Frame Kit vs. Basic Model?

[NYC XYZ]

Say, what's a framekit, exactly, compared to a basic model?

For the SMGTe, the description sounds almost the same, but with an
US$650 difference??

http://hpvelotechnik.com/shopping/preisliste13_e.html


Since I'm upgrading to hydraulic disc brakes, an air shock, etc., why
not just get a framekit?

And if I get the basic bike but upgrade anyway, right there and then,
should I expect to get my standard factory parts as well? I mean, the
basic model comes with V-brakes...I guess I should get them all the
same, right, only not installed on the bike, of course, since I'm
upgrading to the hydro-discs....

 

[G.T.]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Say, what's a framekit, exactly, compared to a basic model?
>
> For the SMGTe, the description sounds almost the same, but with an
> US$650 difference??
>
> http://hpvelotechnik.com/shopping/preisliste13_e.html
>
>
> Since I'm upgrading to hydraulic disc brakes, an air shock, etc., why
> not just get a framekit?
>
> And if I get the basic bike but upgrade anyway, right there and then,
> should I expect to get my standard factory parts as well? I mean, the
> basic model comes with V-brakes...I guess I should get them all the
> same, right, only not installed on the bike, of course, since I'm
> upgrading to the hydro-discs....
>

Why don't you ask tham rather than annoy Usenetizens?

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

 

[Werehatrack]

On 23 Feb 2006 09:16:56 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Say, what's a framekit, exactly, compared to a basic model?

A lot less than a complete bike, both in terms of money and what's
present.

>For the SMGTe, the description sounds almost the same, but with an
>US$650 difference??
>
>http://hpvelotechnik.com/shopping/preisliste13_e.html

Nothing that isn't mentioned is included; at the very least, there are
no shifters, ders, wheels, or brakes. Buying those components new
would likely set you back more than $650 for equivalent kit at retail.

>Since I'm upgrading to hydraulic disc brakes, an air shock, etc., why
>not just get a framekit?

Ders and shifters at a minimum, perhaps?

>And if I get the basic bike but upgrade anyway, right there and then,
>should I expect to get my standard factory parts as well?

No. The upgrades are explicitly priced as *upgrades* to a complete
bike. They are most decidedly not a la carte parts to pick and choose
separately. The upgrade prices represent the *difference* in price
between the standard and upgraded kit.

>I mean, the
>basic model comes with V-brakes...I guess I should get them all the
>same, right, only not installed on the bike, of course, since I'm
>upgrading to the hydro-discs....

I'd contact the seller and see if they have an appropriate package
available.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[NYC XYZ]

Kill two turds with one post.



G.T. wrote:
>
>
> Why don't you ask tham rather than annoy Usenetizens?
>
> Greg
>
> --
> "All my time I spent in heaven
> Revelries of dance and wine
> Waking to the sound of laughter
> Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

 

[gotbent]

snip>
> What would you say is an "appropriate package" for someone who's gonna
> upgrade brakes, derailleurs, and all suspension?
>
>> --
Without going to hpvelo website to check, I would recommend the DT Swiss air
shock. It is way better than either DNM that they offer as stock and the one
they offer as the cheaper upgrade; lighter and easier to adjust and a
couple of hundred bucks more. I replaced the DNM (the one with the coil
spring and secondary air chamber) that was on my Speedmachine with the DT. I
also changed out the Magura Clara calipers with Magura Louise. I hated the
Claras. They squealed and rubbed the rotors and finally the piston seals
started to leak. They work fine with the old Clara levers that were on the
bike. I don't know why Hp offers a Maggy that's used on full-on downhill and
freeride mountain bikes.




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[NYC XYZ]

gotbent wrote:
>
> Without going to hpvelo website to check, I would recommend the DT Swiss air
> shock. It is way better than either DNM that they offer as stock and the one
> they offer as the cheaper upgrade; lighter and easier to adjust and a
> couple of hundred bucks more. I replaced the DNM (the one with the coil
> spring and secondary air chamber) that was on my Speedmachine with the DT.

