Decent road wheels

VisionSet said:

Thinking of replacing the stock Sora/Mavic CX22 wheels on
my Claude Butler Torino road bike: falconcycle-falconcycle-Open ↗
s.co.uk/product.php?c.id=3&s.id=1&p.id=122

Although I'm pretty impressed with them as a stock wheel
they have gone a little out of true with the odd pothole.
I did a similar upgrade on my old

Quoted message said:

which I think is similar to the current MA3 rim, they have
remained true for all of that time!! Hence I'm happy to go
for Mavic again, well they're good enough for the pros...
Question is which ones? Priority is lightweight, remaining
true and ~£150 per pair, even if that is 'nearly new'.
I've had a look on their website and the Ksyrium Equipe
seems to fit the bill, if I go for 2nd hand what should I
look for to be sure some one isn't pulling a fast one. Any
comments on these or others I should look at in this price
range? And will they stay true? TIA

The cheapest option is a spoke key and Jobst Brant's book
The Bicycle Wheel. With that you can bring the existing
wheels up to tension and they will thereafter remain true.
There are lots of expensive handbuilt wheels out there that
are undertensioned from old traditions and as a consequence
don't remain true and even break spokes. A spoke key
correctly used can transform your current wheels from what
they are to what you want.

Tony

VisionSet said:

Although I'm pretty impressed with them as a stock wheel
they have gone=

a

Quoted message said:

little out of true with the odd pothole. <snip> Question
is which ones? Priority is lightweight, remaining true
and ~=A3=

150

Quoted message said:

per pair

Remaining true is to some extent related to the ability of
the=20 wheelbuilder coupled with the quality of spokes
s/he's using. Any rim=20 will go out of true if you use [censored]
spokes of disastrously unequal tensio= ns.

For the time being, why not just spend a little on getting
someone that=20 knows what they're at with wheels to do a
really good truing job on your =

existing ones? It seems that not being true is your only
real grumble.=20 and you'll save a stack of cash that way.
Maybe put it towards a=20 wheelbuilding course, so you can
do an expert job at truing them=20 yourself in future?

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382
660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44
1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote:

: The cheapest option is a spoke key and Jobst Brant's book
: The Bicycle Wheel.

True, but personally I can never be bothered.

That said, I'd suggest a good pair of conventional wheels,
built my someone good.

Some Ultegra hubs/Sapim double butted spokes/Mavic Open Pro
rims wheels should come in at around your price range and be
a fair bit lighter than what you have.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a
philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Tony Raven said:

VisionSet said:

Thinking of replacing the stock Sora/Mavic CX22 wheels on
my Claude Butler Torino road bike: falconcycle-falconcycle-Open ↗
s.co.uk/product.php?c.id=3&s.id=1&p.id=122

Although I'm pretty impressed with them as a stock wheel
they have gone a little out of true with the odd pothole.
I did a similar upgrade on my old

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which I think is similar to the current MA3 rim, they have
remained true for all of that time!! Hence I'm happy to go
for Mavic again, well they're good enough for the pros...
Question is which ones? Priority is lightweight, remaining
true and ~£150 per pair, even if that is 'nearly new'.
I've had a look on their website and the Ksyrium Equipe
seems to fit the bill, if I go for 2nd hand what should I
look for to be sure some one isn't pulling a fast one. Any
comments on these or others I should look at in this price
range? And will they stay true? TIA

The cheapest option is a spoke key and Jobst Brant's book
The Bicycle Wheel. With that you can bring the existing
wheels up to tension and they will thereafter remain true.
There are lots of expensive handbuilt wheels out there
that are undertensioned from old traditions and as a
consequence don't remain true and even break spokes. A
spoke key correctly used can transform your current wheels
from what they are to what you want.

Tony

I don't know if it is right, but I was told that unless the
wheel was originally hand-made, it'll go out of true sooner
or later, regardless of how expensive or how good it's
supposed to be, and that anything other than a really really
cheap and nasty wheel can be restored to (in all likelyhood)
better than newness by having it redone by hand.

Of course, this is probably only the case if an experience
wheelbuilder does it, rather than someone like me (who's
never done it before)..

