Electric bicycles: Viable or not?

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

why do you say that?

Out in the boonies with no health care and probably no health coverage, totally
reliant on her physical health/strength.

I'd think she's just a strained back or broken leg away from financial ruin....
not to mention dental care.

Buddy of mine from my surfing days on Oahu did something like that a long time
ago. Went back to visit him and see how his life came out a couple years ago.
He had maybe six teeth left....
--
PeteCresswell

"Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chalo said:

Those are electric, but they are not bicycles-- and in many locations
won't have the same access and privileges as a bicycle.

Is that true? Is it necessary that it have pedals? Or is a speed
limited to 20mph good enough?

Here (the UK) the speed limit under power is 15 mph and certainly the bike
must have pedals to be able to use cycle paths and enjoy the normal bicycle
benifits, otherwise it needs to be registered and insured etc as a motor
vehicle so it will vary according to local laws.

Quoted message said:

The Giant Lite and the Charger look like viable machines, but I
question the practicality of cranks on an electric scooter.

I agree about the Giant Lite, no experience or knowledge of the charger but
it looks good on the website. The O/P will need to act fast as Giant Twists
(the European name) and Lites are being discontinued (although parts should
still be avail for several years to come). A scooter is not an electric bike
and I think should be thought of alongside (albeit small) motor vehicles -
not something I'm interested in due to the lack of exercise.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I suspect that these types of drivetrains (torque multiplying) are not
as efficient as a pure electric drive... so that the rider's energy is
mostly wasted.

The Giant Lite uses a highly respected Panasonic power plant. Alot of
research has gone into those and its built into the bottom bracket precisely
for maximum efficiency, with these the riders energy is definitely not
wasted.

Quoted message said:

So why bother with human power at all? Add 50lbs of batteries to give
it a good range, and ditch the pedals...

Then you'd be thinking "passive" motor vehicles where you don't get any
exercise.

Paul

I am using a touring bike, steel frame, 700c32 tires.
A Windsor Tourist with racks, and panniers. I recently fabricated a side
holder for my company laptop case as well.
I run a lot of lights as well. In the winter, it is mostly dark going to
work and mostly dark going home too.
So one needs a lot of battery power to keep a light lit for that long. Plus
I run several LED tail lights as well.
This is a light fails I have extras already there.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Earl Bollinger said:

Quoted message said:

why did you start doing this again?

Because I can do it.
When I had first started riding, it seemed impossible, but as my strength

What kind of bicycle are you using?

A touring bike?

Ron Ruff said:

Chalo said:

Those are electric, but they are not bicycles-- and in many locations
won't have the same access and privileges as a bicycle.

Is that true? Is it necessary that it have pedals? Or is a speed
limited to 20mph good enough?

Here in Washington State, the guidelines are as follows:

- an electric assisted bike must have fully operative pedals
- it may not assist at a power level more than 1000W
- the bike may not supply assist at speeds over 20 mph

There is a category for "motorized foot scooter" that does not require
pedals, and this category enjoys the same freedom from licensing
requirements as electric-assist bicycles. I do not know whether it has
different access privileges to roads, sidewalks, and MUPs compared to a
bicycle.

Quoted message said:

I suspect that these types of drivetrains (torque multiplying) are not
as efficient as a pure electric drive... so that the rider's energy is
mostly wasted.

At the feeble levels of power output we are discussing, the ability of
bikes like the Lite and the Charger to use their variable ratio gearing
for the electric assist pays big dividends in both performance and
range.

Quoted message said:

So why bother with human power at all? Add 50lbs of batteries to give
it a good range, and ditch the pedals...

That's clearly one approach. The folks I know who are happiest with
their electric bikes, though, use something like the Giant Lite or
(even better) Stokemonkey:

http://cleverchimp.com/

In my opinion, Todd Fahrner's Stokemonkey is the most capable
expression yet of the potential of electric assist. If I thought I
could use a normal Xtracycle without structural problems, I'd already
have a Stokemonkey. One day, I'll contrive a workaround that lets me
use one anyway.

Chalo

Earl Bollinger said:

I am using a touring bike, steel frame, 700c32 tires.
A Windsor Tourist with racks, and panniers. I recently fabricated a side

OK

Nice bike

I'm in market for a REAL touring bike...that's why I
ask

I only have a mt bike right now and altho its nice is
just too slow for any distance

(PeteCresswell) said:

Buddy of mine from my surfing days on Oahu did something like that a long time
ago. Went back to visit him and see how his life came out a couple years ago.
He had maybe six teeth left....

Point taken

But did he do drugs, eat poorly, drink, not take care
of himself

The woman in link I gave you was VERY health conscious

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

But did he do drugs, eat poorly, drink, not take care
of himself

I wouldn't want to speculate. But I would venture that if me or my wife had no
dental care, we'd be in the same boat tooth-wise.... and we're pretty
health-conscious.

