First time marathoner

Quoted message said:

I also don't understand why you'd be running 18 miles 3 weeks ago
(late august), when your marathon is not until december. I don't know
of any marathon training program that is like that.

Some of the more advanced programs have 18 milers starting 17 weeks pre-
marathon.

Phil M.

--
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make
them all yourself." ­Martin Vanbee

Quoted message said:

I also don't understand why you'd be running 18 miles 3 weeks ago (late
august), when your marathon is not until december. I don't know of any
marathon training program that is like that.

I think it's called a "long run". I run 18-22 miles in training, and I'm not
even marathon training. But then, it's only a little over 2hrs for me.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Janithor said:

I'm midway through training, started in May, the marathon is in
December. I'm up to 40 miles a week now. I've been thinking about
adding a day of speed work to my weekly routine. My times are horribly
slow, although I think I can finish a marathon, I did an 18-miler 3
weeks ago.

For the most part, I'd recommend capping your long runs at about 2-2 1/2 hrs
until you're closer to the race.

Quoted message said:

I ran 13.5 miles on Sunday, my pace was ~10:30/mile, and I
was beat when I finished.

I'm about 25 lbs overweight, and my times are much slower than when I
was in high school 20 years ago.

I guess you've figured out that there's a connection between the two, right ?
The extra weight probably costs about 1 minute per mile.

Quoted message said:

I think I am starting to build up a good base of endurance, and I don't seem
to be having any problems with potential injuries. So I'd like to add some
speed training to hopefully bring my times down enough,

If you're already doing speed training, there's no need to add more (even if
you're not, there's no need to add more). If you're struggling to hold a 10
minute mile pace, you need to keep the focus on endurance. Add a fartlek run
to your training if you like, but don't burn yourself out on it. It's really
of peripheral significance considering where you are right now.

Quoted message said:

I definitely want to run faster than 5:00 hours,

Pretty much everyone can easily run much faster than 5 and a quarter miles per
hour. It's sustaining that pace for 26.2 miles that some may find to be a
challenge.

Quoted message said:

even though I know my goal
should just be finishing for my first marathon.

Right now my pattern is:

Mon - off
Tue - recovery run, ~ 5-6 miles
Wed - ~9 miles
Thu - ~7 miles
Fri - speed work: hills, intervals on a track
Sat - off
Sun - ~11-18 (will get in a 20 miler by November)

When do people do their speed work? I don't know if it's too close to
my long run, or is a day of rest enough between the speed work and the
long run?

That's the problem with doing speed work, you're spending your limited
recovery capacity on something that is nonspecific to the task you're training
for. The important point is to approach this by finding something (fartlek or
strides) that doesn't require you to take extra rest.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

From: Janithor

Quoted message said:

he marathon is in
December. I'm up to 40 miles a week now. I've been thinking about
adding a day of speed work to my weekly routine. My times are horribly
slow, although I think I can finish a marathon,

As has been posted, focus on your endurance for the time being. Get through
your first marathon and then think about running---or racing---another one.

Making it to the start line uninjured and relatively fresh should be your main
objective for now. A 5-hour marathon equates to an 11:27 per mile pace; it
sounds like you're running faster than that in some of your training.

Work on the endurance...as you get more fit, your pace will naturally quicken.
As you get stronger, and get through this first marathon, you can think about
running one at a faster pace. But get through this one first.

Good luck!

Mike C

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I run 18-22 miles in training, and I'm not
even marathon training. But then, it's only a little over 2hrs for me.

Which is only a little over 2 hrs, 18 miles or 22 miles? And how much is
"a little"?

Cos if 22 miles _in training_ is only 10 minutes over 2 hours, you're
looking at a probable 2h30 marathon already...

steve common said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I run 18-22 miles in training, and I'm not
even marathon training. But then, it's only a little over 2hrs for me.

Which is only a little over 2 hrs, 18 miles or 22 miles? And how much is
"a little"?

My last 18 miler took about 2:11. The 22 milers are hard to interpret, we
don't have a very accurate measure of the course. They are group runs, so
I sometimes run them harder than other long runs.

Quoted message said:

Cos if 22 miles _in training_ is only 10 minutes over 2 hours,

Closer to 2:30, excluding breaks for water/food.

Quoted message said:

you're looking at a probable 2h30 marathon already...