Velvet

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

VisionSet said:

Although I'm pretty impressed with them as a stock wheel
they have gone a little out of true with the odd pothole.
<snip> Question is which ones? Priority is lightweight,
remaining true and ~£150 per pair

Remaining true is to some extent related to the ability of
the wheelbuilder coupled with the quality of spokes s/he's
using. Any rim will go out of true if you use [censored] spokes of
disastrously unequal tensions.

For the time being, why not just spend a little on getting
someone that knows what they're at with wheels to do a
really good truing job on your existing ones? It seems that
not being true is your only real grumble. and you'll save a
stack of cash that way. Maybe put it towards a wheelbuilding
course, so you can do an expert job at truing them yourself
in future?

Fair enough, I'll go and true it up. If I remember correctly
it is a case of locate untrue bit (marker pen & spin seems a
good way) then 1/4 turn loosen, 1/4 turn tighten, 1/2 turn
loosen, 1/2 turn tighten, 1/4 turn loosen, 1/4 turn tighten
- or similar for duration of untrue bit. They are Mavic
CXP21 rims by the way, and the old Mavic rims I've got are
MA40's, now I've actually rubbed my face in it, there are a
fair few loose spokes, so we'll see how it fairs after my
dabbling. Certainly can do without spending the cash.

--
Mike W

Velvet said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know if it is right, but I was told that unless
the wheel was originally hand-made, it'll go out of true
sooner or later, regardless of how expensive or how good
it's supposed to be,

Not true. A good way of getting a cheap good wheel is to buy
a machine built one and then finish it off yourself by hand
following the Brant recipe.

Quoted message said:

and that anything other than a really really cheap and
nasty wheel can be restored to (in all likelyhood) better
than newness by having it redone by hand.

That seem to contradict your first statement

Quoted message said:

Of course, this is probably only the case if an experience
wheelbuilder does it, rather than someone like me (who's
never done it before)..

Not at all. I and many others build all our own wheels
having started from your position and most of those I know
get far better results than the "experienced" local wheel
builders. The reason is that many professional wheelbuilders
have had techniques handed down through apprenticeship from
days when component quality was much lower than even the
cheap components today. Those of us working from the Brant
book follow techniques that are appropriate to modern
components and get out of them the performance you want
which includes not going out of true.

Tony

Tony Raven said:

Velvet said:

I don't know if it is right, but I was told that unless
the wheel was originally hand-made, it'll go out of true
sooner or later, regardless of how expensive or how good
it's supposed to be,

Not true. A good way of getting a cheap good wheel is to
buy a machine built one and then finish it off yourself by
hand following the Brant recipe.

Quoted message said:

and that anything other than a really really cheap and
nasty wheel can be restored to (in all likelyhood) better
than newness by having it redone by hand.

That seem to contradict your first statement

Quoted message said:

Of course, this is probably only the case if an experience
wheelbuilder does it, rather than someone like me (who's
never done it before)..

Not at all. I and many others build all our own wheels
having started from your position and most of those I know
get far better results than the "experienced" local wheel
builders. The reason is that many professional
wheelbuilders have had techniques handed down through
apprenticeship from days when component quality was much
lower than even the cheap components today. Those of us
working from the Brant book follow techniques that are
appropriate to modern components and get out of them the
performance you want which includes not going out of true.

Tony

I think what I was trying to say was that a machine-made
wheel isn't as good as the same wheel but tweaked by a
person rather than just relying on the machine to get it
true and tensioned properly.

Velvet

Velvet said:

I think what I was trying to say was that a machine-made
wheel isn't as good as the same wheel but tweaked by a
person rather than just relying on the machine to get it
true and tensioned properly.

In principle a machine built wheel can be just as good as a
hand built wheel but higher the quality the exponentially
longer the machine takes. Most factories, driven by cost and
throughput, are not prepared to have the machine take that
long and so pull it off at a "good enough to be able to sell
it" stage. Some good bike shops will always finish off the
machine built wheels by hand - a little time makes a huge
difference and saves the customer coming back to have the
wheel re-trued or a broken spoke replaced under warranty.

Tony

Tony Raven said:

Velvet said:

I think what I was trying to say was that a machine-made
wheel isn't as good as the same wheel but tweaked by a
person rather than just relying on the machine to get it
true and tensioned properly.

