Endurance Requirement for a Kilo racer?

SolarEnergy said:

Hi,

For a Kilo specialist, what would be the % of total training time spent doing endurance work?

I would expect this % to be fairly high during the general preparation phase. And as the season moves toward specific preparation, I'd expect that endurance base to be put on a "maintenance" protocol. Is this how you guys train?

Thanks

As with all things, this depends on the specialist. 🙂

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-225818-15-2.html

SolarEnergy said:

Hi,

For a Kilo specialist, what would be the % of total training time spent doing endurance work?

I would expect this % to be fairly high during the general preparation phase. And as the season moves toward specific preparation, I'd expect that endurance base to be put on a "maintenance" protocol. Is this how you guys train?

Thanks

Listen to the audio.

N=1, 2004 US National Elite champion, Masters world champion
3 hour rides rarely, most rides under 90 minutes.
Does 2 or 3 kilometer time trials a year *total* so he only does them in competition.

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/framebuilders/antonquist/index1.htm

That is a great interview. I found it interesting how he divided his workload from stading starts/gym/high cadence roller training. I cant understand the reason for being able to do 180 rpm for 45 seconds on unloaded rollers. I wonder if it is to teach the legs to fire fast, or just to deal with the pain?

Woofer said:

Listen to the audio.

N=1, 2004 US National Elite champion, Masters world champion
3 hour rides rarely, most rides under 90 minutes.
Does 2 or 3 kilometer time trials a year *total* so he only does them in competition.

fixedgeargallery.comindex1.htmOpen ↗

Billsworld said:

That is a great interview. I found it interesting how he divided his workload from stading starts/gym/high cadence roller training. I cant understand the reason for being able to do 180 rpm for 45 seconds on unloaded rollers. I wonder if it is to teach the legs to fire fast, or just to deal with the pain?

My WAG is it's an overspeed drill and a technique drill since he doesn't have regular access to a velodrome due to limited training time. During the real event, one has to average over 145 rpm to get close to one minute with the gears that are typically being used at the elite level.

Woofer said:

My WAG is it's an overspeed drill and a technique drill since he doesn't have regular access to a velodrome due to limited training time. During the real event, one has to average over 145 rpm to get close to one minute with the gears that are typically being used at the elite level.

I wouldn't suggest that one does any Kilos out of competition anyway. Break the event into it's components and train each in turn.

The current argument is whether to start from a endurance perspective (ride fast for 65sec and then try and raise the speed over the training period) or from a speed perspective (ride to 40mph over the training period try to hold this speed for longer).

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

fergie said:

I wouldn't suggest that one does any Kilos out of competition anyway. Break the event into it's components and train each in turn.

The current argument is whether to start from a endurance perspective (ride fast for 65sec and then try and raise the speed over the training period) or from a speed perspective (ride to 40mph over the training period try to hold this speed for longer).

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Wouldnt that be a matter of personal strengths ?

Billsworld said:

Wouldnt that be a matter of personal strengths ?

Scammed some SRM data from the current NZ record holder (1.04 on 250m outdoor concrete track). His max power for the Kilo was no where near his absolute max power. I take it this means he paced himself for the effort. Same for pursuiting (he also holds 4K record 4.31).

Over the last seven years he has been committed to a US based Pro team so a large amount of the year is devoted to building his aerobic capacity and even through our track Nationals and Oceania Games was doing numerous 4-6 hour rides while recording 1.05 for the Kilo and 4.49 for 4000m.

While this rider is unlikely to approach 1.00-1.01 in competition it does show that one can get close by adopting the endurance and build speed approach.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

fergie said:

Scammed some SRM data from the current NZ record holder (1.04 on 250m outdoor concrete track). His max power for the Kilo was no where near his absolute max power. I take it this means he paced himself for the effort. Same for pursuiting (he also holds 4K record 4.31).

