Fat for fuel

There have been some published studies on what riders eat during the major Tours. Do a PubMed
search. Jeukendrup has published several of them.

I think eating no carbs for breakfast does not make any sense. It only reduces the effectiveness of
the training in the morning and that is a bad idea.

Cycling is a sport where myth trumps truth all too often.

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.

Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on
the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids
and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races but the best pre-race meals
are somewhat high in (good) fats. The problem with the fats that many riders eat during the race
is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese sandwiches are not the majority of what they eat during
races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much
sugar/carbs before and during the event causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars
which can also encourage too much lactate production.

Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these
reasons.

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases will
change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very strong
insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training is very,
very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after they "bonk" i.e., run out of
glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth hormone are released as a
protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel. (Another reason why hGH is being
used by some athletes?)

Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
protein and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating
oatmeal and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for more sugar.
Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top before races and
he did much better.

They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much
fluid in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food
they need to eat.

Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch closely
to make sure the riders are eating enough.

They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years ago they did and it varied
between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and protein than the others.

This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.

-WG

P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he weighed 185lbs. That's really high
for someone his size.

In article said:

There have been some published studies on what riders eat during the major Tours. Do a PubMed
search. Jeukendrup has published several of them.

I think eating no carbs for breakfast does not make any sense. It only reduces the effectiveness
of the training in the morning and that is a bad idea.

Did you notice who said this, who the training is intended for, what the purpose is, and the fact
that the training is infrequent and not hard?

-WG

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.

Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can
do this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes
on the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and
fluids and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races but the best pre-race meals
are somewhat high in (good) fats. The problem with the fats that many riders eat during the race
is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese sandwiches are not the majority of what they eat
during races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much
sugar/carbs before and during the event causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars
which can also encourage too much lactate production.

Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and
it is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier.
Back when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections
for these reasons.

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases
will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very
strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training
is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after they "bonk" i.e., run out of
glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth hormone are released as a
protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel. (Another reason why hGH is
being used by some athletes?)

Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
protein and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was
eating oatmeal and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for
more sugar. Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top
before races and he did much better.

They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much fluid
in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food they need
to eat.

Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch
closely to make sure the riders are eating enough.

They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years ago they did and it varied
between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and protein than the
others.

This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.

-WG

P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he weighed 185lbs. That's really
high for someone his size.

I've been noticing that I ride a lot better for a lot longer when I have sausage and eggs for
breakfast than all of that "healthy" grain based cereals.

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of

this

Quoted message said:

has been mentioned or is known already but I'll summarize it anyway

to

Quoted message said:

confirm some opinions.

Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on
the day after

a

Quoted message said:

hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids and then go out
for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races

but

Quoted message said:

the best pre-race meals are somewhat high in (good) fats. The

problem

Quoted message said:

with the fats that many riders eat during the race is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese
sandwiches are not the majority of what

they

Quoted message said:

eat during races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much
sugar/carbs before and during the

event

Quoted message said:

causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars which can

also

Quoted message said:

encourage too much lactate production.

Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and
it is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier.
Back when

insulin

Quoted message said:

was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these reasons.

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels

but

Quoted message said:

over a period of several months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to
blood sugar increases will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we
can generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar
right after training is very, very important

to

Quoted message said:

generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after

they

Quoted message said:

"bonk" i.e., run out of glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth
hormone are released as a protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel.
(Another

reason

Quoted message said:

why hGH is being used by some athletes?)

Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
protein and fat, with carbohydrate.

When

Quoted message said:

Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating oatmeal

and

Quoted message said:

pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking

around

Quoted message said:

for more sugar. Eventually he learned to eat something like a

chicken

Quoted message said:

breast with an egg on top before races and he did much better.

They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much
fluid in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food
they need to eat.

Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch closely
to make sure the riders are eating enough.

They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years

ago

Quoted message said:

they did and it varied between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and
protein than the others.

This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.

-WG

P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he

weighed

Quoted message said:

185lbs. That's really high for someone his size.

warren said:

Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these
reasons.

And that response can only be achieved by banned injections. As a type 1 diabetic I should know some
about this. To get a surge of insulin a healthy person has to eat lots of carbs (fast). If this
surge is achieved, it may be too big and muscles open up, alright. They open up to give more energy
to the blood stream to counter the insulin surge.

Where do these people get their myths?

