Expedition 15

Fran <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Katherine
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

That way, at least 2 from California will make it to an
expedition.

Why not have Expedition 16 in San Diego :?

<Wistful sigh> That'd be lovely! Anyone volunteering to pay
for Himself and me, and to 'babysit' the oiks? </sigh>

You'll need a Visa to get in the US after September, about
60 squid, I believe. :-(
--
Gordon

roger said:

Quoted message said:

So, is the emphasis on climbing big hills quickly or are
there some slow ones amongst you, too?

More than some. It is the faster* walkers that tend to be
very much in the minority. I think some of the walk times
have come out at more than double Naismith.

Isn't "double Naismith" what most people would call
"normal"?

Quoted message said:

*Faster in this context is a relative term. Not so slow
would be a better description.

I was wondering about this yesterday. What is a "normal"
walker? Is it a normal person who goes walking occasionally,
or is it a dedicated walker who walks regularly?

The point is that Naismith was obviously a very fit walker.
He worked out his formula as a result of a great deal of
walking, so his formula is a good indication of what a
"fit/experienced" walker should be capable of.

Many people however, no doubt including many on this
newsgroup, are not in prime physical condition and don't go
walking that regularly, so it's no surprise that your
average "person who goes walking occasionally" can't keep up
with Naismith. Perhaps younger walkers may find it easier to
keep up with Naismith, but not many of the older ones.

So is a "normal walker" like a "normal athlete", i.e someone
who is by definition very fit, or merely a person of average
capablitities who likes to go out for a walk now and again?

Why doesn't someone figure out a walking formula for
"normal people who walk" to contrast with the fit walkers
"Naismith formula"? I know about Tranter's corrections and
all that, but that's based on Naismith. Why not have a
simple formula for average walkers assuming a low level of
fitness as a default?

I'd suggest that flat walking speed wouldn't be much slower,
but that ascent would take much longer. Flat walking
requires very little effort, but unfit and overweight people
find ascent disproportionately harder, as I've experience
myself and observed in others.

Paul
--
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Judith said:

Count me in.

Jolly good. Where would you like to go in Snowdonia? No-one
has suggested anywhere yet.

Paul
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"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't someone figure out a walking formula for
"normal people who walk" to contrast with the fit walkers
"Naismith formula"? I know about Tranter's corrections and
all that, but that's based on Naismith. Why not have a
simple formula for average walkers assuming a low level of
fitness as a default?

I'd suggest that flat walking speed wouldn't be much
slower, but that ascent would take much longer. Flat
walking requires very little effort, but unfit and
overweight people find ascent disproportionately harder,
as I've experience myself and observed in others.

I'm not a naturally fast walker on the flat and don't find
myself overtaking everyone but being probably fitter than
average I don't find walking uphill much of a strain and do
tend to overtake most people if I'm by myself. My girlfriend
on the other hand isn't very fit and despite walking faster
than me on the flat needs to slow down a lot at the
slightest incline. I find walking uphill that slowly a real
drain on my energy (mentally) so have to keep stopping which
is good unless it's horribly wet or cold but then she
doesn't do wet and cold these days. I also tend to run
suitable downhills sometimes because it seems less jarring
and is more enjoyable.

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

roger wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, is the emphasis on climbing big hills quickly or
are there some slow ones amongst you, too?

More than some. It is the faster* walkers that tend to
be very much in the minority. I think some of the walk
times have come out at more than double Naismith.

Quoted message said:

Isn't "double Naismith" what most people would call
"normal"?

I suspect that to most people a walk to the nearest bus stop
is their idea of a long walk but regular hill walkers should
be much closer to Naismith if they don't spend too much time
on stationary activities

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*Faster in this context is a relative term. Not so slow
would be a better description.

Quoted message said:

I was wondering about this yesterday. What is a "normal"
walker? Is it a normal person who goes walking
occasionally, or is it a dedicated walker who walks
regularly?

A regular walker is likely to be fit for walking. The
occasional walker is not, but could be given more
involvement. But lack of fitness probably restricts
endurance more than speed so what is normal in pace will
vary much less than distance between rests or time to
exhaustion.

Quoted message said:

The point is that Naismith was obviously a very fit
walker. He worked out his formula as a result of a great
deal of walking, so his formula is a good indication of
what a "fit/experienced" walker should be capable of.

I don't think it is that high a standard. Perhaps if you
said it was in reach of any fit walker you would be nearer
the mark. I have never counted myself a fast walker (having
regularly been burnt off by the hard men) but in my prime I
could sometimes manage Chapmans Rule rather than Naismiths
for all but the hardest walks. (3 Peaks in under 7 hours,
Lyke Wake Walk in under 12). Chapmans Rule (for those who
haven't encountered it before) is a hour for every 4 miles
plus another for every 3000 feet.

Quoted message said:

Many people however, no doubt including many on this
newsgroup, are not in prime physical condition and don't
go walking that regularly, so it's no surprise that your
average "person who goes walking occasionally" can't keep
up with Naismith. Perhaps younger walkers may find it
easier to keep up with Naismith, but not many of the
older ones.