Over the last seven years he has been committed to a US based Pro team so a large amount of the year is devoted to building his aerobic capacity and even through our track Nationals and Oceania Games was doing numerous 4-6 hour rides while recording 1.05 for the Kilo and 4.49 for 4000m.

While this rider is unlikely to approach 1.00-1.01 in competition it does show that one can get close by adopting the endurance and build speed approach.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Purely being the devils advocate here:
It could also mean it wasn't his best effort and we don't know if he has ever tried to do it any other way.
edit: I am looking at the example SRM kilo file, assuming it's real, and the rider weighs over 75kg, for a time of about 1:02 so possibly podium class at an indoor velodrome, the peak w/kg is way less than the high world class 5s average. Assuming a lot here, but it is often easier to record a higher peak in a lower gear for a given speed, and they are using pretty big gears at the elite level.

Woofer said:

Purely being the devils advocate here:
It could also mean it wasn't his best effort and we don't know if he has ever tried to do it any other way.

Well I could ask him if you like.

And if a sub 1.05 Kilo on a outdoor concrete track is not his best ride then I can't wait till see when he does put in some effort 😄

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

fergie said:

Scammed some SRM data from the current NZ record holder (1.04 on 250m outdoor concrete track). His max power for the Kilo was no where near his absolute max power. I take it this means he paced himself for the effort. Same for pursuiting (he also holds 4K record 4.31).

Over the last seven years he has been committed to a US based Pro team so a large amount of the year is devoted to building his aerobic capacity and even through our track Nationals and Oceania Games was doing numerous 4-6 hour rides while recording 1.05 for the Kilo and 4.49 for 4000m.

While this rider is unlikely to approach 1.00-1.01 in competition it does show that one can get close by adopting the endurance and build speed approach.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Not debating with you....maybe this an oversimplification of the kilo, but it is sort of like the 400 in track n field. There are both 200 meter guys, 400 specialists, and 800 guys that run it. The 200 and 800 guys have little in common as far as training, but may end up with similar times. It appears that a guy like chris hoy who can kilo and sprint well would be more like the 200 meter guy crossing over than the roadie doing the kilo. I would love to see his SRM file though. Warren and I were discussing this before and he feels as you do that everyone has a different way of getting to the end the fastest. Woofer referenced the Antoin Quist interveiw where he discussed his training methods. He seems to do few long rides and works mostly starts, VERY high cadence work and the gym. I think his best time is 104 as a master. Howd you people do at your nationals?

fergie said:

Scammed some SRM data from the current NZ record holder (1.04 on 250m outdoor concrete track). His max power for the Kilo was no where near his absolute max power.

Not to try to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but as I mentioned off-list I think there's something wrong with the max/5 s data you have for him. I'd therefore be hesistant to definitively conclude that he must have paced himself.

acoggan said:

Not to try to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but as I mentioned off-list I think there's something wrong with the max/5 s data you have for him. I'd therefore be hesistant to definitively conclude that he must have paced himself.

Yeah I suspect that max power is way too high from his max mean power in Cycling Peaks. He thinks it should be higher (bloody Pros and their egos 😄 ). Even still his starting power was around 1500watts which seems low when many people here have 5sec powers around that level and he starts pursuits at 1050watts. But then Boardman's peak power in a Wingate was less than 1000watts. He is a very good sprinter and is being chased by our sprint coach for the Team Sprint but is also a very handy Road Rider (3rd last year at Road Nats).

May also have something to do with how often his SRM is recording data. I would assume as it is his own unit he can do this daily and have it set at 1sec intervals.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

I'm not sure if you're interested in learning more about this one guy's approach or one that might work best for yourself, or somebody you're trying to help...

I see people do the first 50-100 meters at absolute maximum effort to get up to some speed and then hold back a bit as they ramp up to their max speed for the event, which is often not going to be the fastest speed they could get up to.