Yeah, I'm about to get that Swiss Air shock, too. What do you think of
a MEKS AC upgrade on the front? Same easier to adjust advantage, too.
I'm most likely to go whole hog after all, for all Pete Clinch's advise
(oops!), but I'm curious as to opinions.

> I
> also changed out the Magura Clara calipers with Magura Louise. I hated the
> Claras. They squealed and rubbed the rotors and finally the piston seals
> started to leak. They work fine with the old Clara levers that were on the
> bike. I don't know why Hp offers a Maggy that's used on full-on downhill and
> freeride mountain bikes.

What do you think about the Magura Marta hydraulic disc brakes?

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[NYC XYZ]

Werehatrack wrote:
>
>
> If you order the bike with the upgrades, the dealer will most likely
> place the order with the manufacturer for delivery with those upgraded
> parts already included, rather than taking an assembled unit from
> stock and replacing the components.

Oh, actually, he's got the bike already. You know, the ol' "display
model deal" LBSes do...though it looks new enough. He's got it already
upgraded, modestly, and I was like, hmm, why not just go all the
way....

> If you talk to the dealer, I
> suspect you'll discover that the upgrades can only be ordered at the
> upgrade price when the bike order is placed; to add them on later most
> likely will cost more unless the dealer is confident of being able to
> recover enough from the sale of the take-offs to cover the difference.

Thanks for the tip...I'll have to find out now; he went by that
official HP Velo price list for the bike he currently has (just the one
SMGTe), so I'm expecting just those prices for the upgrades.

> Not get them to begin with, if the ordering process is as I suspect it
> must be.

Ah, but, for example, this bike's already got the V-brakes and standard
front and rear suspension on it...if I upgrade to discs, etc., can I
therefore expect to receive the V-brakes and suspension systems as
well? He's charging the full basic bike price, on top of the upgrades
-- again, all from HP Velo's own list.

> Chances are good that if you ordered a frameset, the dealer would
> order that from the factory. Depending upon a number of factors,
> though, the dealer might be willing to make you a deal of some sort on
> the showroom model with bits removed or replaced...but you'll have to
> discuss that with them; speculation is pointless.

Well, I just want to know what's "industry practice," is all, before he
either BSes me -- not that I have any reason to distrust this
particular fellow -- or I ask something so exorbitant it borders on
insult.

> If that's your plan, then the frameset seems like the appropriate
> choice. You'll still end up discarding the rear shock and the front
> fork, and you probably stand to do better selling the removed bits on
> eBay than trying to get a price reduction for their removal from the
> package. (Unless that's a 26" front wheel, though, the stock fork
> will probably bring very little at auction, and even if it's
> mtb-useful, that model of fork is not highly prized for mtb use.)

Ah, I was actually thinking of just having the parts around for my own
possible future use.

Hmm...I hate to bug this guy with all these "constant" changes, but I
guess here's another "stop the presses!" order from me.

Then again, it's US$4,500.00 he's getting...sigh! I wonder if the
price will ever go down on an SMGTe bike....

> --
> Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
> Some gardening required to reply via email.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[gotbent]

"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> gotbent wrote:
>>
>> Without going to hpvelo website to check, I would recommend the DT Swiss
>> air
>> shock. It is way better than either DNM that they offer as stock and the
>> one
>> they offer as the cheaper upgrade; lighter and easier to adjust and a
>> couple of hundred bucks more. I replaced the DNM (the one with the coil
>> spring and secondary air chamber) that was on my Speedmachine with the
>> DT.
>
> Yeah, I'm about to get that Swiss Air shock, too. What do you think of
> a MEKS AC upgrade on the front? Same easier to adjust advantage, too.
> I'm most likely to go whole hog after all, for all Pete Clinch's advise
> (oops!), but I'm curious as to opinions.
>
I have a Speedmachine. The front susp fork is 'built-in', not an add on so I
don't have experience with the MEKS, or Ballistic or whatever else has been
scavanged from the MTB world. White Bros. builds what is considered to be a
fine after market 20" susp fork, suitable for single and tandem bents for
about 700USD. Also no first hand experience with one.