But she's young and we're not.... Plenty of time/energy for experimentation
there and I'd guess she still has living parents or other family in case she
gets to a point where she needs somebody to beam her aboard.... so I wouldn't
put down what she's doing - just wouldn't recommend that anybody locks
themselves into it as a long term solution.
--
PeteCresswell

Per Chalo:

Quoted message said:

http://cleverchimp.com/

Looks like the dream commuter bike for somebody that wants it for
economy/convenience but isn't particularly into biking for it's own sake.
--
PeteCresswell

Quoted message said:

(PeteCresswell) said:

Buddy of mine from my surfing days on Oahu did something like that a long time
ago. Went back to visit him and see how his life came out a couple years ago.
He had maybe six teeth left....

Point taken

But did he do drugs, eat poorly, drink, not take care
of himself

The woman in link I gave you was VERY health conscious

Dear Me,

I expect that Pete is thinking along the same lines as Thomas Hobbes:

'No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual
fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor,
nasty, brutish, and short."

Consider the average lifespan before massive improvements in medicine,
sanitation, and growing enough food to avoid famine. The typical RBT
poster would have been dead for years instead of hunting and pecking at
a keyboard.

As an amusing sidelight, I glanced at an anti-Darwinian book on the
library shelves yesterday and saw that the author argued that Darwin
must be wrong because his theory involved high infant mortality, "but
do you know anyone whose children died in infancy?" (The author
probably also scoffed at the notion that anyone could starve to death.)

In the well-developed, non-Hobbesian world, our young do quite well and
we eat too much, but in the third world, the children still die like
flies, while their parents starve and die of illnesses and accidents
that we no longer even think about. All the while, they lose teeth,
eyesight, and all sorts of other things that we take for granted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_life_span

If you want a literary sidelight on the tooth issue, here's H. Rider
Haggard's "King Solomon's Mines":

"I ascertained that the dark man /was/ a naval officer, a lieutenant of
thirty-one . . .

"The officer's name I found out--by referring to the passengers' lists
--was Good--Captain John Good. He was broad, of medium height, dark,
stout, and rather a curious man to look at. He was so very neat and so
very clean-shaved, and he always wore an eye-glass in his right eye.It
seemed to grow there, for it had no string, and he never took it
out except to wipe it. At first I thought he used to sleep in it, but
afterwards I found that this was a mistake. He put it in his trousers
pocket when he went to bed, together with his false teeth, of which he
had two beautiful sets that, my own being none of the best, have often
caused me to break the tenth commandment."

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/8kslm10.txt

Note that both Haggard's hero Quartermain and the 31-year-old Royal
Navy captain (carelessly promoted from lieutenant in a paragraph) have
false teeth and that this dental disaster is perfectly normal in 1898.
Later in the novel, Good's false teeth startle the natives.

In the comfortable modern world of RBT, 31-year-old fellows do not
normally have two beautiful sets of false teeth (hockey players
excepted). But in the more Hobbesian world that most of us only visit
briefly, the false teeth would be prized as a luxury.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

But did he do drugs, eat poorly, drink, not take care
of himself

I wouldn't want to speculate. But I would venture that if me or my wife had
no
dental care, we'd be in the same boat tooth-wise.... and we're pretty
health-conscious.

But she's young and we're not.... Plenty of time/energy for experimentation
there and I'd guess she still has living parents or other family in case she
gets to a point where she needs somebody to beam her aboard.... so I wouldn't
put down what she's doing - just wouldn't recommend that anybody locks
themselves into it as a long term solution.

http://www.bikefriday.com/main.cfm?fuseaction=news.article&ID=515&Categor
y=News

I was more concerned that she was apparently "carbon-conscious" and yet
using a wood-burning stove (albeit one claimed to be "efficient", and
relatively rarely-used...nonetheless, I'm not convinced she's better at
controlling her carbon emissions than whatever evil corporation provides
power to Hawaii).

Also, as attractive as her lifestyle sounds, locally we do not have any
feral pigs as a useful source of grease, and my wife has so far resisted
my idle desire to get a bowhunting license for Canada geese. I wouldn't
hunt for sport; just revenge.

-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Ryan Cousineau said:

Also, as attractive as her lifestyle sounds, locally we do not have any
feral pigs as a useful source of grease, and my wife has so far resisted
my idle desire to get a bowhunting license for Canada geese. I wouldn't
hunt for sport; just revenge.

As the squirrels hunker down in their redoubts.

