Downer Cows

"hahabogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Diary Cows aren't the usual source for human meat supplies. As these are older animals (therefore
tougher/stringier), and the dairy cow has a

better

Quoted message said:

medical history (more visits from the vet) than a for beef bred cow; Because of the rules and
regulations for milk and cheese. These types of animals are used in beef stock cubes, potted
meats, pet foods and

cosmetics

Quoted message said:

normally. More inspectors would help stop this kind of thing. But since inspectors cost money
it'll never happen...

And a lot of the dairy cows that do make it to the human meat supplies are not sick at all. They're
cows that get sold because they aren't producing enough milk to pay for their feed or haven't been
able to be bred back (where talking like 9-10 attempts to bred at least and no pregnancy)... Sad,
yes, but part of the economics...

Quoted message said:

It could have been worse...the farmer could have just shot and burried the cow....which would have
hidden the problem longer allowing it to spread more.

God, I hope that when they figure out who put the cow products into the cow feed, that a.) they FDA,
etc. slaps huge fines and criminal penalties, and that the owners of the sick cow sue.

Mark Thorson said:

Nancy Young said:

Well, unless I'm out of date, as of this morning they were still tracing the origin of the cow.
If it came from Canada, it might have been legally fed something banned here, at some point.

Yup, I just KNEW the Canadians were behind this somehow!

You know how they are.

At any rate, before everyone gets in an uproar, my point was, let's find out how this cow became
infected. Where did it become infected. Whacky stuff like that.

nancy

On 12/26/2003 11:36 AM, in article
[email hidden], "DRB" <[email hidden]>
opined:

Quoted message said:

"The Wolf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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You seem like an ethical person. Do you know if a human has EVER

contracted

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this disease from eating beef? England, Canada, etc.? I know the

government

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goes WAY overboard with banning shellfish from certain waters. The only people to die from
tainted shellfish are alcoholics who's livers don't

work

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properly.

I know there were the people in England that have gotten CJD, but I'm not sure if it came from
what most of us American's would consider proper cuts of beef that were processed like they were
supposed to or if it came from consuming the unmentionables or cuts that were cross-contaminated.
It's that whole culture thing where stuff that does get eat in one place isn't touched in another.
I think America tends to lean towards the puritanical. I think I remember reading that there have
only ever been 153 documented cases of CJD world-wide total. I wonder if someone somewhere has
gone back and figured out how each person contracted it.

I also wonder if maybe some people are just more susceptible to it than others. It seems like if
the odds of contracting it were all that high, there would have been more cases.

Quoted message said:

It is kind of funny, you know you're in bad shape when Mexico refuses to import your beef!

That is true, but I still think I'd rather eat American meat than anything I saw in Tijuana....

I said that tongue-in-cheek.

Tijuana is the filthiest place I've ever said except the Philippines.

At this point, I think everyone is just being really

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cautious... Perhaps overly. If you listen to the news these days, I figure if you don't die from
CJD, al-queda will get you, and if they don't get you, you'll die in an earthquake. Maybe its time
for us all to run around and scream "we're doomed, we're doomed" <jk>.

--
=======================================
Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses.
=======================================

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The basic methodology behind the opposition, is that slaughtering a

healthy

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and "robust" cow will produce healthy meat product, while a "downer cow"

is

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often sickly or otherwise unhealthy. In reality, I doubt your average farmer would attempt to
present a diseased cow for slaughter, as even the thought might make people question his meat's
health next time.

The average farmer is no different than any other 'average' business man. You should have learned
within the last 18 months that where money in the pocket is concerned we cannot trust anyone to do
the right thing. That's cynical, I know. But I find your logic just far too naive. You surely don't
buy into all that prepared swill that our government began regurgitating within hours of the
discovery? About how the system works because we found the animal? Hello?--where are the rest of the
animals--that one didn't get the special feed all by itself. I've got to stop here because I feel a
real rant coming on. My mind is still somewhat open on the safety of beef; a lot will depend on what
I hear in the coming weeks. Janet

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Diggery Dew said:

Gentlemen,

What horse [censored] these people are spewing!! I live in Yakima, Washington the dairy this cow came
from sent it to market SICK, the vet took samples to be tested and they still sent it to a
slaughter house in Moses Lake Washington, split it up then sent parts to Centralia Washington.
Then parts of the processed meat was sent to Oregon.