>> I
>> also changed out the Magura Clara calipers with Magura Louise. I hated
>> the
>> Claras. They squealed and rubbed the rotors and finally the piston seals
>> started to leak. They work fine with the old Clara levers that were on
>> the
>> bike. I don't know why Hp offers a Maggy that's used on full-on downhill
>> and
>> freeride mountain bikes.
>
> What do you think about the Magura Marta hydraulic disc brakes?

Just Clara and Louise knowledge. Clara=old=rubs, squeaks. Julie ok so
far.There is a mtb review site that you could check out for reviews on all
kind of stuff like disk brakes and lights and so forth.
>
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[Werehatrack]

On 23 Feb 2006 13:45:14 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Then again, it's US$4,500.00 he's getting...sigh! I wonder if the
>price will ever go down on an SMGTe bike....

An indelicate observation: The resale price of *any* new vehicle,
human-powered or otherwise, tends to take a dramatic dip as soon as
the rear wheel crosses the plane of the exit door of the dealership.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Say, what's a framekit, exactly, compared to a basic model?

For an upright bicycle, a frame kit is usually the bare frame and
possibly the fork (and headset) since all other components are
"standardized" to some extent and are readily available from multiple
sources.

Recumbent frame kits typically include the seat,
handlebars/riser/steering linkage, and chain management devices since
these are usually proprietary and not interchangeable between
manufacturers and/or models.

--
Tom Sherman

 

[Peter Clinch]

Tom Keats wrote:

> I for one am not annoyed. But I am beginning to get the
> impression recumbents are more about [thinking aboug] buying
> than riding.

Sad, as that's IMHO a bad way to go about it. The way to make decisions
IME is best left down to Actually Riding. It's a bit like hi-fi, you
can spend weeks and weeks going through options and features on paper,
or just spend a morning listening to a few. The first is what a lot of
people /do/, the second is easier and also works better...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Tom Keats wrote:

> Well, with the confusing myriad of options with which NYC XYZ
> appears to be confronted, I guess it's understandable.
> But I think it does serve to illustrate how recumbent bicycles
> are so complicatedly un-standard.

Yes, but OTOH no more so than cars. You don't buy a Ford Taurus, end of
story, you select the model from the range and then you decide on
options. People seem to manage with that, and have done for years.

Is coffee really /that/ much harder to buy because Starbucks give you
options beyond cream and sugar?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Edward Dolan]

"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> I for one am not annoyed. But I am beginning to get the
>> impression recumbents are more about [thinking aboug] buying
>> than riding.
>
> Sad, as that's IMHO a bad way to go about it. The way to make decisions
> IME is best left down to Actually Riding. It's a bit like hi-fi, you can
> spend weeks and weeks going through options and features on paper, or just
> spend a morning listening to a few. The first is what a lot of people
> /do/, the second is easier and also works better...
>
> Pete.

Old Pete of the UK is out to lunch as always.

Relying on yourself to the exclusion of outside data and opinion is
ignorance of the first rank. You must always get as much information as you
can get from others and then digest it as best you can. I would never rely
on myself to have a correct opinion about anything. I am way too smart for
that. Nor do I trust my own experience least of all.

I urge all of you ignoramuses to never rely on yourselves. That way lies
madness. It would be best if you came to the Great Ed Dolan to get his
opinion, but you should also get many other opinions. The one thing never to
do is to think that you know what is best - because the likelihood is that
you don't.

That is why there are many publications and other sources available for you
to read and use as you see fit. I would never think about buying any hi-fi
gear without getting lots of data and other opinions. Good grief - this
thinking and doing for yourself is strickly for idiots.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

 

[Jon Meinecke]

> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> [...] recumbent bicycles are so complicatedly un-standard.