I am certainly not in prime physical condition, and haven't
been for a very long time but I can still usually beat
Naismith on an easy day out.

Quoted message said:

So is a "normal walker" like a "normal athlete", i.e
someone who is by definition very fit, or merely a person
of average capabilities who likes to go out for a walk now
and again?

Anyone who walks regularly is likely to be reasonably fit.
I'm not atm being sidelined with continuing knee problems
but when (if?) I ever get out regularly again I expect to
suffer on the ascents until I regain my normal fitness.

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't someone figure out a walking formula for
"normal people who walk" to contrast with the fit walkers
"Naismith formula"? I know about Tranter's corrections and
all that, but that's based on Naismith. Why not have a
simple formula for average walkers assuming a low level of
fitness as a default?

Naismith is only a rough estimate and it is easy enough to
modify to suit individual circumstances. What is perhaps
more important is to know ones limitations. Last year (when
I somehow ended up fitter than I had been for a decade or 2)
I was reluctant to take on anything more demanding than 15
miles and 4000 feet of ascent but it was the ascent that was
really the limiting factor.

Quoted message said:

I'd suggest that flat walking speed wouldn't be much
slower, but that ascent would take much longer. Flat
walking requires very little effort, but unfit and
overweight people find ascent disproportionately harder,
as I've experience myself and observed in others.

I am not at home atm so can't consult he original but ISTR
that Waddell had it that energy expenditure was not that
much greater going up hill than on the flat and descending
only marginally less than on the flat but like you I think I
work much harder going up hill than on the flat. One is of
course moving faster on the flat than uphill and even faster
downhill so the rate of energy expenditure per unit distance
differs much more markedly than rate per unit time.

--
Roger Chapman

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm also capable of buying rounds in pubs (even Rhyd Ddu
pubs who change their prices depending on whether the
drinkers are English or Welsh).

Quoted message said:

Do they really? Just as well there are a couple of Welsh
speakers here then - perhaps we can fool them into thinking
we're natives (says she, having just sat - or stood[1] - a
sylvaen[2] exam in Welsh)

It's a long time since I was in such parochial parts of
Wales, but when I was, I discovered that for such purposes
Scots were often considered to be not-English, fellow Celtic
sufferers from English Imperialism.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Paul Saunders said:

Where would you like to go in Snowdonia? No-one has
suggested anywhere yet.

This months Trail has lots of Snowdon routes :-)

Bernie

Paul Saunders said:

Where would you like to go in Snowdonia?

So, it's definitely Snowdonia is it?!

If it's July then I want to be high and windy (because I
hate walking in warm weather). Although I've been up Snowdon
a couple of times, I'm not overly familiar with any part of
Snowdonia. I've walked from Capel Curig and Rhyd Ddu a
couple of times but I do seem to spend most of my time
drooling in Cotswolds in Betwys-y-Coed rather than walking,
so perhaps we should head away from the gear shops and the
tourist traps.

I'm not fussed where we go. Sorry for not helping!

Judith

Judith said:

Paul Rooney said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I've never done Tryfan as it just looks like a big
[censored] heap to me

!!!??!!!!!??***$%$%££!

Words fail me.

Oh, I'm sorry. Have I said the wrong thing?

I'll re-phrase. "I have never done Tryfan as, when I go
walking, I prefer to use my feet rather than my hands."

(Is that any better?)

Judith

That's better! Tryfan is one cool mountain. Very good fun.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site:

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

Judith said:

Paul Saunders said:

Where would you like to go in Snowdonia?

So, it's definitely Snowdonia is it?!

If it's July then I want to be high and windy (because I
hate walking in warm weather). Although I've been up
Snowdon a couple of times, I'm not overly familiar with any
part of Snowdonia. I've walked from Capel Curig and Rhyd
Ddu a couple of times but I do seem to spend most of my
time drooling in Cotswolds in Betwys-y-Coed rather than
walking, so perhaps we should head away from the gear shops
and the tourist traps.

How about camping somewhere in the Conwy Valley? The hard
walk could go up into the Carneddau. Gentler options might
include wandering over Great Orme (I was there two weeks ago
and the copper mines are much more interesting than I
expected) or flying kites on the beach in Llandudno.

According to the map, there's a campsite near the coast in
the shadow of the Carneddau - anyone know it? Non-campers
could try for a guesthouse in Conwy or Llandudno.

Judith said:

So, it's definitely Snowdonia is it?!

I can't think of a better place to hold the Snowdonia
anniversary expedition. :-)

Quoted message said:

If it's July then I want to be high and windy (because I
hate walking in warm weather).

Wind in July?

Quoted message said:

Although I've been up Snowdon a couple of times, I'm not
overly familiar with any part of Snowdonia. I've walked
from Capel Curig and Rhyd Ddu a couple of times but I do
seem to spend most of my time drooling in Cotswolds in Betwys-y-
Coed rather than walking,

Tut tut...