This cow had SYMPTOMS, it was SICK. 73 percent of all SICK and injured cows are butchered for
human consumption! The only reason they are able to track the cows lineage and history is that
it is a dairy cow. Plan old beef steers have no paper work.

To pass this off as a "Oh, I thought there was more to the story" is dumb.

I'd like to know why they were feeding dairy cows grain laden with animal protein.

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

Doesn't the protein somehow get transformed into muscle and other tissue?

On 12/26/2003 4:10 PM, in article [email hidden], "Janet
Bostwick" <[email hidden]> opined:

Quoted message said:

You should have learned within the last 18 months that where money in the pocket is concerned we
cannot trust anyone to do the right thing.

Don't speak in code.......*if* you have something to say show some balls and say it.

hahabogus said:

sf <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

DRB said:

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> I'd like to know why they were feeding dairy cows grain laden with animal protein.
>

In general, lactating dairy cows, as any lactating animal, need a lot of protein and high
energy foodstuffs. Animal proteins are a good source for the protein, but cow byproducts are
not not not supposed to go into feed for other cows in this country. Other animal proteins--
fish meal, for example, are safe.

I'm not concerned with what's considered "safe" in this discussion (believe it or not). I'm not
a farmer or a scientist, but logic tells me that at the very least - grazing animals aren't
built to consume animal proteins. My real question is "Why can't cattle be fed extra protein
from better suited, vegetative sources, like soya"?

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

Price is the overlaying reason for all of this. Animal meal is cheaper, "sick" cows are cheaper.
Unless you want high beef costs cheap methods and rules apply.

Animal meal is cheaper to make and buy than soy meal.

"Sick" Cows (within certain guidelines) can be bought by meat packers for less therefore they can
sell for less and make money.

Diary Cows aren't the usual source for human meat supplies. As these are older animals (therefore
tougher/stringier), and the dairy cow has a better medical history (more visits from the vet) than
a for beef bred cow; Because of the rules and regulations for milk and cheese. These types of
animals are used in beef stock cubes, potted meats, pet foods and cosmetics normally. More
inspectors would help stop this kind of thing. But since inspectors cost money it'll never
happen...

It could have been worse...the farmer could have just shot and burried the cow....which would have
hidden the problem longer allowing it to spread more.

--
And the beet goes on! (or under) -me just a while ago

And there is proof that other farmers haven't already been doing this?

"The Wolf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 12/26/2003 4:10 PM, in article [email hidden],

"Janet

Quoted message said:

Bostwick" <[email hidden]> opined:

Quoted message said:

You should have learned within the last 18 months that where money in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pocket is concerned we cannot trust anyone to do the right thing.

Don't speak in code.......*if* you have something to say show some balls

and

Quoted message said:

say it.

Well, I was thinking in terms of the Enron and mutual funds and clones scandals and how those
businessmen lined their pockets to the detriment of millions. But now you mention it, in the broader
scope, it makes a fine political statement. Janet

On 12/26/2003 8:22 PM, in article [email hidden], "Janet
Bostwick" <[email hidden]> opined:

Quoted message said:

"The Wolf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 12/26/2003 4:10 PM, in article [email hidden],

"Janet

Quoted message said:

Bostwick" <[email hidden]> opined:

Quoted message said:

You should have learned within the last 18 months that where money in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pocket is concerned we cannot trust anyone to do the right thing.

Don't speak in code.......*if* you have something to say show some balls

and

Quoted message said:

say it.