With apologies to Euell Gibbons: "Have you looked at a recumbent
bicycle lately? Many parts are standard..." %^) Recumbent purchasing
may be like _Stalking Wild Asparagus_!

But, there are a number of "off-the-rack" recumbents available. Many
people want to go into a store, ride a bike, and buy that bike as
configured. Others want to tweak and perfect a custom configuration.
Nothing wrong with either approach. Some vendors/manufacturers cater
to one approach or the other.

Configuring and buying a recumbent is only as complicated as one
makes it,-- well, somewhat more complicated because of often
limited availability.

"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote
> [...]
> Is coffee really /that/ much harder to buy because Starbucks give you
> options beyond cream and sugar?

To buy, perhaps somewhat harder,-- more information to communicate,
more possibility of misunderstanding and more possibility of fulfillment
error. I asked for a "double-what's-it-extra-foamy" not an
"extra-what's-it-
double-foamy"... %^)

With more choices, to decide *what* to buy,-- well Toffler wrote about
this 30+ years ago... %^P

Jon Meinecke

 

[Buck]

NYC XYZ wrote:

> Oh, actually, he's got the bike already. You know, the ol' "display
> model deal" LBSes do...though it looks new enough. He's got it already
> upgraded, modestly, and I was like, hmm, why not just go all the
> way....

> Ah, but, for example, this bike's already got the V-brakes and standard
> front and rear suspension on it...if I upgrade to discs, etc., can I
> therefore expect to receive the V-brakes and suspension systems as
> well? He's charging the full basic bike price, on top of the upgrades
> -- again, all from HP Velo's own list.

You are forgetting the costs of labor to install all of these upgrades.
The labor has already been spent on configuring the bike as it
currently sits. Often when they upgrade parts at point of sale, the
upgrades are being charged to you for near their cost with little or
nothing thrown in to cover the additional labor.

What labor is involved? Well, you mention suspension and upgrades to
disc brakes. They have to order, receive and prep all of the parts. The
new front shock will likely need the steering tube cut. If you went
with cable-actuated discs, they may be able to re-use the cables, but
most likely they will have to cut new cables and housings for the
brakes. Since the sizes of the previous cables are pretty specific, the
"old" ones will likely end up in the trash. If you went with hydraulic,
then they have no choice but to run new hydraulic tubing.

Once the installation process is complete, then everything has to be
adjusted so it works properly. In all, you are talking about several
hours worth of additional labor that has to be paid for. Remember, the
initial costs for configuring the bike were already added into the
price and the original labor for setup is essentially lost.

Don't begrude the dealer keeping the parts. It helps him recoup the
additional cost of getting your butt on the bike. He hopes that later
you will come in and buy something more profitable like additional
upgrades and accessories.

-Buck

 

[Mike Reed]

Edward Dolan wrote:
We on ARBR no
> longer have any interest in uprights, knowing how uncomfortable they are,
> but it may be that in time many of you presently on uprights will come
> around to recumbents.

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work. You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

I'd like to have a bent one day I think, but not as a replacement for
anything. I think it would be cool to get a faring and really tear it
up on the flats. For the most part though, I like being able to hop
hazards, cheat curbs, trackstand, climb Jester (Austin), etc on my
upright (in complete comfort).

-Mike

 

[NYC XYZ]

Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> Yes, but OTOH no more so than cars. You don't buy a Ford Taurus, end of
> story, you select the model from the range and then you decide on
> options. People seem to manage with that, and have done for years.

Oh God...when I finally have a family, etc., I'll see you on
alt.rec.cars.duh....

> Is coffee really /that/ much harder to buy because Starbucks give you
> options beyond cream and sugar?

Actually, yes -- I had no idea until Starbucks (blush) that folks had
cream in their coffee!

> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Mike Reed wrote:

> I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
> my Aeron at work.