Quoted message said:

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases will
change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very strong
insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training is very,
very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Your body loads up, like it or not.

Jan

warren said:

Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.

Good summary, thanks.

Quoted message said:

generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right
after training is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker after a
long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.

Quoted message said:

Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on
the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids
and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

Yes, the fitter the person the more power they should be able to produce as a result of fat
oxidation. BUT, I think Max may be off about diet affecting the abilitiy to "train" the body to
rely of fats. My understanding of this area is that "training the body to rely on fats" is a
temporary consequence of the low-carb/high-fat meal (i.e. a greater reliance on fats will only
occur during that ride). That is, you can't "teach" your body to use fats vs. carbs for energy by
manipulating the diet, riding without carbs, etc. Any effect you see is the result of the diet at
that moment (or the preceding meal), not a change in the person's physiology. Of course, just
getting fitter (increasing aerobic capacity) will allow you to rely more on fats for energy, but
that's different than saying you can "teach" the body to rely more on fats by simply avoiding carbs
during training, etc.

Quoted message said:

Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these
reasons.

Yes, insulin causes glucose transporters to come to the surface of muscle cells so that glucose can
enter them, and it also stimulates protien synthesis within the cells.

Quoted message said:

Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
protein and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating
oatmeal and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for more sugar.
Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top before races and
he did much better.

This is quite consistent with the reason I gave in the ealier thread about why eating fats before or
early in a race could be advantageous, which was, such a meal (or consuming some fats early in a
race) may shift the body's carb/fat energy ratio, ultimately providing a glycogen sparing effect.

Wayne

(Donald Munro) said:

warren said:

Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.

Good summary, thanks.

Quoted message said:

generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right
after training is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker after a
long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.

Protein + carbs is going to create the greatest release of insulin and coincidentally are the two
things you need post-training. For endurance work a
15:1 carb to protein ratio is a good baseline. Add more protein for weight work.

Fat is good food, but post-workout it'll just slow gastric emptying keeping you from exploiting the
insulin sensitivity window to the greatest extent.

--
Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

Quoted message said:

And that response can only be achieved by banned injections. As a type 1 diabetic I should know
some about this. To get a surge of insulin a healthy person has to eat lots of carbs (fast). If
this surge is achieved, it may be too big and muscles open up, alright. They open up to give more
energy to the blood stream to counter the insulin surge.

Where do these people get their myths?

Indeed, I don't think your statement is accurate. I'm about 100% sure muscles don't have the ability
to breakdown glycogen and release glucose into the blood. A drop in blood sugar is countered by the
release of the hormone glucagon which stimulates hepatic release of glucose into the blood. Insulin
stimulates a glucose transporter (Glut-4, I think) to come to the surface of cells and move glucose
from the blood into the tissue. The transporter doesn't transport both ways. The effect of low-blood
sugar induced by insulin would be countered by your bodies release of glucagon and it's effect on
liver glycogen.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases
will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very
strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training
is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Your body loads up, like it or not.

Yes, glycogen stores will be replaced eventually (like within 48 hours or so) but a big sugar
induced post-exercise insulin spike increases the rate at which the glycogen is replaced early on
following exercise. This could be critically important if you have to go out and do it all again
about 18 hours later.

Wayne

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can
do this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes
on the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and
fluids and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

Yes, the fitter the person the more power they should be able to produce as a result of fat
oxidation. BUT, I think Max may be off about diet affecting the abilitiy to "train" the body to
rely of fats.

I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity" using
mostly fat and not a huge amount of carbs before racing so a 3-4 hour recovery ride on just protein
and fat doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.

-WG

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of
several months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar
increases will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can
generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar
right after training is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of
insulin.

Your body loads up, like it or not.

Yes, glycogen stores will be replaced eventually (like within 48 hours or so) but a big sugar
induced post-exercise insulin spike increases the rate at which the glycogen is replaced early on
following exercise. This could be critically important if you have to go out and do it all again
about 18 hours later.

Wayne

Max mentioned that a pro can fully replace their glycogen within 24 hours, longer for the rest of
us. After a full depletion of glycogen you can replace to a level almost 2 times the normal amount
("carbo loading" done correctly).

We mentioned Armstrong bonking in the Tour a few years ago and then having a good day the following
day. GH releases and more than normal glycogen?

-WG

In article <[email hidden]>, Top Sirloin

Quoted message said:

On 8 May 2003 03:04:11 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Munro) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker after
a long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.

Protein + carbs is going to create the greatest release of insulin and coincidentally are the two
things you need post-training. For endurance work a
15:1 carb to protein ratio is a good baseline. Add more protein for weight work.

MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best. Where do you read that 15:1 is
better? I'm picturing that post ride diet and it doesn't sound anything like what I've been
advised to do.

In fact, Max doesn't even mention eating so many grams of carbs or protein or a certain ratio. It's
more like, have some sports drink, cereal and maybe a small protein drink. An hour later have ~200g
of fish or chicken, some vegetables wil olive oil and parmessan cheese, a little bread or pasta.
Maybe a small protein drink before bed if you're hungry. Perhaps this approach is intended for
people who race and train 6+ days a week because adhering to specific ratios might begin to
interfere too much with what's needed day in and day out over 11 months a year.

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Max mentioned that a pro can fully replace their glycogen within 24 hours, longer for the rest of
us. After a full depletion of glycogen you can replace to a level almost 2 times the normal amount
("carbo loading" done correctly).

Training does enhance the rate of post-exercise muscle glycogen synthesis. However, even untrained
individuals can restore muscle glycogen in 24 h if they consume enough carbohydrate/drive plasma
glucose and insulin levels high enough/long enough.

Andy ("Eat to ride, ride to eat"😉 Coggan

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best.

Actually, I have specifically hypothesized that 4:1 is less-than-ideal, and that a higher ratio of
CHO:protein is likely to be better (10:1 is what I would center a study around).

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity"
using mostly fat

Fuel utilization during exercise is a function of intensity, duration, acute and chronic diet, and
training status (and perhaps age and gender, although separating these influences from the others -
esp. fitness/training status - is exceedingly difficult). Elite or not, all endurance athletes are
subject to the same effects, which means that a pro cyclist exercising at a given percentage of
their lactate threshold will use a fuel "mix" comparable to that of a totally untrained person
exercising at the same percentage of their lactate threshold. The difference, of course, is that a
given percentage of lactate threshold represents a much higher absolute and a somewhat higher
relative intensity for the trained cyclist than the untrained subject.

Andy ("Carbohydrate is King"😉 Coggan

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Top Sirloin

Quoted message said:

On 8 May 2003 03:04:11 -0700, [email hidden] (Donald Munro) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker
after a long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.

Protein + carbs is going to create the greatest release of insulin and coincidentally are the two
things you need post-training. For endurance work a
15:1 carb to protein ratio is a good baseline. Add more protein for weight work.

MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best. Where do you read that 15:1 is
better? I'm picturing that post ride diet and it doesn't sound anything like what I've been
advised to do.

I didn't mean to. It was a typo and should've been 5:1.

Quoted message said:

In fact, Max doesn't even mention eating so many grams of carbs or protein or a certain ratio. It's
more like, have some sports drink, cereal and maybe a small protein drink. An hour later have ~200g
of fish or chicken, some vegetables wil olive oil and parmessan cheese, a little bread or pasta.
Maybe a small protein drink before bed if you're hungry. Perhaps this approach is intended for
people who race and train 6+ days a week because adhering to specific ratios might begin to
interfere too much with what's needed day in and day out over 11 months a year.

This approach works good because compliance will be high. Actually, it's a lot like the old standard
bodybuilders diet of protein+carbs every three hours with minimal fat intake. There are much worse
ways to eat.

The weightrainer, especially on a diet, will specifically take in dextrose, which preferentially
replenishes muscle glycogen over liver glycogen, and a fast digesting protein like whey to take
maximum advantage of the post-workout insulin sensitivity windows. The bodybuilder trying to add
muscle will include some glucose or fructose to help fill liver glycogen as anabolism will increased
the higher liver glycogen is raised.

They then eat a regular meal 1-2 hours after their workout.

--
Scott Johnson Fry Mumia danielfaulkner.comdanielfaulkner.comOpen ↗

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity"
using mostly fat

Fuel utilization during exercise is a function of intensity, duration,

acute

Quoted message said:

and chronic diet, and training status (and perhaps age and gender,

although

Quoted message said:

separating these influences from the others - esp. fitness/training

status -

Quoted message said:

is exceedingly difficult). Elite or not, all endurance athletes are

subject

Quoted message said:

to the same effects, which means that a pro cyclist exercising at a given percentage of their
lactate threshold will use a fuel "mix" comparable to that of a totally untrained person
exercising at the same percentage of their lactate threshold. The difference, of course, is that a
given percentage of lactate threshold represents a much higher absolute and a somewhat higher
relative intensity for the trained cyclist than the untrained subject.

Andy ("Carbohydrate is King"😉 Coggan

Andy,

I have a question for you, based on what I think are repeatable observations: Should you worry about
CHO intake in a medium length race, say 110 km in ~2'30.00, provided you've had a substantial
breakfast and lunch beforehand?

Reason I ask is that I notice if I start drinking sports drink or eating stuff at the halfway point
of a race, my legs suddenly start to get really sore really quickly. I don't know if that simply
coincides with the fact that I'm running out of CHO, but before I start drinking/eating anything
other than water, my legs always feel fine, and there's no real drive to start eating unless I
deliberately tell myself to do so. It's feels to me like a big switch in energy systems, and it
happens every time I start eating/drinking.

Maybe in the next race I'll just take water and see how far I get. Can't be any worse than blowing
up within 10 km of starting to eat. Or maybe it's a question of eating quite a bit more once you
start to make sure there is enough fuel to support CHO burning again.

For what it's worth, I hardly ever eat while training unless it's over 4 hrs, and I'm 8 kilos
heavier than when I used to race a bit more, so I ain't running out of that substrate very
quickly :-)

Jeff

Tom Kunich said:

I've been noticing that I ride a lot better for a lot longer when I have sausage and eggs for
breakfast than all of that "healthy" grain based cereals.

Write a diet book--everyone else has!

Steve

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of

this

Quoted message said:

has been mentioned or is known already but I'll summarize it anyway

to

Quoted message said:

confirm some opinions.

Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can
do this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes
on the day after

a

Quoted message said:

hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids and then go out
for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races

but

Quoted message said:

the best pre-race meals are somewhat high in (good) fats. The

problem

Quoted message said:

with the fats that many riders eat during the race is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese
sandwiches are not the majority of what

they

Quoted message said:

eat during races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too
much sugar/carbs before and during the

event

Quoted message said:

causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars which can

also

Quoted message said:

encourage too much lactate production.

Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and
it is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier.
Back when

insulin

Quoted message said:

was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these reasons.

Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels

but

Quoted message said:

over a period of several months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to
blood sugar increases will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we
can generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar
right after training is very, very important

to

Quoted message said:

generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after

they

Quoted message said:

"bonk" i.e., run out of glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth
hormone are released as a protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel.
(Another

reason

Quoted message said:

why hGH is being used by some athletes?)

Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
protein and fat, with carbohydrate.

When

Quoted message said:

Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating oatmeal

and

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pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking

around

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for more sugar. Eventually he learned to eat something like a

chicken

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breast with an egg on top before races and he did much better.

They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much fluid
in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food they need
to eat.

Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch
closely to make sure the riders are eating enough.

They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years

ago

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they did and it varied between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and
protein than the others.

This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.

-WG

P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he

weighed

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185lbs. That's really high for someone his size.

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy Coggan

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"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity"
using mostly fat

Fuel utilization during exercise is a function of intensity, duration, acute and chronic diet, and
training status (and perhaps age and gender, although separating these influences from the others
- esp. fitness/training status - is exceedingly difficult). Elite or not, all endurance athletes
are subject to the same effects, which means that a pro cyclist exercising at a given percentage
of their lactate threshold will use a fuel "mix" comparable to that of a totally untrained person
exercising at the same percentage of their lactate threshold. The difference, of course, is that a
given percentage of lactate threshold represents a much higher absolute and a somewhat higher
relative intensity for the trained cyclist than the untrained subject.

I don't think this is what Max was telling me. I think when he said "higher intensity" he meant
higher % of LT. And he was making the comparison between "you and me" to a pro which is not the same
as your comparison.

How's this example? The better you have trained your slow twitch fibers the less carbs you need on a
ride at a given % of LT. This has been my recent experience and my comment about this to Max
prompted his reply that I've written previously in this thread.

-WG

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy Coggan

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"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best.

Actually, I have specifically hypothesized that 4:1 is less-than-ideal, and that a higher ratio of
CHO:protein is likely to be better (10:1 is what I would center a study around).

I recall you saying that 4:1 or 5:1 was best and that your Dannon yogurt had this ratio making it a
perfect food for this objective.

BTW, Costco's "Kirkland" brand yogurt is even better IMO.

-WG