Well, I was thinking in terms of the Enron and mutual funds and clones scandals and how those
businessmen lined their pockets to the detriment of millions. But now you mention it, in the
broader scope, it makes a fine political statement. Janet

You and I would've never heard of Enron if Cheney didn't work for them.

Just come out and say you hate Bush. I hate Clinton and am proud of it.

If he wasn't preoccupied with getting his knob polished by fat little kids and didn't gut the
military and CIA maybe we would still have a World Trade Center. *That* is Bubba's legacy.........
--
===========================================================
"Grand pappy told my pappy back in my time son, a man had To answer For the wicked that he'd done."
===========================================================

Nancy Young said:

Mark Thorson said:

Nancy Young said:

Well, unless I'm out of date, as of this morning they were still tracing the origin of the cow.
If it came from Canada, it might have been legally fed something banned here, at some point.

Yup, I just KNEW the Canadians were behind this somehow!

You know how they are.

At any rate, before everyone gets in an uproar, my point was, let's find out how this cow became
infected. Where did it become infected. Whacky stuff like that.

nancy

People have joked about Europeans being able to trace the lineage of the beef, pork and poultry they
buy in the supermarket. Now we see the real reason it is done, and has been done for several years.

Ever wonder why we test 30,000 cows out of 300,000,000, and claim that our beef is the safest in
the world?

Testing is a great idea Nancy. But you ever wonder why the results of tests taking in the United
States are back AFTER the cow was slaughered and shipped all over the Norhtwest? Other countries can
test virtually all their beef, with results completed before slaughter is finished.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and avoid the people, you might bet-
ter stay home."
-- James Michener

On 12/26/2003 7:43 PM, in article
[email hidden], "alzelt"
<[email hidden]> opined:

Quoted message said:

Nancy Young said:

Mark Thorson said:

Nancy Young wrote:

> Well, unless I'm out of date, as of this morning they were still tracing the origin of the cow.
> If it came from Canada, it might have been legally fed something banned here, at some point.

Yup, I just KNEW the Canadians were behind this somehow!

You know how they are.

At any rate, before everyone gets in an uproar, my point was, let's find out how this cow became
infected. Where did it become infected. Whacky stuff like that.

nancy

People have joked about Europeans being able to trace the lineage of the beef, pork and poultry
they buy in the supermarket. Now we see the real reason it is done, and has been done for
several years.

Ever wonder why we test 30,000 cows out of 300,000,000, and claim that our beef is the safest in
the world?

Testing is a great idea Nancy. But you ever wonder why the results of tests taking in the United
States are back AFTER the cow was slaughered and shipped all over the Norhtwest? Other countries
can test virtually all their beef, with results completed before slaughter is finished.

*Other* countries aren't trying to feed 300,000,000 people.

--
===========================================================================
"The first requisite of a good citizen in this Republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing
to pull his weight. That he shall not be a mere passenger," Theodore Roosevelt.
===========================================================================

alzelt <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Nancy Young said:

Mark Thorson said:

Nancy Young wrote:

>Well, unless I'm out of date, as of this morning they were still tracing the origin of the cow.
>If it came from Canada, it might have been legally fed something banned here, at some point.

Yup, I just KNEW the Canadians were behind this somehow!

You know how they are.

At any rate, before everyone gets in an uproar, my point was, let's find out how this cow became
infected. Where did it become infected. Whacky stuff like that.

nancy

People have joked about Europeans being able to trace the lineage of the beef, pork and poultry
they buy in the supermarket. Now we see the real reason it is done, and has been done for
several years.

Ever wonder why we test 30,000 cows out of 300,000,000, and claim that our beef is the safest in
the world?

Testing is a great idea Nancy. But you ever wonder why the results of tests taking in the United
States are back AFTER the cow was slaughered and shipped all over the Norhtwest? Other countries
can test virtually all their beef, with results completed before slaughter is finished.

In other words you get what you pay for... Cheap Beef. Not necessarily a good thing.

--
And the beet goes on! (or under) -me just a while ago

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

You and I would've never heard of Enron if Cheney didn't work for them.