In principle a machine built wheel can be just as good as
a hand built wheel but higher the quality the
exponentially longer the machine takes. Most factories,
driven by cost and throughput, are not prepared to have
the machine take that long and so pull it off at a "good
enough to be able to sell it" stage. Some good bike shops
will always finish off the machine built wheels by hand -
a little time makes a huge difference and saves the
customer coming back to have the wheel re-trued or a
broken spoke replaced under warranty.

Tony

Agreed, which was the point I was making - probably far more
cost-effective for the OP to have the wheel retrued (by
himself or LBS) than simply go and purchase another set of
wheels that may or may not go out of true in similar
timescale.

Velvet

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

machine-made

I'd love to see a machine that makes wheels. Does anyone
know of how it's done...any pictures on the web anywhere?

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission

MSA said:

I'd love to see a machine that makes wheels. Does anyone
know of how it's done...any pictures on the web anywhere?

Then you'll love this site: hollandmechanics.comhollandmechanics.comOpen ↗

In article <4069ceb2.0@entanet>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

MSA said:

I'd love to see a machine that makes wheels. Does anyone
know of how it's done...any pictures on the web
anywhere?

Then you'll love this site:
hollandmechanics.comhollandmechanics.comOpen ↗

Wow, I'm impressed!

Cheers!

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Agreed, which was the point I was making - probably far
more cost-effective for the OP to have the wheel retrued
(by himself or LBS) than simply go and purchase another
set of wheels that may or may not go out of true in
similar timescale.

I believe there are basically two reasons for going out of
true, one the spoke issue well discussed here, and the
quality of the rim. I may be wrong in this but I feel that
the wheel is one place that money is saved producing an off
the peg bike, a good place in my opinion since it is childs
play for anyone to upgrade. Certainly my old Raleigh
benefitted from the Rigida to Mavic upgrade and I have been
so impressed that maybe it has clouded my judgement. I was
of the opinion that the CXP21 was probably a fairly crumby
rim, despite the Mavic name. I have now trued up the wheel,
which did have a few loose spokes. We'll see how it fairs.
Anyone care to elaborate on the Brant method?

I need a complete clipless pedal setup advice then ;-)
Laters...

--
Mike W

VisionSet said:

I need a complete clipless pedal setup advice then ;-)
Laters...

Using a spanner or allen key as appropriate, screw the pedal
firmly into the crank having first cleaned and then greased
the threads. And, errrr, that's it! Cleat setup in the shoe
depends on the shoe (does it have slots or discrete holes?)
but pretty much a case of start with it about where you'd
have your foot on a platform pedal and bugger about
empirically until you're happy with it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It seems that not being true is your only real grumble.
and you'll save a stack of cash that way. Maybe put it
towards a wheelbuilding course, so you can do an expert
job at truing them yourself in future?

If the OP is anywhere near Cambridge, he might be interested
in the Saturday workshops I run.

Timing: 10am to 5 pm Cost: approx £30 Venue: Coleridge
Community College, Radegund Road, Cambridge CB1 3RJ

ENROLMENTS Please phone 'LifeLong Learning' on 01223 712340
or 712341. Office hours 10-12am and 6.30-9pm. Payment
(including credit card by phone) secures a place.

RESERVES LIST When all places are gone, please ask your name
to be held on the reserves list. It is not unheard of for
places to become available at short notice!

INFORMATION The information sheet for this workshop can be
downloaded as <web.onetel.net.ukwheelOpen ↗
bld_1day_info.pdf>. If you have questions about course
content, please call me on my daytime number 01223 449304,
or email me [email hidden].

Peter Clinch said:

VisionSet said:

I need a complete clipless pedal setup advice then ;-)
Laters...

Using a spanner or allen key as appropriate, screw the
pedal firmly into the crank having first cleaned and then
greased the threads. And, errrr, that's it! Cleat setup in
the shoe depends on the shoe (does it have slots or
discrete holes?) but pretty much a case of start with it
about where you'd have your foot on a platform pedal and
bugger about empirically until you're happy with it.

Pete.

But don't do what I did and read the advice about making
sure the cleats are bolted in very securely, then promptly
forget this when actually fitting them and think 'well a bit
of play means they'd end up in the right place on the bottom
of the shoe'.

Balancing on your bike (on it's trainer, so not as bad as
lying on the ground on your side still attached) whilst
learning how to undo shoelaces and extricate feet from
pedals without tipping whole lot over, followed by a LONG
time spent extricating cleats from shoes, then a LONG time
extricating cleats from pedals is NOT an effective use of
time (and doesn't do the shoes/cleats much good either).

If they're not tight, you don't stand a chance of
unclipping :-)

Velvet

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

VisionSet said:

I need a complete clipless pedal setup advice then ;-)
Laters...

Using a spanner or allen key as appropriate, screw the
pedal firmly into the crank having first cleaned and then
greased the threads. And, errrr, that's it! Cleat setup in
the shoe depends on the shoe (does it have slots or
discrete holes?) but pretty much a case of start with it
about where you'd have your foot on a platform pedal and
bugger about empirically until you're happy with it.

Actually I meant I wanted advice on a 'completely clipless
pedal setup' rather than advice on the setup of a completely
clipless pedal.

So what exactly do I go for - pedals & shoes? A huge
confusing array of choices coupled with the trickiest
purchases of all - foot envelopes. Like I don't have enough
specialised ones already what with 10 pairs of rock boots,
ski boots, & ice climbing boots.

Also can anyone cure my numb feet? A combination of cold and
pressure from toeclips, I have neoprene thingies which help.
I currently have a pair of shimano trainer type shoes.

Where the heck do you try this stuff on? We have one decent
shop in Nottingham (I think) Freewheel - and even that has
just 3 shoe models.

And pedals are even more of a nightmare, I haven't a clue.

--
Mike W

VisionSet said:

So what exactly do I go for - pedals & shoes? A huge
confusing array of choices coupled with the trickiest
purchases =

of

Quoted message said:

all - foot envelopes. Like I don't have enough specialised
ones alread=

y

Quoted message said:

what with 10 pairs of rock boots, ski boots, & ice
climbing boots.

I've got loads of specialised foot gubbins too, and one
thing I've=20 learned from all of it is that fit is of great
importance. Just because =

I like Scarpa ski boots doesn't mean your feet wouldn't be
better off in =

Crispis, and so it is with cycle shoes too. Decide what
broad type you=20 want (racing shoes have the most efficient
power transfer but render you =

incapable of walking normally, etc.) and then try everything
you can=20 find that conforms to the general description.

Pedals will depend on what cycling you do. If you're into
serious=20 roadery then probably Look or SPD-R will do you
best, though there's=20 nothing really wrong with plain
SPuDs, SPuD-u-like clones or Time ATACS=20 for road work
either. Any are better than clips and straps.

Quoted message said:

Also can anyone cure my numb feet? A combination of cold
and pressure =

from

Quoted message said:

toeclips, I have neoprene thingies which help. I currently
have a pair=

of

Quoted message said:

shimano trainer type shoes.

The toeclip pressure will go as soon as you go clipless.
Beyond that,=20 make sure as far as you can that the blood
getting to your feet isn't=20 nicely chilled before arrival:
perhaps tights rather than shorts will=20 help here. I found
going recumbent helped a lot there, but that's a bit =

of a drastic move just for warmer feet...

Quoted message said:

Where the heck do you try this stuff on? We have one
decent shop in Nottingham (I think) Freewheel - and even
that has just 3 shoe models.

I tried on mine at EBC, which used to be my LBS and I still
visit a few=20 times a year. It's not too far for you to a
lot of other sizeable towns =

in the Midlands so you should maybe cast your net
further afield.

Quoted message said:

And pedals are even more of a nightmare, I haven't a clue.

Anything should be better than clips and straps is your
bottom line, so=20 with a cheapy pair of SPuD-u-likes you
can't go *that* far wrong. If=20 you move on to Looks or
ATACs or whatever it's less than =A320 and you'll=
=20
have a spare pair or something for a hack bike with
more=20 walking-oriented shoes. Looks are generally faves
with the roadies so=20 you might jump straight there,
SPuDs give you a bigger range of=20 compatible footwear
though. FWIW I use Time ATACs with Speccy and=20
occasional off-road use. I'd get a stiffer shoe but keep
the ATACs (I=20 have several sets) if I was a bit more
serious than I am about going fast=
=2E

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382
660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44
1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I tried on mine at EBC, which used to be my LBS and I still
visit a few times a year. It's not too far for you to a lot
of other sizeable towns in the Midlands so you should maybe
cast your net further afield.

Okay I give in, what's EBC?

--
Mike W