Quoted message said:

so perhaps we should head away from the gear shops and the
tourist traps.

Definitely.

Paul
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Stuart Baldwin said:

How about camping somewhere in the Conwy Valley? The hard
walk could go up into the Carneddau. Gentler options might
include wandering over Great Orme (I was there two weeks
ago and the copper mines are much more interesting than I
expected) or flying kites on the beach in Llandudno.

That's not a bad idea. I haven't done the eastern or
northern Carneddau yet.

Here's another suggestion. What about the main ridge of the
Arans? Best done as a one way walk I suspect. Perhaps a camp
to the west of the Arans (near Dolgellau) or maybe Dinas
Mawddwy for easy access to some of the Dyfi Forest peaks?

Paul
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[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

How about camping somewhere in the Conwy Valley? The hard
walk could go up into the Carneddau. Gentler options might
include wandering over Great Orme (I was there two weeks
ago and the copper mines are much more interesting than I
expected) or flying kites on the beach in Llandudno.

Sounding good so far...
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

On 15/5/04 8:59 am, in article [email hidden], "W.

D. Grey said:

Don't knock it Paul, unless my wife is allowed to "bag"
Anna Davies' shop while I to a circular walk of the
outdoor shops, I'd never be allowed near B-Y-C again :-)

Perhaps this explains the B-Y-C phenomenon that I witnessed
- again - this Easter. I keep seeing people outside pubs and
cafés wearing Scarpa SL boots which are obviously very
different to mine, in other words, that don't seem to have
ever been on a hill. Surely they are really not comfortable
enough to wear around town?

Mind you I saw it again this week. I was in Stamfords in
Covent Garden and was having a genetle browse when I noticed
a bloke doing the same wearing, yes, un-marked Scarpas.

This must be a new trend in walking that I've missed so far!

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

Gordon said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or flying kites on the beach in Llandudno.

Sounding good so far...

Yeaah - throw in an en-suite room, dinner and breakfast
and we could be persuaded. ;-)

Plenty of nice holiday accomodation in Llandudno.

Paul
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Andy Howell said:

Mind you I saw it again this week. I was in Stamfords in
Covent Garden and was having a genetle browse when I
noticed a bloke doing the same wearing, yes, un-marked
Scarpas.

This must be a new trend in walking that I've missed so
far!

Ah, they must be confusing walking with walking!

Paul
--
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[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Fran <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

How about camping somewhere in the Conwy Valley? The
hard walk could go up into the Carneddau. Gentler
options might include wandering over Great Orme (I was
there two weeks ago and the copper mines are much more
interesting than I expected) or flying kites on the
beach in Llandudno.

Sounding good so far...

Yeaah - throw in an en-suite room, dinner and breakfast
and we could be persuaded. ;-)

Conwy YH has some en-suite rooms, having been retirement
flats prior to its conversion as a YH. Breakfast and evening
meal are available for a reasonable fee.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

"Andy Howell" <andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote in message
news:BCCB933D.2EEB6%andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk...

Quoted message said:

On 15/5/04 8:59 am, in article
[email hidden], "W.

D. Grey said:

Don't knock it Paul, unless my wife is allowed to "bag"
Anna Davies' shop while I to a circular walk of the
outdoor shops, I'd never be allowed near B-Y-C again :-)

Perhaps this explains the B-Y-C phenomenon that I
witnessed - again - this Easter. I keep seeing people
outside pubs and cafés wearing Scarpa SL boots which are
obviously very different to mine, in other words, that
don't seem to have ever been on a hill. Surely they are
really not comfortable enough to wear around town?

Mind you I saw it again this week. I was in Stamfords in
Covent Garden and was having a genetle browse when I
noticed a bloke doing the same wearing, yes, un-marked
Scarpas.

This must be a new trend in walking that I've missed so
far!

They are trying to wear the SLs everywhere they go for long
enough that they will eventually soften enough in order to
be used for walking on the hills!

I had an officemate who ended up chucking hers after
about 4 weeks of doing that, they just never softened in
to her feet.

And she was well 'ard BTW, climbed in the Atlas and up
Kilimanjaro and chews up Munros instead of climbing
them etc etc.
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

On 15/5/04 12:05 pm, in article [email hidden], "Paul

Saunders said:

Ah, they must be confusing walking with walking!

I suppose we should be glad that walking is - well - getting
a bit trendy. There's a nice piece in the current issue of
Adventure Travel about the obsession with buying kit; I
think they have a point.

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

Gordon said:

Not sure who was the biggest gear freak, the one modestly
wearing unmarked Scarpas or the person who can recognise
unmarked Scarpas. ;-)

I heard them coming! Walking around Stanfords in Scarpa SLs
is, well, a little on the load side. Only recognised them
'cause they're my boots as well. Mine were only bought in
October and have not done as much walking as I would have
liked - but they're worn and scuffed as you would expect
from mountains and hills.

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK