direct drive freewheel

[email hidden] (Andrew Malizia) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all, I am trying to make a "green machine" like
bigwheel. I am a little bit too large for the new huffy
ones. I am building the frame and everything, but I have a
little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new huffys use a
freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can
do is use a unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So,
basically, does anyone know of a place I can get a
freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and have
the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim,
but is there a hub that I can get commercially. I have
talked to a few bike shops here and they have had trouble
helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center
of the wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

I've never seen anything like that commercially available,
but something similar was used on Fred Tatch's Manuped
(circa 1977?):
ihpva.orgManuped1.jpgOpen ↗
ihpva.orgManuped2.jpgOpen ↗

If you can make it up, Fred will probably be at the Human
Power Challenge this weekend in Portland:
ohpv.orgindex.htmOpen ↗ . If not, email me privately-
I can put you in touch with Fred.

Jeff

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Jeff Wills) said:

[email hidden] (Andrew Malizia) wrote in
message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all, I am trying to make a "green machine" like
bigwheel. I am a little bit too large for the new huffy
ones. I am building the frame and everything, but I have
a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new huffys
use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel,
but I cannot find anything close to this. The only thing
I can do is use a unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So,
basically, does anyone know of a place I can get a
freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and have
the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the
rim, but is there a hub that I can get commercially. I
have talked to a few bike shops here and they have had
trouble helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center
of the wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

Believe it or not, Shimano made something like that long,
long ago. It was a component group where the chainrings
turned with the rear wheel, in order to make shifting while
not pedalling possible.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

[email hidden] (Andrew Malizia) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all, I am trying to make a "green machine" like
bigwheel. I am a little bit too large for the new huffy
ones. I am building the frame and everything, but I have a
little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new huffys use a
freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can
do is use a unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So,
basically, does anyone know of a place I can get a
freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and have
the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim,
but is there a hub that I can get commercially. I have
talked to a few bike shops here and they have had trouble
helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

This may not be much help but back in the early 70s Schwinn
had a bottom bracket that freewheeled. That is, if you pedal
backwards the chainrings didn't move. I can't remember what
they called it. I have one of those bikes myself. If you
could find one perhaps you could adapt that mechanism.

Tom

On 25 May 2004 12:18:33 -0700, [email hidden] (Andrew

Malizia) may have said:

Hello all, I am trying to make a "green machine" like
bigwheel. I am a little bit too large for the new huffy
ones. I am building the frame and everything, but I have a
little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new huffys use a
freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do
is use a unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically,
does anyone know of a place I can get a freewheel from that
can be mounted to a frame, and have the pedals attached
straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is there a hub
that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks

Perhaps you should step back and look at one of your basic
assumptions first. A "Big Wheel" tricycle with a wheel of a
tractable size will make a very slow-moving vehicle. Part of
the reason why the original bikes which used a direct-drive
wheel were displaced by the present design was that they had
an inherent upper limit to their speed capability owing to
the driect drive itself and the limitations it imposed due
to the finite (and rather short, in this context) length of
the human leg. One rotation of a 36" wheel produces 113
inches of forward motion. One rotation of the cranks on a
bike that has a 26" OD wheel and a 3.5:1 gear ratio produces
285 inches of forward motion. At a cadence of 75rpm, a 36"
wheel will only be running at 8 mph...which is not a useful
speed for that much exertion. At 75rpm, the other bike will
be tooling along at 20mph.

There is a reason why the Big Wheel is made and sold
exclusively for children. It looks fast, but it's actually
very slow, and its low CG makes it very hard to upset,
unlike a conventional erect trike. Only the latter
characteristic would have any chance of being considered an
advantage anywhere else. Even then, the practical
disadvantages of a low sightline, combined with the safety
hazard of a low profile that makes it hard for motor vehicle
drivers to see you, would make this sort of design suitable
only for appropriate competitions...and in those venues, the
lack of a suitable crank-to-final-drive ratio would make it
noncompetitive.