Projections based on race performances put me somewhere in the 2:45-2:50
range. But there's a lot of stuff that comes between "projecting" something
and actually doing it. I'm not likely to be running one any time soon anyway.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

just some quick comments...

I think that for a first-time marathoner, especially if you are still
working weight off as you indicate, speed training is not recommended.

I would guess the best approach for you is to run one of your 6-7 mile runs
at "pace". In other words, run your Thursday 7 mi. run at the pace you
think you could reasonably expect to do in the marathon. This will get your
body used to the pace. And I think you'll be surprised, if you follow a
proper marathon training plan, with a good taper, how much energy you'll
have on race day.

I also don't understand why you'd be running 18 miles 3 weeks ago (late
august), when your marathon is not until december. I don't know of any
marathon training program that is like that. Have checked out the training
programs at "www.halhigdon.com"? You should be following his beginner
program there....wait until your second marathon to do the intermediate.

Lisa B.

I was feeling ambitious that day. It's a trail along the river with
every 1/2 mile marked off, so I just kept going, I think I was planning
15 that day. :-}

I'm not really following a follow program to the t, just taking what I
read and kind of adapting it. The book I read was by Higdon. I wanted
to put on more milage than what he gives, so I started earlier than his
program he had in the book.

I guess I thought speed training might help because: a.) I am giving
more time to train than the books I've seen, and b.) I'm feeling strong
right now with my training, I don't have any major aches or anything,
c.) My pace on my long runs is so slow. I was running 13 minute miles
before, although that might be due in part to the Sacramento heat.

x-no-archive: yes

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Quoted message said:

I think I am starting to build up a good base of endurance, and I don't seem
to be having any problems with potential injuries. So I'd like to add some
speed training to hopefully bring my times down enough,

If you're already doing speed training, there's no need to add more (even if
you're not, there's no need to add more). If you're struggling to hold a 10
minute mile pace, you need to keep the focus on endurance. Add a fartlek run
to your training if you like, but don't burn yourself out on it. It's really
of peripheral significance considering where you are right now.

Hm. I just feel so pathetic right now. When I first started my long
runs, I was running around 13:00 miles. I think the Sacramento heat has
something to do with it, but it's just so slow.

Lisa suggested running a 7 miler at race pace. They have a path along
the river that has every 1/2 marked off. I was thinking of maybe doing
a semi-long run, and doing intervals along the trail - 1/2 mile at
increased pace, then down the next 1/2 mile, and so on.

I'm just running so slow right now, it's frustrating.

Quoted message said:

I'm not likely to be running one any time soon anyway.

Of course not, because he's full of [censored].

9-11 forget it, it's over. Who cares? Nobody.

Janithor said:

x-no-archive: yes

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Quoted message said:

I think I am starting to build up a good base of endurance, and I don't seem
to be having any problems with potential injuries. So I'd like to add some
speed training to hopefully bring my times down enough,

If you're already doing speed training, there's no need to add more (even if
you're not, there's no need to add more). If you're struggling to hold a 10
minute mile pace, you need to keep the focus on endurance. Add a fartlek run
to your training if you like, but don't burn yourself out on it. It's really
of peripheral significance considering where you are right now.

Hm. I just feel so pathetic right now. When I first started my long
runs, I was running around 13:00 miles. I think the Sacramento heat has
something to do with it, but it's just so slow.

Lisa suggested running a 7 miler at race pace. They have a path along
the river that has every 1/2 marked off. I was thinking of maybe doing
a semi-long run, and doing intervals along the trail - 1/2 mile at
increased pace, then down the next 1/2 mile, and so on.

I'm just running so slow right now, it's frustrating.

Be patient. You will make fairly rapid improvements just by training
consistently, but you won't improve any faster by trying to rush things --
trying to rush things just gets you injured.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also don't understand why you'd be running 18 miles 3 weeks ago (late
august), when your marathon is not until december. I don't know of any
marathon training program that is like that.

On the contrary, this is the wise way to run marathons. That is to have
a long term base of 100+ km weeks (62+ miles), with three hour runs every
two or three weeks. I was in that condition for all of the 1980s. A marathon
becomes basically just a hard long run you recover from in a couple days
rather than a debilitating ordeal.

I recommend ramping up to this base over three years or so to avoid injury.

rick++ said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also don't understand why you'd be running 18 miles 3 weeks ago (late
august), when your marathon is not until december. I don't know of any
marathon training program that is like that.