So if it's peerlessly comfortable you go to sleep on it, and have
similar saddles and handrests in place of the chairs in your living
room? Doubt it... My uprights are comfortable: I use a Brompton for
more trips by number than I use my 'bent, but the 'bent is *more*
comfortable and that's a fact. The longer the journey the bigger the
advantage, even though the Brompton is /not/ uncomfortable.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Jon Meinecke wrote:
> "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote
>>Is coffee really /that/ much harder to buy because Starbucks give you
>>options beyond cream and sugar?

> To buy, perhaps somewhat harder,-- more information to communicate,
> more possibility of misunderstanding and more possibility of fulfillment
> error. I asked for a "double-what's-it-extra-foamy" not an
> "extra-what's-it-double-foamy"... %^)

Though the fact remains that I can walk in and say "Black coffee
please!" and get a black coffee PDQ...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[NYC XYZ]

Buck wrote:
>
>
> You are forgetting the costs of labor to install all of these upgrades.
> The labor has already been spent on configuring the bike as it
> currently sits. Often when they upgrade parts at point of sale, the
> upgrades are being charged to you for near their cost with little or
> nothing thrown in to cover the additional labor.
>
> What labor is involved? Well, you mention suspension and upgrades to
> disc brakes. They have to order, receive and prep all of the parts. The
> new front shock will likely need the steering tube cut. If you went
> with cable-actuated discs, they may be able to re-use the cables, but
> most likely they will have to cut new cables and housings for the
> brakes. Since the sizes of the previous cables are pretty specific, the
> "old" ones will likely end up in the trash. If you went with hydraulic,
> then they have no choice but to run new hydraulic tubing.

Well, sure, and there's his electric bills and rent, on top of it
all...but at what point does that become "my responsibility" as a
customer? You charge what you charge; I pay what I can afford. The
issue here is whether paying for a bike that includes a fork, then
upgrading to a better fork for more money, means (or should mean) that
I keep the old fork or get a discount. Someone else mentioned that the
cost of the upgrade is actually cheaper than getting the upgrade later
on, "separately," because that discount for the old fork, etc., is
"built-in" to the cost of the upgrade at the initial POS...and that
sounds reasonable, if that's how things really work...again, I don't
know; just wondering, but seriously wondering, as we're talking big
bucks here (for me, anyway).

> Once the installation process is complete, then everything has to be
> adjusted so it works properly. In all, you are talking about several
> hours worth of additional labor that has to be paid for. Remember, the
> initial costs for configuring the bike were already added into the
> price and the original labor for setup is essentially lost.

Well, this is what I'm wondering -- the labor is always factored into
the cost, isn't it? Does any bike dealer list labor as a separate line
item when selling a bike, a whole bike? HP Velo's own official price
list, previously linked, explicitly states that prices include labor,
installation!

> Don't begrude the dealer keeping the parts. It helps him recoup the
> additional cost of getting your butt on the bike. He hopes that later
> you will come in and buy something more profitable like additional
> upgrades and accessories.

Please believe me when I say that I am paying full retail as it is. I
did not haggle him at all, and he's going out of business soon! But
fair is fair: if I'm paying for the option which comes with a fork, and
I elect to upgrade the fork, well, why should he keep the old fork
while charging me for the option which comes with a fork?

I'm not trying to penny-pinch here; just hate feeling taken advantage
of. If this is industry practice, well, I guess I can tolerate it
better, perhaps -- but that's why I ask y'all. I want to know. If
you're paying $$$$ for a whole bike, and then pay some more $$$$ for
all the upgrades, either you'd just get the framekit and pay for the
upgrades or get the whole bike and keep "the old stuff" or get the
whole bike and get a discount if the dealer keeps "the old stuff."
Does that sound so controversial?

I'm asking in earnest here; not being rhetorical at all. Like I said,
I'd rather hash this out with you all now than ask him later and make
it seem like I'm trying to take advantage of him when I'm just being
logical about it, I think.

> -Buck