Well - we're heard of Halliburton and we KNOW Cheney draws a check from them.

Quoted message said:

Just come out and say you hate Bush. I hate Clinton and am proud of it.

If he wasn't preoccupied with getting his knob polished by fat little kids and didn't gut the
military and CIA maybe we would still have a World Trade Center. *That* is Bubba's legacy.........

You just hate the fact that Clinton got his [censored] sucked. That he was

Sorry I had to do that, but you set yourself up for it.

I find both parties to be equally loathsome regardless of the candidates they field. Why? Because
big money (Aka large corporate donations in exchange for access to power.) contributes to both.

It's time for a third, fourth, even fifth major party in the United States along with some major
reform codified in a constitutional amendment.

Read some things by Martin Gross or Arianna Huffington to get an idea what I'm talking about here.

the standard test used to detect BSE in cows is to cut off its head and study the brain cells.
Unfortunately, once an animal is subjected to the test, it's shelf life is greatly reduced.....

Living deep in the heart of Canadian cattle country, and having family and friends that raise them,
my heart goes out to the US ranchers... we've seen what ignorance, overreaction and press hype can
do to the cattle industry.....

Bob

"Jeff Davis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Diggery Dew said:

Gentlemen,

What horse [censored] these people are spewing!! I live in Yakima,

Washington the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dairy this cow came from sent it to market SICK, the vet took samples

to be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tested and they still sent it to a slaughter house in Moses Lake

Washington,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

split it up then sent parts to Centralia Washington. Then parts of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

processed meat was sent to Oregon.

This cow had SYMPTOMS, it was SICK. 73 percent of all SICK and

injured

Quoted message said:

cows

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are butchered for human consumption! The only reason they are able

to

Quoted message said:

track

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the cows lineage and history is that it is a dairy cow. Plan old

beef

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

steers have no paper work.

To pass this off as a "Oh, I thought there was more to the story" is

dumb.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to know why they were feeding dairy cows grain laden with animal protein.

I'd like to know why the cow was sent off before the test results were returned. The government
said the beef supply is safe. I'm sure gonna miss my steaks.

We'll wait and see if it actually came from Canada... I'm betting its just a bunch of hype to be
honest. Unfortunately, the USA has a tough time finding accountability at home and likes to find
others to blame... Of course, if the US industry insisted on keeping track of animals better, they'd
be able to say with some certainty where the animal came from.

There is nothing allowed in Canadian feed that can cause BSE, just like US feed. However, due to
whatever circumstances, I'm sure feed in both countries gets "tainted" in the manufacturing process,
blame the feed manufacturers if you like, I'd consider them open game.....

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DRB said:

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to know why they were feeding dairy cows grain laden with animal protein.

Quoted message said:

My family has a dairy farm. We would never intentionally feed our cows

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stuff that they're not supposed to have. We don't want them getting

sick.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is a certain amount of trust you put in the manufacturer that

they're

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doing what they're supposed to and making a safe product for your

animals to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

eat, and it's maddening when something like this happens.

Well, unless I'm out of date, as of this morning they were still tracing the origin of the cow. If
it came from Canada, it might have been legally fed something banned here, at some point.

nancy

I ran across this abstract the other day..

1: Genome. 2003 Dec;46(6):1005-1009.

Prion protein gene sequence of Canada's first non-imported case of bovine spongiform
encephalopathy (BSE).

Coulthart MB, Mogk R, Rancourt JM, Godal DL, Czub S.

In May 2003, Canada became the 22nd country outside of the United Kingdom to report a case of bovine
spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) in an animal not known to be imported from a country with cattle
previously affected by this fatal, transmissible prion disease. Despite extensive testing of
thousands of other animals that may have been exposed to contaminated feed at the same time as the
affected animal, no evidence has been found for other infections. This finding leaves room for
conjectures that the single confirmed case arose spontaneously, perhaps (by analogy with human
Creutzfeldt&ndash;Jakob disease) as a result of a somatic protein misfolding event or a novel
germline mutation. Here we present DNA sequence data from the affected animal's prion protein coding
sequence that argue definitively against the latter hypothesis.

PMID: 14663519 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Bob Westcott said:

We'll wait and see if it actually came from Canada... I'm betting its just a bunch of hype to be
honest. Unfortunately, the USA has a tough time finding accountability at home and likes to find
others to blame... Of course, if the US industry insisted on keeping track of animals better,
they'd be able to say with some certainty where the animal came from.

There is nothing allowed in Canadian feed that can cause BSE, just like US feed. However, due to
whatever circumstances, I'm sure feed in both countries gets "tainted" in the manufacturing
process, blame the feed manufacturers if you like, I'd consider them open game.....

"Nancy Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DRB said:

"sf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

> I'd like to know why they were feeding dairy cows grain laden with animal protein.

Quoted message said:

My family has a dairy farm. We would never intentionally feed our cows the stuff that they're
not supposed to have. We don't want them getting sick. There is a certain amount of trust you
put in the manufacturer that they're doing what they're supposed to and making a safe product
for your animals to eat, and it's maddening when something like this happens.

Well, unless I'm out of date, as of this morning they were still tracing the origin of the cow.
If it came from Canada, it might have been legally fed something banned here, at some point.

nancy

hahabogus said:

In other words you get what you pay for... Cheap Beef. Not necessarily a good thing.

This issue got me to thinking about kosher beef. Since the kosher tradition bans the use of any part
of any cow for human consumption if the animal is found to be sick in any way, is kosher beef less
likely to harbor Mad Cow Disease than non-kosher beef?

[email hidden] wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

hahabogus said:

In other words you get what you pay for... Cheap Beef. Not necessarily a good thing.

This issue got me to thinking about kosher beef. Since the kosher tradition bans the use of any
part of any cow for human consumption if the animal is found to be sick in any way, is kosher beef
less likely to harbor Mad Cow Disease than non-kosher beef?

Really good question. I wonder if the kashering process is preceded by or includes a rigorous health
inspection. I have often bought Kosher meats just because the quality has often seemed better.

Wayne

On 12/27/2003 10:16 AM, in article [email hidden],
"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> opined:

Quoted message said:

hahabogus said:

In other words you get what you pay for... Cheap Beef. Not necessarily a good thing.

This issue got me to thinking about kosher beef. Since the kosher tradition bans the use of any
part of any cow for human consumption if the animal is found to be sick in any way, is kosher beef
less likely to harbor Mad Cow Disease than non-kosher beef?

Don't know but would guess it's cost prohibitive to stamp all beef kosher. The market for kosher
beef in the U.S. Is only about (what's 4% of 300,000,000 people?)
--
==========================================================================
"When a broad table is to be made, and the edges of planks do not fit, the artist takes a little
from both, and makes a good joint. In like manner here, both sides must part with some of their
demands," Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
==========================================================================

Wayne Boatwright wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

hahabogus said:

In other words you get what you pay for... Cheap Beef. Not necessarily a good thing.

This issue got me to thinking about kosher beef. Since the kosher tradition bans the use of any
part of any cow for human consumption if the animal is found to be sick in any way, is kosher
beef less likely to harbor Mad Cow Disease than non-kosher beef?

Really good question. I wonder if the kashering process is preceded by or includes a
rigorous health inspection. I have often bought Kosher meats just because the quality has
often seemed better.

as far as i remember, thats basically true, especially with "glatt" kosher items (animals lungs <and
other organs, i think> are inspected and were free from lesions)

--
Saerah

TANSTAAFL

"We're all one thing, Lieutenant. That's what I've come to realize. Like
cells in a body. 'Cept we can't see the body. The way fish can't see the
ocean. And so we envy each other. Hurt each other. Hate each other. How
silly is that? A heart cell hating a lung cell." - Cassie from THE THREE