Floyd's Out...

Bill Sornson said:

http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.

Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
five -- on his skin?)

It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of, what,
three days?)...

Bill S.

Bill,

If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

The most unsurprising thing is, after all this doping charge came
against him, his own website went supposedly 'down', relating the cause
on some other basis that can be rationalised in this situation. I
wonder how the folks would react after all this... 'we worked our ass
and made a frickkin website for u and u doped on us??'

Its a sad battle lost. Good bye Floyd.

Bill Sornson said:

http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

I also lift and once lifted seriously. The stories of 'roid rage' are
greatly exaggerated. I'll add that I too have been somewhat irritated
when tired if annoyed when I cease the endurance event. I don't think
that particular incident (which I noted too) is any real evidence.
However, that article stated that the test was definitely external. I'm
guessing there are such method to eval that, but I don't know them.

Personally, I think his helmet was on too tight. That'll put anybody
into a rage <g>

-paul

this is normal-helps get air into the lungs

bicycle_disciple said:

Bill Sornson said:

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.

Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
five -- on his skin?)

If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

I saw one thrown bottle. Good for Floyd, he defended himself in the
scrum. If you throw "bottles" (i.e., more than the one I saw), you get
in trouble with the org.

Same for the yelling; I read of one such incident, not a string of
them.

Lance used to offend some with his agressiveness. You can't be a teddy
bear and win the Tour (unless B. Hinault hurts his knee?). --D-y

Quoted message said:

bicycle_disciple said:

Bill Sornson said:

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange to
me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the moment.

Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch -- or
five -- on his skin?)

If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

I saw one thrown bottle. Good for Floyd, he defended himself in the
scrum. If you throw "bottles" (i.e., more than the one I saw), you get
in trouble with the org.

Same for the yelling; I read of one such incident, not a string of
them.

Lance used to offend some with his agressiveness. You can't be a teddy
bear and win the Tour (unless B. Hinault hurts his knee?). --D-y

Yup.

Trash talking aggressiveness is part of most sports, they just try to
sanitize it for TV.

His testosterone level was elevated, but it wan't off the chart, and no
where near the levels of some pro bodybuilders.

I find the jury to still be out, because AFAIK, you can't just rub on
some testosterone cream in the morning and expect an instant boost.

Quoted message said:

From what I've heard, it needs to build up in the system. I might be

wrong about that. Why are his other samples on other days fine? It
raises an eyebrow.

It's probably a French conspiracy. Somebody put a testosterone mickey
into his mussette bag that day. :-P

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Bill Sornson said:

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

Quoted message said:

Hindsight is 20/20.

I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary) (meaningless)
point?

Bill Sornson said:

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

Hindsight is 20/20.

JT

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Bill Sornson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Bill Sornson said:

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

Quoted message said:

Hindsight is 20/20.

I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary) (meaningless)
point?

No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

JT

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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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bicycle_disciple said:

If you're talking about Landis, then I have to fully support what you
saw. Time and time again, I've been seeing and reading about his
aggressiveness on the stages. Not only has he thrown water bottles at
folks as shown on t.v, but he has also reportedly abused other riders
in the heat of hill climbs. He smiles and seems so good natured in the
interviews, but unfortunately, he's not the person we think he is.

Oh... I don't know how much experience you have at racing bikes, but
aggressive behavior is common rather than the exception. Besides that
it is often smart tactics, if you can intimidate your opponents and
follow it up with your legs. I believe Lance was more aggressive
towards his competitors than Floyd.

Hey, it's a battle you know...

Paul Cassel said:

I also lift and once lifted seriously. The stories of 'roid rage' are
greatly exaggerated.

s/greatly/slightly

For a bit, I had the theory that stockpiling testosterone
helped with lifting. So I would only have sex once a week.

I can attest from personal experience that by the end of
each week I was a hell of a lot more angry and aggressive
than at the beginning of the week.

And the differences it made in training efficiency were not
noticeable at all.

I never tried it to increase competitive aggression, though.

Quoted message said:

Personally, I think his helmet was on too tight. That'll put anybody
into a rage <g>

Unfortunately, it seems his head wasn't screwed on tight enough.
Until he admits it we'll never know the real truth.

