first wheel build

3jso-<< After reading the responses I realized that I didn't specify 36h when I spoke with nashbar.
That could explain why their numbers where higher. Also DT has rim diameter for Ma3 at 609 and
spocalc has 607. Anyway, Thanks for responding to my post. I 'm still not sure what I'll do but I'm
leaning towards Jim's numbers and Alex's suggestion on using butted spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

With Wheelsmith rods it is 608mm, what we use.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

_don't_! i assumed 32.

use 291, 292 for 36 spokes - if you're using the 605 erd.

use 292, 294 if you're using peter's 608 erd.

Joe Salva said:

After reading the responses I realized that I didn't specify 36h when I spoke with nashbar. That
could explain why their numbers where higher. Also DT has rim diameter for Ma3 at 609 and spocalc
has 607. Anyway, Thanks for responding to my post. I 'm still not sure what I'll do but I'm
leaning towards Jim's numbers and Alex's suggestion on using butted spokes.

Joe

"Joe Salva" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

After reading the responses I realized that I didn't specify 36h when I spoke with nashbar. That
could explain why their numbers where higher. Also DT has rim diameter for Ma3 at 609 and spocalc
has 607. Anyway, Thanks for responding to my post. I 'm still not sure what I'll do but I'm
leaning towards Jim's numbers and Alex's suggestion on using butted spokes.

Joe

DIY: measure the drop from the bead diameter, 622-mm, to the eyelet, 2x, for ERD. remember that
spokes are sold in 2-mm steps so don't get too anal. i remember reading Mavic changed the
MA-3 to improve spoke pull-out resistance & eyelet cracking. maybe you got some of the new
ones?. search RBT. i remember reading DT measure the spokes lengths differently, maybe to
the top of the hook rather than the inside?. more searching. 'yes' to the butted spokes,
even consider the 2.0/1.7. FWIW, i swore off DT after a FU wheel build & am now using
WheelSmith and am going to give Sapim a try. after about a year, 2000-mi, the wheel started
breaking spokes: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm> yes, this was my fault for
not paying attention to how the hook seated in the hub but i never had problems before, 20
years, so it was below the radar.

bc-cletta-<< remember that spokes are sold in 2-mm steps so don't get too anal. >><BR><BR>

Really?

I have every spoke length from about 260mm thru 304mm, every mm...mailorder sales do not the
'standard' make.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

bc-cletta-<< remember that spokes are sold in 2-mm steps so don't get too anal. >><BR><BR>

Really?

I have every spoke length from about 260mm thru 304mm, every mm...mailorder sales do not the
'standard' make.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

okie-dokie. you run a full service shop. how about "typically sold"? my LBS sells them in 2-mm
steps. according to my TBW, a 300-mm spoke will elongate 1.24-mm w/ 180-kg load. do you adjust
for this? i use 'SpokCalc' and it does not.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

bc-cletta-<< okie-dokie. you run a full service shop. how about "typically sold"? my LBS sells
them in 2-mm steps. >><BR><BR>

they are being lazy..most spoke suppliers I know of sell in 1mm increments.

Elongation of the spoke doesn't take into consideration that I like to have the end of the
spoke at the outside of the nipple when it is tensioned.

first time i built with revo's, i ignored elongation, and those things stretch a /lot/. i found that
i couldn't get them up to proper tension because they'd run out of thread, and they twist so bad,
you can't brute force that final half turn like you can on thicker spokes. i can email a spoke
calculator that allows for elongation if you're interested.

Quoted message said:

To try to increase tension to make up for not enough threads in the nipple is asking for
trouble. My point is that spokes are not sold in 2mm increments to bike shops or MO, so they
don't have to be sold to you. Do you go to shoe stores that only have whole sizes of shoes? When
ya need a 10 1/2?

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Elongation of the spoke doesn't take into consideration that I like to have the end of the spoke at
the outside of the nipple when it is tensioned. To try to increase tension to make up for not
enough threads in the nipple is asking for trouble.

Indeed, since you presumably want decent thread engagement even at the start of tensioning, the idea
that elongation can be relied upon is obviously demented.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:
: My point is that spokes are not sold in 2mm increments to bike shops or MO, so they don't have
: to be sold to you. Do you go to shoe stores that only have whole sizes of shoes? When ya ne ed
: a 10 1/2?

it's been my experience that most LBSs don't stock many spokes (only 1 in my area has a reasonable
selection). even most MO only do even sizes for large amounts of their selections and you're really
screwd if you want black spokes.

eg, i never could find a 281mm DT 14/15 black spoke local or from the obvious online stores.

i just went through this (i built 5 wheels this winter -- hopefully all for for a while). if you
really have all sizes i encourage you to go online with it as i & probably a lot of others would
take advantage of it.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

David Reuteler said:

it's been my experience that most LBSs don't stock many spokes (only 1 in my area has a reasonable
selection). even most MO only do even sizes for large amounts of their selections and you're
really screwd if you want black spokes.

eg, i never could find a 281mm DT 14/15 black spoke local or from the obvious online stores.

i just went through this (i built 5 wheels this winter -- hopefully all for for a while). if you
really have all sizes i encourage you to go online with it as i & probably a lot of others would
take advantage of it.

We try to stock all sizes, from the 130s on up, because we deal with a lot of unusual wheels. Spoke
inventory is a big problem because there are so many sizes.

We attempt to keep all sizes in stock in 2.0/1.8 double bubble, and most of the longer sizes in
2.34/1.8/2.0 triple. We also stock most available sizes of Wheelsmith Aero 1.8, and some more exotic
DT sizes. These spokes fill both sides of a 4 foot wide industrial shelving unit, probably 32 linear
feet of shelf space.

These spokes we sell by the piece, as many or as few as you want.