As the first guy in the team sprint there is no holding back at all, at any point. It's just go as hard as you can and get to as high a speed as you can, then hold on until it's time to get out of the way. IME, using this approach for a kilo will result in a slower time. If you're a world-class elite then you'd tend to aim at a target closer to the highest speed you could and then hold on the best you can.

WarrenG said:

As the first guy in the team sprint there is no holding back at all, at any point. It's just go as hard as you can and get to as high a speed as you can, then hold on until it's time to get out of the way. IME, using this approach for a kilo will result in a slower time. If you're a world-class elite then you'd tend to aim at a target closer to the highest speed you could and then hold on the best you can.

Modeling studies indicate that world class kilo riders seemingly rely on an "all out" strategy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10668763&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum

This conclusion is consistent with the decline in power output over time observed in a former world champion kilo rider doing a ~1:02 in training:

Martin JC, Gardner AS, Barras M, Martin DT. Modeling sprint cycling using field-derived parameters and forward integration. Med Sci Sports Exerc (in press).

(Note for Fergie: this rider's peak power was "only" ~22 W/kg.)

acoggan said:

Modeling studies indicate that world class kilo riders seemingly rely on an "all out" strategy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10668763&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum

This conclusion is consistent with the decline in power output over time observed in a former world champion kilo rider doing a ~1:02 in training:

Martin JC, Gardner AS, Barras M, Martin DT. Modeling sprint cycling using field-derived parameters and forward integration. Med Sci Sports Exerc (in press).

(Note for Fergie: this rider's peak power was "only" ~22 W/kg.)

I could only read the abstract but where does it say the kilo rider went all out and aimed at the highest possible speed instead of accelerating up to what was almost his maximum possible speed? This would be simple to measure.

We can see in the times of the top few riders that some are better in the first lap than others, while a few are slower at the beginning can be faster in the third lap and win the race. Whether their slower start is intentional or not, the winner isn't always the guy with the lowest first lap time.

Interesting that the pursuiter went all out for about 12 seconds then backed off. I've heard some people say you shouldn't go all out right from the start of a pursuit because the start isn't that important compared to the possible penalty to be paid later.

And of course, people who do not spend their life training for the kilo sometimes find that a pacing strategy that works best for them (lowest time for the event) will not be one that aims at their highest possible speed at the start.

[quote="WarrenG"]I could only read the abstract but where does it say the kilo rider went all out and aimed at the highest possible speed instead of accelerating up to what was almost his maximum possible speed?

In the paper.

WarrenG said:

This would be simple to measure.

WarrenG said:

Interesting that the pursuiter went all out for about 12 seconds then backed off.

acoggan said:

Modeling studies indicate that world class kilo riders seemingly rely on an "all out" strategy:

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗

This conclusion is consistent with the decline in power output over time observed in a former world champion kilo rider doing a ~1:02 in training:

Martin JC, Gardner AS, Barras M, Martin DT. Modeling sprint cycling using field-derived parameters and forward integration. Med Sci Sports Exerc (in press).

(Note for Fergie: this rider's peak power was "only" ~22 W/kg.)

whos the rider coogy?

andy

velodrome.co.nr said:

whos the rider coogy?

andy

As you might expect, the paper doesn't say - for each of the three subjects it just gives a few physical characteristics, shows a sample power file during their respective events (i.e., kilo, flying 200 m, 500 m), and states that they all are or were World Champions in sprint (i.e., non-endurance) track cycling.

acoggan said:

As you might expect, the paper doesn't say - for each of the three subjects it just gives a few physical characteristics, shows a sample power file during their respective events (i.e., kilo, flying 200 m, 500 m), and states that they all are or were World Champions in sprint (i.e., non-endurance) track cycling.

Trying to sit back and hold my tounge but as you know there comes a point that I cant🙂 Why cant someone post a file that shows a 10.5 200 and the guys height and weight. Then do the same for a Kilo....maybe a 105 or so...No names ,no dates, no pics just a file. The only one I have seen is the sample on the SRM website. Ok I am going back to my corner