--Blair

In article <[email hidden]>,

Blair P. Houghton said:

Unfortunately, it seems his head wasn't screwed on tight enough.
Until he admits it we'll never know the real truth.

He will probably never admit anything.
In today's pro bicycling world, who Landis would be if stripped of his
Tour de France title ? ( BTW the first time a Tour winner would be
disqualified for doping.) Would be remembered as the guy who cheated,
the former domestique of a famous champion...
So besides his professional future at stake, he would also be loosing
the hefty money prize that comes with the Tour win: 450,000 Euros, which
at today's inter-bank rate means 577,000 US Dollars, and change.
For this kind of money and considering what else is threatened,
admission is probably out of question.

Paul Cassel said:

Bill Sornson said:

http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

I also lift and once lifted seriously. The stories of 'roid rage' are
greatly exaggerated. I'll add that I too have been somewhat irritated
when tired if annoyed when I cease the endurance event. I don't think
that particular incident (which I noted too) is any real evidence.
However, that article stated that the test was definitely external. I'm
guessing there are such method to eval that, but I don't know them.

Personally, I think his helmet was on too tight. That'll put anybody
into a rage <g>

-paul

Dear Paul,

Dunno about testosterone, but prednisone still comes with the same
cheerful FDA warnings that I read over 30 years ago:

"Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
corticosteroids."

Google for the phrase "frank psychotic manifestations" to see more. I
saw all that I wanted to when a friend needed prednisone for lupus
treatment.

(Pregnant women naturally produce impressive amounts of extra
cortico-steroids. Unusual behavior episodes are common, or so I hear
from men brave enough to stay near them for months at a time.)

Anabolic steroids have about the same effect. Not everyone develops the
problem, and even those who do develop it won't show it all the time,
but it's awfully impressive when something minor touches off a massive
outburst.

Talk to some doctors whose patients found out the hard way about the
psychological effects of steroids.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

"Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
corticosteroids."

Looks like a description of Pantani at the end...

In article <[email hidden]>,

M. Bakunin said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

"Psychic derangements may appear when corticosteroids are used, ranging
from euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and severe
depression, to frank psychotic manifestations. Also, existing emotional
instability or psychotic tendencies may be aggravated by
corticosteroids."

Looks like a description of Pantani at the end...

I wonder if this stuff was available in Ty Cobb's day.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Bill Sornson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

Quoted message said:

Hindsight is 20/20.

I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary)
(meaningless) point?

No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

God, you really /must/ be dense. (I was convinced it's all just an annoying
act.)

Read what you wrote. Read my reply. HTH

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Sornson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Bill Sornson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there
>> was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

> Hindsight is 20/20.

I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary)
(meaningless) point?

No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

God, you really /must/ be dense. (I was convinced it's all just an annoying
act.)

Read what you wrote. Read my reply. HTH

The weather must be really hot 'n humid wherever you are.

It certainly is here. It's a good evening to find a nice,
quiet, undiscovered, alfresco bistro somewhere in the shade,
kick back with some light dining and a cappucino or thirty,
and maybe scan through the weekend news rag. Bust free of
the 'puter for a while.

If I don't do that, I'm gonna be irritable too.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Sornson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:56:20 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:12:38 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>> I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win
>>> there was an incident that made me at least a little suspicious.

{Note description was snipped}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Hindsight is 20/20.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I said so at the time. What's your (empty) (unnecessary)
> (meaningless) point?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No particular point. What's yours with "I said so at the time"?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

God, you really /must/ be dense. (I was convinced it's all just an
annoying act.)

Read what you wrote. Read my reply. HTH

Quoted message said:

The weather must be really hot 'n humid wherever you are.

It certainly is here. It's a good evening to find a nice,
quiet, undiscovered, alfresco bistro somewhere in the shade,
kick back with some light dining and a cappucino or thirty,
and maybe scan through the weekend news rag. Bust free of
the 'puter for a while.

If I don't do that, I'm gonna be irritable too.

Well, Tom, he wrote "Hindsight is 20/20". I took that to mean it's easy to
say I noticed Landis' strange behavior now, after the fact. So I replied
that I in fact mentioned noticing the behavior at the time (told my friend
Miles, among others). Seems pretty straightforward, yet he feigned (I
assume) STILL not understanding. (There's a little history here, you see.)

The weather here is lovely, thanks. Hot spell seems to be over; nice cool
evening breeze after moderate daytime temps.

Movie on tap; otherwise your suggestion sounds inviting.

Bill

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

The weather must be really hot 'n humid wherever you are.

It certainly is here. It's a good evening to find a nice,
quiet, undiscovered, alfresco bistro somewhere in the shade,
kick back with some light dining and a cappucino or thirty,
and maybe scan through the weekend news rag. Bust free of
the 'puter for a while.

If I don't do that, I'm gonna be irritable too.

Well, Tom, he wrote "Hindsight is 20/20". I took that to mean it's easy to
say I noticed Landis' strange behavior now, after the fact. So I replied
that I in fact mentioned noticing the behavior at the time (told my friend
Miles, among others). Seems pretty straightforward, yet he feigned (I
assume) STILL not understanding. (There's a little history here, you see.)

I see. I'm not comin' down on ya. I just thought maybe
you were a little unhappy or [censored]-off, and just wanted
to inject some cheer.

Anyways, in hindsight, I guess Floyd's miraculous come-back
was "strange behaviour" too. I didn't suspect anything at
the time, but in retrospect ...

Quoted message said:

The weather here is lovely, thanks. Hot spell seems to be over; nice cool
evening breeze after moderate daytime temps.

Movie on tap; otherwise your suggestion sounds inviting.

I love the heat, and thrive on it. But after a while it does get
old, and I start missing that good ol' Pacific Northwest liquid
sunshine. What really bugs me is when the weather locks into /any/
state -- rain or shine, and goes on and on and on that way, for weeks
on end. Thats when a lot of tempers (including my own) get rankled.
I daresay, we could use a little rain, just to break the monotony.

Incidentally, I understand high (natural) levels of testosterone
causes male pattern baldness. I note Floyd is pretty foliculary
replete, for a blondie.

Discussions of hormones always remind me of the All in the Family
episode where Archie downright ordered Edith to hurry up and get
her menopause over with. Heh ... "hermones" ... "groinicologist" ...

Enjoy yer flick.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://sports.excite.com/news/08052006/v1038.html

I hate to mention this, but at the end of his epic stage win there was an
incident that made me at least a little suspicious. As people crowded
around and he stripped off his helmet and jersey, he seemed /really/ angry
and aggressive -- even throwing a water bottle at someone (not at all in a
good-natured way).

This was kind of at the edge of the television picture (off to side of
screen), and AFAIK no one commented on it. Just seemed a little strange
to me -- like he was too jacked up to behave normally or celebrate the
moment.

Theory: he accidentally OD'd on the stuff. (Fell asleep with a patch --
or five -- on his skin?)

It's too freaking bad. Was a great story while it lasted (all of, what,
three days?)...

It was a terrific story, but now it's just depressing.

Theories abound. It's possible he was doping all along, maybe taking
Epitestosterone to mask the Testosterone. But, in his depression after
stage 16 (and while he had too much to drink) he neglected something. Maybe
he kept the patch on too long, maybe he didn't take the epi -- who can tell.

Remember there was the T-Mobile rider on his wheel up until partway through
the last climb. That rider was just drafting, not working. If he had been
able to hang on to the end, it would have been very natural for the T-Mobile
rider to come around at the end and win the stage. If he does, Landis would
likely not be tested (they test the yellow jersey, the stage winner, and two
other cyclists -- I don't know whether they are truly chosen randomly, or
whether the officials can use their own "randomness"😉.

Since you pass the test if your ratio is less than 4 to 1 (which means they
don't check for synthetics), I'm guessing a lot of the top guys are closer
to 3.9 to 1 than they are to the 1:1 population average. None of the other
riders seem to be "shocked". Oscar P's been particularly quiet and
supportive. Probably just friendship.