If we were to start stocking black, that would double the amount of space and capital we need to
devote to spokes, all for the sake of cosmetics. No way.

If you want black, we're glad to get them for you but you need to buy full boxes, 'cause we've got
no use or space for the leftovers if we were to break up a special-ordered box for you.

You can special order spokes by the box at:

harriscyclery.netpage.cfmOpen ↗

Sheldon "Reality" Brown +-------------------------------------------+
| Good judgment comes from experience, | and experience comes from bad judgment. | --Fred Brook |
+-------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote:
: If we were to start stocking black, that would double the amount of space and capital we need to
: devote to spokes, all for the sake of cosmetics. No way.

well, for me that can be a deal-breaker and a not insignificant factor. if i'm ordering replacement
spokes for a black-spoked wheel i don't think it's reasonable to use silver. in my case i had a rear
wheel that had black spokes and was building a front (with a disc brake) to match. cosmetic factors
are not insignificant or trivial considerations once you're stuck with 'em.

soooo, i used an even size instead. worked out fine (if it hadn't i'd be using silver spokes).

i just don't think peter's version of reality fits what's out there at least unless i can only have
my shoes in brown.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Elongation of the spoke doesn't take into consideration that I like to have the end of the spoke
at the outside of the nipple when it is tensioned. To try to increase tension to make up for not
enough threads in the nipple is asking for trouble.

the idea is that in use under "normal" tension, the spoke stretches over 1-mm so maybe it does by
giving you the look you want? the textbook answer is that you want 5 threads engaged, about 2-1/2-
mm. DT shows 9-10-mm threaded spoke. so it looks like you have about 6-mm to play with. a person
could safely, or maybe should, start with a spoke 1-mm shorter than the trig results if they want
the spoke flush with the nipple. 'SpoCalc' gives you lengths to the 0.1-mm. i consider this an
unreasonable, misleading level of accuracy when you take into consideration std lengths are 1-mm
steps, _sometimes_ sold in 2-mm steps and stretch another 1-mm in use. the OP bought into it and
listed the spoke lengths to the 0.1-mm. i have not used the Blue Pig or the WS calculator. do
either consider elongation?

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

bc-cletta-<< okie-dokie. you run a full service shop. how about "typically sold"? my LBS sells
them in 2-mm steps. >><BR><BR>

they are being lazy..most spoke suppliers I know of sell in 1mm increments.

Elongation of the spoke doesn't take into consideration that I like to have the end of the
spoke at the outside of the nipple when it is tensioned.

first time i built with revo's, i ignored elongation, and those things stretch a /lot/. i found
that i couldn't get them up to proper tension because they'd run out of thread, and they twist so
bad, you can't brute force that final half turn like you can on thicker spokes. i can email a
spoke calculator that allows for elongation if you're interested.

i've used both WS XL14 & DT Revolution, both 2.0-1.5, and did not have the elongation problem.
"hell yes" to the wind-up. wouldn't it be easier to just subtract 1-mm mentally?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To try to increase tension to make up for not enough threads in the nipple is asking for
trouble. My point is that spokes are not sold in 2mm increments to bike shops or MO, so they
don't have to be sold to you. Do you go to shoe stores that only have whole sizes of shoes? When
ya need a 10 1/2?

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:
: My point is that spokes are not sold in 2mm increments to bike shops or MO, so they don't have
: to be sold to you. Do you go to shoe stores that only have whole sizes of shoes? When ya ne ed a
: 10 1/2?

David Reuteler said:

it's been my experience that most LBSs don't stock many spokes (only 1 in my area has a reasonable
selection). even most MO only do even sizes for large amounts of their selections and you're
really screwd if you want black spokes.

eg, i never could find a 281mm DT 14/15 black spoke local or from the obvious online stores. i
just went through this (i built 5 wheels this winter -- hopefully all for for a while). if you
really have all sizes i encourage you to go online with it as i & probably a lot of others would
take advantage of it.

I know several shops (like us) who stock every mm in 14DB stainless. Usually from about 285
through 305.

I also know a lot of shops (like us) who are less than excited about black spokes. No faster, no
stronger, increases inventory cost with no more sales. . .

But we do sell them with overnight delivery from our usual supplier. Most shops develop a
relationship with a nearby supplier who can deliver promptly and that guy gets the bulk of the small
pats business based on service.

I guess I'm saying that with a 24 hour window any shop should be able to handle that order.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

bc-cletta-<< okie-dokie. you run a full service shop. how about "typically sold"? my LBS sells
them in 2-mm steps. >><BR><BR>

they are being lazy..most spoke suppliers I know of sell in 1mm increments.

Elongation of the spoke doesn't take into consideration that I like to have the end of the
spoke at the outside of the nipple when it is tensioned. To try to increase tension to make
up for not enough threads in the nipple is asking for trouble. My point is that spokes are
not sold in 2mm increments to bike shops or MO, so they don't have to be sold to you. Do you
go to shoe stores that only have whole sizes of shoes? When ya need a 10 1/2?

very few people have equally sized feet. _true_ full service would be to offer left and
right shoes.

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote:
: But we do sell them with overnight delivery from our usual supplier. Most shops develop a
: relationship with a nearby supplier who can deliver promptly and that guy gets the bulk of the
: small pats business based on service.
:
: I guess I'm saying that with a 24 hour window any shop should be able to handle that order.

not a single one of the shops around could or was willing. in every single case i was quoted at
least a week (a normal QBP order and all but once the entire box of 72 -- i needed 18 per) and two
of these were shops that in most other respects i'm quite happy with.

looks like i'll have to fire up the crank powered phone (mine's not wood- powered peter) in the
future. haven't used it in years. hope i can remember how to talk to a human.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]