--
Michael Press

Ryan Cousineau said:

I was more concerned that she was apparently "carbon-conscious" and yet
using a wood-burning stove (albeit one claimed to be "efficient", and
relatively rarely-used...nonetheless, I'm not convinced she's better at
controlling her carbon emissions than whatever evil corporation provides
power to Hawaii).

The thing about burning biomass is that the carbon gets sequestered
again as the tree (or whatever) regrows-- which isn't the case with
fossil fuels. True or not, biofuels are assumed to be carbon neutral.
The only time this is a poor assumption is if the land being used
becomes so despoiled (through erosion etc.) that the vegetable matter
used as fuel can't be regrown.

Chalo

quote='Chalo'Ron Ruff said:

Chalo said:

Those are electric, but they are not bicycles-- and in many locations
won't have the same access and privileges as a bicycle.

Is that true? Is it necessary that it have pedals? Or is a speed
limited to 20mph good enough?

Here in Washington State, the guidelines are as follows:

- an electric assisted bike must have fully operative pedals
- it may not assist at a power level more than 1000W
- the bike may not supply assist at speeds over 20 mph

There is a category for "motorized foot scooter" that does not require
pedals, and this category enjoys the same freedom from licensing
requirements as electric-assist bicycles. I do not know whether it has
different access privileges to roads, sidewalks, and MUPs compared to a
bicycle.

Quoted message said:

I suspect that these types of drivetrains (torque multiplying) are not
as efficient as a pure electric drive... so that the rider's energy is
mostly wasted.

At the feeble levels of power output we are discussing, the ability of
bikes like the Lite and the Charger to use their variable ratio gearing
for the electric assist pays big dividends in both performance and
range.

Quoted message said:

So why bother with human power at all? Add 50lbs of batteries to give
it a good range, and ditch the pedals...

That's clearly one approach. The folks I know who are happiest with
their electric bikes, though, use something like the Giant Lite or
(even better) Stokemonkey:

http://cleverchimp.com/

In my opinion, Todd Fahrner's Stokemonkey is the most capable
expression yet of the potential of electric assist. If I thought I
could use a normal Xtracycle without structural problems, I'd already
have a Stokemonkey. One day, I'll contrive a workaround that lets me
use one anyway.

Chalo[/QUOTE]

The 20 mph is fairly universal in most states with a few at 25 or 30.
1000W is extreme with 400W a common limit.

The ebikes had a legal exception carved out for them that kept them from being classified as motorized vehicles. The rational was as the electric was primarily assisting the pedals, the vehicles were still pedal bicycles. 400W and 20 mph were initially selected as representing litmus tests as to what most persons might be able to generate for a short burst (EU selected 250 W and 25 kph, Japan selected 20 kph). In time, some jurisdictions morphed the power and speed levels in their legislatures. An electric scooter lacks the pedals, hence the electrics are not an assist for the rider but the primary propulsion so it isn't an ebike.

quote='Chalo said:

Anyone here have a bicycle that they converted to
electric use?

If yes... how is it working out?

I've done three and I am working on a fourth. They've all worked out
in their own ways, but none of them have been so satisfactory as to
keep me from wanting something more.

My first conversion was a completely homemade affair using cheap
electric scooter parts. It had good performance (cruise at 18-20mph
with good climbing), mediocre range of roughly 10 miles in hilly
Seattle, and iffy reliability (it threw its drive chain regularly).
The bike weighed just under 80 lbs. On the plus side, it cost me just
a little over $200 plus the bike.

My second conversion was a Crystalyte brushless hub motor kit I bought
directly from the manufacturer in China. I paid almost $600 for the
kit, and I had to build my own wheel because I needed a special rim.
Performance was comparable to my first conversion, but without the
ability to coast freely because of magnetic drag in the hub.
Reliability was good, and the bike weighed just over 100 lbs. The
biggest change from my earlier electric bike was an increase in range
to about 20 miles.

My third conversion was a brushed hub motor system on a cruiser for my
wife. It was slow (not more than 15 mph), with short range of about 8
miles; but it was also cheap, simple, and easy to use for its intended
purpose of neighborhood errands.

The conversion I'm working on now is an upgrade of my second conversion
(the brushless hub motor). I have increased the system voltage to 48V
for more speed (up to 30mph), and I have switched to a stronger bike
frame and moved the batteries to a trailer. It is no longer directly
comparable to a normal bike.

For a first/only conversion, I recommend a hub motor kit for its
simplicity and adaptability to a range of bikes. Wilderness Energy
offers inexpensive brushed hub motor kits ($190 to $350). There are
more efficient hub motor kits of varying levels of sophistication, some
using brushless motors. Heinzmann and BionX are the best and most
expensive ones at $1000 to $1500; GoHub is a solid kit that doesn't
require a lot of technical expertise or finish work to install and
carries a modest price ($570).