Do some more research into basic HPV design issues and
concepts. It would be wise to learn from the mistakes and
experiences of others before setting out to make your own.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via
e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a low
sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low
profile that makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to
see you, would make this sort of design suitable only for
appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who
have never extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the
public roads believe it is.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<rcousine-
[email hidden]>... <snip> >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the
center of the wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

Believe it or not, Shimano made something like that long,
long ago. It was a component group where the chainrings
turned with the rear wheel, in order to make shifting
while not pedalling possible.

Dang it, you're right. The Shimano Front Freewheel System
would be an excellent basis for an adult "Big Wheel",
gearing notwithstanding.

However, adult-size fun trikes are easily available- just
not the configuration that was described:
trailmate.comfunCycleSeries.cfmOpen ↗

Jeff

On Wed, 26 May 2004 23:32:28 -0500, Tom Sherman

may have said:

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a low
sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low
profile that makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to
see you, would make this sort of design suitable only for
appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who
have never extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the
public roads believe it is.

There's a fellow who used to ride a low 'bent to work on the
other side of Houston who would disagree, after an incident
in which a vehicle ran him down despite a pole flag. I
haven't seen him since the last time I visited his workplace
in the early '90s, but I know he switched to an upright bike
for his commutes after that hit. It was the fact that he
couldn't see over the line of stopped vehicles to his right
as he came up the left turn lane which put him at risk; a
jerk turning left from the cross street nearly clipped the
fender of the car to his right, and went directly over the
front of his bike, dragging it another fifty feet before
stopping. Had he been on an erect bike, he'd have had enough
visibility to see the idiot coming. That's his analysis, not
mine. He still liked 'bents, and still had one, but didn't
ride it in heavy traffic after the hit. I can't say as I
blame him for being cautious.

BTW, his daily commute was just over 3 miles; as he put it,
too far to walk in hot weather, not far enough to get the
car's engine warmed up...but the only viable route had lots
of motor vehicle traffic. I think he said he'd been riding
to work for nearly a year when the collision happened, and
had seen a lot of near-miss situations in that time. The
rides I've taken on a friend's 'bent have convinced me to
stay with a conventional bike in city traffic. What isn't at
a car driver's eye level (and in some cases, anything that
doesn't outweigh their vehicle) doesn't seem to exist to
some of them.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via
e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On 26 May 2004 21:59:55 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Wills) may

have said:

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<rcousine-
[email hidden]>... <snip> >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the
center of the wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

Believe it or not, Shimano made something like that long,
long ago. It was a component group where the chainrings
turned with the rear wheel, in order to make shifting
while not pedalling possible.

Dang it, you're right. The Shimano Front Freewheel System
would be an excellent basis for an adult "Big Wheel",
gearing notwithstanding.

However, adult-size fun trikes are easily available- just
not the configuration that was described:
trailmate.comfunCycleSeries.cfmOpen ↗

Yup, not a single direct-drive in the bunch, but they look
like they could be interesting. Trikes still have the wide
path problem, though.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via
e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

design was that they had an inherent upper limit to
their speed

...

Quoted message said:

of the human leg. One rotation of a 36" wheel produces 113
inches of forward motion. One rotation of the cranks on a
bike that has a 26" OD wheel and a 3.5:1 gear ratio
produces 285 inches of forward motion. At a cadence of
75rpm, a 36" wheel will only be running at 8 mph

I've got the answer: Schlumpf. Or maybe something like a
Sclhumpf but made out of a Rohloff for more gears. Can a
Rohloff (or a Sturmey Archer 3-speed, if the OP hasn't got
money to blow) take the stress of doubling as a, er, well,
not-quite-bottom-bracket? A couple cottered cranks and he'd
be all set...except maybe the freewheeling issue.

Quoted message said:

There is a reason why the Big Wheel is made and sold
exclusively for children. It looks fast, but it's actually
very slow, and its low CG makes it very hard to upset,
unlike a conventional erect trike

This is evil propoganda against FWD fixed direct drive
recumbent trikes, and I'll have none of it, damn you! <G>
--
Rick Onanian

(Andrew Malizia) said:

I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I
am a little bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am
building the frame and everything, but I have a little
problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new huffys use a
freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I
can do is use a unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So,
basically, does anyone know of a place I can get a
freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel.

What you describe is apt to require some significant
machining, but it can be done.

You will probably have to make at least a hub shell. You
should look into using needle roller clutches or sprag
clutches pressed into a hub shell:

timken.comneeOpen ↗
dle/dcupetal.pdf
renoldusa.comdm.htmlOpen ↗

They're not nearly strong enough to carry normal pedal
torque if you use an ordinary-sized spindle; it'll have to
be bigger than normal. BMX cranks with smooth 20mm spindles
are commonly available, and there was a crank by Solid that
used a 1" spindle:

cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dllOpen ↗
63

You might get good results brazing a hard steel sleeve over
the center section of a splined spindle in order to increase
its diameter. If you decide to machine a spindle from
scratch, pick a crank that uses a simple spindle end (such
as the Primo Powerbite that features non-tapered square
flats 19mm across on its 22mm spindle) to make the interface
easier to reverse-engineer.

danscomp.comcgiOpen ↗
bin/hazel.cgi?action=DETAIL&item=451057

Using a stack of 4 or 5 needle clutch/bearings or 2 sprag
clutches and 2 bearings inside a simple spool-shaped hub
shell would probably do the trick. The wheel would mount to
the fork legs in unicycle fashion. It's doubtful that a
regular unicycle would work as a fork, because your
oversized spindle will require oversized bearings.

In my experience, you'll want to use as large a wheel as you
can, for decent rollout and acceptable speed. So-called "29
inch" (700c) MTB tires provide a great option. On my Big
Wheel, I use a Schwalbe Big Apple 700x60 tire that measures
almost 30" tall when inflated.

You'll also want to use short cranks. I use 127mm cranks on
my Big Wheel. This is at odds with cranks that use an
oversized spindle, since those almost always come in 175 or
180mm. If you use a solid aluminum crank like the Primo,
though, you can drill and tap pedal threads partway up the
crank arms, and cut off the excess. I have done this to
185mm Primos to make 152mm cranks for a trials bike. Shorter
cranks should be even easier.

Good luck! Feel free to email me for more specific
information.

Chalo Colina

Werehatrack said:

A "Big Wheel" tricycle with a wheel of a tractable size
will make a very slow-moving vehicle.

Yeah, so? You're only as slow as you feel. And you feel
pretty fast with your feet out front turning at 120rpm.

Quoted message said:

At a cadence of 75rpm, a 36" wheel will only be running at
8 mph...which is not a useful speed for that much
exertion. At 75rpm, the other bike will be tooling along
at 20mph.

And at zero foot rpm in a Cadillac, you can be hauling along
at 100 mph. That doesn't make a Caddy more fun than a bike,
does it? A Big Wheel is more fun than a bike, and slower,
and used for a different set of purposes.

Quoted message said:

There is a reason why the Big Wheel is made and sold
exclusively for children. It looks fast, but it's actually
very slow, and its low CG makes it very hard to upset,
unlike a conventional erect trike.

Actually, it's because kids intuitively understand
activities that are fun and have no other purpose. And
because Big Wheels are usually made of molded plastic and
can only support a lightweight compact size human.

Quoted message said:

Even then, the practical disadvantages of a low sightline,
combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would
make this sort of design suitable only for appropriate
competitions...

Like this!: captain.obvious.home.att.net1190dOpen ↗
rags/_cat.html

bigwheelrally.home.att.netbigwheelrally.home.att.netOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

and in those venues, the lack of a suitable crank-to-final-
drive ratio would make it noncompetitive.

Pish-tosh! That's what racing categories are for.

Quoted message said:

Do some more research into basic HPV design issues and
concepts. It would be wise to learn from the mistakes and
experiences of others before setting out to make your own.

My only mistake, if you could call it that, was making mine
so big it could serve an eight-footer in its outmost
adjustment.

deadbabybikes.orgbigwheel.jpgOpen ↗

This is V2.0 beta of my Big Wheel. It now sports a taller,
slicker tire in front, wider square-treaded wheels in back,
and more robust plastic pedals. Originally it had a steel
unicycle frame adapted for fork use, but the pedaling forces
raked it out. I machined the fork you see here from aluminum
bars and CrMo steel rod. The legs are tapered in thickness
and hollowed out on the inward faces.

That's a Herman Miller Eames shell chair; a windfall to me
in its legless state.

Chalo Colina

On 27 May 2004 17:48:36 -0700, [email hidden] (Chalo) may

have said:

My only mistake, if you could call it that, was making mine
so big it could serve an eight-footer in its outmost
adjustment.

deadbabybikes.orgbigwheel.jpgOpen ↗

This is V2.0 beta of my Big Wheel. It now sports a taller,
slicker tire in front, wider square-treaded wheels in back,
and more robust plastic pedals. Originally it had a steel
unicycle frame adapted for fork use, but the pedaling
forces raked it out. I machined the fork you see here from
aluminum bars and CrMo steel rod. The legs are tapered in
thickness and hollowed out on the inward faces.

That's a Herman Miller Eames shell chair; a windfall to me
in its legless state.

I must say, as usual, you do nice work, but how does the
cat pedal it?

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via
e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On 27 May 2004 17:48:36 -0700, [email hidden]

(Chalo) may have said:

deadbabybikes.orgbigwheel.jpgOpen ↗

I must say, as usual, you do nice work, but how does the
cat pedal it?

Cats don't do work. They command their humans to do the work
for them. We do as they say.

I'll post some pictures of kittens when I get around to
posting some pictures of my bikes over on rec.bicycles.misc.
--
Rick Onanian

Tom Sherman said:

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a low
sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low
profile that makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to
see you, would make this sort of design suitable only
for appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who
have never extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the
public roads believe it is.

I'll second that.

I have fewer close calls and less rudeness with my ass-on-the-
ground trike than on an ordinary. Drivers tend to give me a
wide berth, and I assume they consider me handicapped, or
crazy, or both. Works for me.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Ted Bennett said:

Tom Sherman said:

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a low
sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low
profile that makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to
see you, would make this sort of design suitable only for
appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who
have never extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the
public roads believe it is.

I'll second that.

I have fewer close calls and less rudeness with my ass-on-the-
ground trike than on an ordinary. Drivers tend to give me
a wide berth, and I assume they consider me handicapped,
or crazy, or both. Works for me.

Recumbent trike owners are crazy.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area Blue Earth Cycles
Dragonflyer 🙂

[email hidden] (Jeff Wills) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center
of the wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

I've never seen anything like that commercially available,
but something similar was used on Fred Tatch's Manuped
(circa 1977?):
ihpva.orgManuped1.jpgOpen ↗
ihpva.orgManuped2.jpgOpen ↗

Actually, Fred didn't make it, but Gardner Martin (of Easy
Racers) was up and was riding an unusual (tough to be
unusual at a recumbent event!) hand-and-foot powered trike
that featured a Manuped-like drivetrain, with a Rohloff hub
for shifting and an Aerospoke front (powered) wheel. The
crank axle went right through the center of the wheel. Very,
very interesting.

Keep looking at the www.ohpv.org website- we should have
pictures up real soon now.

Jeff

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Andrew Malizia
Hello all, I am trying to make a "green machine" like
bigwheel. I am a little bit too large for the new huffy
ones. I am building the frame and everything, but I have a
little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new huffys use a
freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do
is use a unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically,
does anyone know of a place I can get a freewheel from that
can be mounted to a frame, and have the pedals attached
straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is there a hub
that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

Hey Andrew,
I have been looking to do the same thing, but I'm trying to build a direct drive recumbent. The speed problem isn't an issue for me as this will be for running short errands around town. I was tempted to just try and build it with a unicycle hub but I'm rethinking that and I thought about buying a replacement wheel and fork end parts from Huffy and relace the hub to a larger wheel. I would then attach the new wheel and parts to a unicyle fork. Anyway that is my current plan of attack.