On the contrary, this is the wise way to run marathons. That is to have
a long term base of 100+ km weeks (62+ miles), with three hour runs every
two or three weeks.

Interesting that you mention this, I have teamates who regularly do 20+ mile
runs.

Quoted message said:

I was in that condition for all of the 1980s. A marathon
becomes basically just a hard long run you recover from in a couple days
rather than a debilitating ordeal.

I recommend ramping up to this base over three years or so to avoid injury.

Good point. I know some people who run 20-30 mile weeks for most of the
year, then they start "marathon training", and either rapidly climb to
50mpw or so, or at least have a relentless geometric increase over 6
months or so, then they wonder why their bodies intervene and say
"nuh-uh." Then they conclude that they're running into some hard-coded
genetic limitation.

I remember one of the key points of advice Noakes offers -- "train
frequently, year round". Of course he also recommends a brief period of
rest, but the point is that it is not optimal to have a huge gulf
between "marathon training" in the 16 or so weeks before a marathon, and
everything else. Sure one can stay reasonably fast on 30mpw or so, but
it's not much of a foundation if you want to hit a peak milage of 60mpw
with a 20 miler every 2 weeks.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Good point. I know some people who run 20-30 mile weeks for most of
the
year, then they start "marathon training", and either rapidly climb to
50mpw or so, or at least have a relentless geometric increase over 6
months or so, then they wonder why their bodies intervene and say
"nuh-uh." Then they conclude that they're running into some
hard-coded
genetic limitation.

I fit "some of this." I take at least two significant breaks a year of
3-4 weeks where I cut back to 20-25 junk miles a week and a long run of
maybe 7. These are actually recover stages where I'm getting stronger
while "junking". When I decide to go back into training, one weekend
I'll do a 10 mile long run and the next week 20 and then into a two
week cycle building by 5 miles or N hours depending on the next race.
I've been injury free for many many years and hold my own. .

I have 15+ years of distance experience and know my recovery rate well.
I'm one of those can ramp up quickly. Contrary to what I do, I still
recommend a 5% increase between weeks until you have many years under
your belt. Do as I say not as I do! 😉

-DougF

Donovan Rebbechi said:

rick++ said:

On the contrary, this is the wise way to run marathons. That is to have
a long term base of 100+ km weeks (62+ miles), with three hour runs every
two or three weeks.

Interesting that you mention this, I have teamates who regularly do 20+ mile
runs.

For many of us a "20+ mile run" is still over 4 hours and that's a
huge difference. For three hours I can just toss a couple bottles
of Accelerade and some energy gels in my [censored] pack and head for
the horizon. Four hours requires a lot more preparation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I recommend ramping up to this base over three years or so to avoid injury.

Good point. I know some people who run 20-30 mile weeks for most of the
year, then they start "marathon training", and either rapidly climb to
50mpw or so, or at least have a relentless geometric increase over 6
months or so, then they wonder why their bodies intervene and say
"nuh-uh."

That sounds like USAFit, and I think it's unfair criticism.

- it's targeted towards light runners (10-15 miles/week) and
only bumps them to about 25-30 miles/week (modulo long runs),
- it encourages first-timers to train for a half-marathon
their first year, but isn't uptight about it,
- it teachs a lot of good habits, and
- some people just use it as a challenge to get out of a rut.

It's obviously not the right program for fast times or experienced
marathoners, but it is a good program to turn novices into
intermediate runners.

ObDisclaimer: I only resumed running in February, and was still
walking briefly during 3 mile runs when I started BoulderFit in
late March. I was only looking for cheap coaching as I tried to
bump my long runs to 60-90 minutes from 45.

To my incredible surprise I successfully ran our entire 21 mile
benchmark and am currently tapering for a local marathon...
despite being overweight and over 40. I won't be fast, but
there's no way I could have finished a more "serious" training
program.

Bear

Janithor wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

.........

I guess I thought speed training might help because: a.) I am giving
more time to train than the books I've seen, and b.) I'm feeling strong
right now with my training, I don't have any major aches or anything,
c.) My pace on my long runs is so slow. I was running 13 minute miles
before, although that might be due in part to the Sacramento heat.

Are you doing any tempo runs, or fartlek? I would suggest doing those
before trying higher-intensity speedwork. You don't want to do intense
speedwork year-round, but only in a build up in order to peak.

- Tony