The Currie/USPD kit is another option (if you can find this
out-of-production item), but it requires that you have a rear wheel
built around the Currie hub, and it limits your choices of gearing
somewhat.

An easily available stock kit, in my experience, will not give you
satisfactory performance if you do not wish to pedal. They are all
intended as assist to the pedals and not as the bike's sole source of
propulsion. There are choices available for an electric moped that
will not be pedaled much, but they are more DIY than the package kits.

Any electric bike conversion done on a modest budget will be heavy (40
to 50 lbs. added to the bike is typical), so use a good sturdy bike to
start with. Sealed lead-acid batteries are the baseline power source,
and they will comprise most of the weight of your kit. Know where they
will be mounted and whether that's acceptable to you before you buy a
kit. For instance, most kits place the batteries on a rear rack; if
you want to use your rear rack for other things, you'll have to figure
out another place to put the batteries.

You can have reasonable range, reasonable speed, or reasonable system
weight, but not all three at the same time. If you play your cards
right, you can have two out of the three. If you want to go more than
20 miles at more than 20mph, you may have to live with a bike that
weighs 100 lbs. or more. Having a clear idea about what speed and
operating range you really need will help you find what you are looking
for. You will make of the most of your purchase cost and system weight
by buying only as much performance as you will actually use.

Chalo Colina[/QUOTE]

As Oldgirl and Chalo have already taken the words out of my mouth, I'll supplement that with ebikes are particularly usefull in avoiding working up a big sweat in those 90 plus temperatures as you get a cooling breeze without the big effort that results in excessive sweating. When commuting, it is nice to be able to get to work without having worked up a big sweat. Also, a redundant propulsion system is beneficial in the event something fails in the pedal drive.

Have you guys seen the Optibike? The Optibike has the absolute best
styling of any E-bike, highest recorded E-Bike range (103 miles on a
charge), overall the fastest E-bike in production (35+ mpg) and the
best hill climbing ability in the industry. Also comes stock with
industry leading name brand components (Fox Shox, Avid Disk Brakes,
Shimano, etc.)

All Optibikes are hand-built in Boulder Colorado using domestically
made custom parts.

www.optibike.com

watch the Optibike climb pikes peak www.optibike.com/pikes peak

contact me for more info: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Anyone here have a bicycle that they converted to
electric use?

If yes... how is it working out?

The optibike is an awesome looking bike. However, the price for the entry
level bike is $5500. To add on the lithium batteries to get the 100 mile
range, I can only guess you're up around $8000 or so. Then there's the fact
that the bike has only been shipping a short time and mostly it's been
vaporware. But it is possible to get on the waiting list.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have you guys seen the Optibike? The Optibike has the absolute best
styling of any E-bike, highest recorded E-Bike range (103 miles on a
charge), overall the fastest E-bike in production (35+ mpg) and the
best hill climbing ability in the industry. Also comes stock with
industry leading name brand components (Fox Shox, Avid Disk Brakes,
Shimano, etc.)

All Optibikes are hand-built in Boulder Colorado using domestically
made custom parts.

www.optibike.com

watch the Optibike climb pikes peak www.optibike.com/pikes peak

contact me for more info: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Anyone here have a bicycle that they converted to
electric use?

If yes... how is it working out?

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per Chalo:

Quoted message said:

http://cleverchimp.com/

Looks like the dream commuter bike for somebody that wants it for
economy/convenience but isn't particularly into biking for it's own sake.

Pete, why do you say that? If you ever drive a car to carry less than
200 pounds of people or cargo besides yourself less than 20 miles or
so, does that mean you're not "particularly into biking"? I designed
Stokemonkey as an alternative to driving cars, not to riding bikes, for
people who like to ride bikes. If you don't like riding bikes, you
probably wouldn't like it as well as some other electric designs, and I
wouldn't recommend it. I've been posting sporadically to r.b.t since
1998, have never owned a car, have house and kid, bike more miles
unassisted than otherwise and will always choose biking over other ways
of getting around, by whatever means necessary.

Quoted message said:

I designed
Stokemonkey as an alternative to driving cars

What is the intended usage of the stoke monkey?

To haul very heavy loads such as wood, furniture, etc?

Quoted message said:

What is the intended usage of the stoke monkey?

Family newsgroup, buddy.

Quoted message said:

What is the intended usage of the stoke monkey?

To haul very heavy loads such as wood, furniture, etc?

Whatcha got? It was intended primarily to multiply the utility of an
Xtracycle
(http://xtracycle.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=real_loads),
letting people haul those sorts of loads in hills, heat, longer
distances, higher speeds, etc. It's also useful for longer, faster
commutes. See the site for detail: http://cleverchimp.com/ .
(Disclaimer: commercial interest.)