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Dear Mister Loctite

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rec.sport.unicycling
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29 January 2008
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2 February 2008
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madc-ccc
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  1. Hi Folks!

    This one is just to give thanks to Mr. Robert Loctite (or whatever his
    firstname is 🙂 ).

    I'm the happy owner of a N36, but still I've been damaging cranks and
    cranks over the last 2 years, and shouting every day at those crappy
    square tapered axles/cranks. The cranks were systematically getting
    loose after some time - yet I tried quite a few different models, in
    aluminium, steel, of different brands, etc.

    This - until I decided, on last week-end, to (at last) make use of the
    Red Loctite tube I had bought from UDC quite a long time ago - without
    having since then taken the decision to "do it".

    Well... even though I read from RSU archives that the Blue one seems to
    be strong enough and that the Red Loctite was perhaps too strong for my
    purpose, at least I can testify after a few days of use that my
    problems are (fingers crossed) gone!

    I would therefore really recommend this Loctite trick to those of you
    who are desperate at owning square tapered axles/cranks.

    Cheers, MadC.

    PS: this being said, I am still dreaming about an ISIS-compatible wide
    hub to equip my 36er - NO DOUBT! May the new N36 from UDC be
    ISIS-based... 🙄

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  2. There's more to solving this problem than locking your bolts...

    I've found that aluminum square taper cranks will fail when large
    torques are applied, either slowly or catastrophically. Hence, I will
    only recommend using steel cranks on square taper hubs.

    I've also found that, unless one has access to an arbor press,
    installing square taper cranks isn't as simple as tightening a bolt...
    it's more of a process. The crank and axle must first be cleaned, then
    lubricated. The bolt must also be lubricated. Once tightened, the
    bolt must be re-tightened after every ride for some time until the
    crank "finds its seat" and stays put.

    If you only tighten your crank bolt once, you're running with a crank
    that may not be fully seated. That increases the risk of damaging the
    crank, ultimately leading to premature failure... and that's never fun
    when you're 10 miles from the nearest trailhead.

    Just my two cents.

    In short, Loc-tite works great for a short-term fix, but unless you
    install that crank correctly on your first try, you may be in for
    trouble in the long term.

    --
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  3. which loctite did you use? as far as i know loctite sell atleast 100
    different products which are red, usually there's a large number on the
    front of the pack i.e loctite 272

    --
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    Dave

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  4. madc-ccc said:

    This one is just to give thanks to Mr. Robert Loctite (or whatever his
    firstname is 🙂 ).

    That would be, "Thanks, Vern!" From http://www.loctite.com :

    "More than 50 years ago, Loctite® brand adhesives were developed in a
    Connecticut basement laboratory by Dr. Vernon Krieble."

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  5. kington99 said:

    which loctite did you use? as far as i know loctite sell atleast 100
    different products which are red, usually there's a large number on the
    front of the pack i.e loctite 272

    That's actually the '262' (http://tinyurl.com/2h36js).

    Cheers, MadC.

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  6. maestro8 said:

    I've found that aluminum square taper cranks will fail when large
    torques are applied, either slowly or catastrophically. Hence, I will
    only recommend using steel cranks on square taper hubs.

    Sure - I can definitely confirm this.

    maestro8 said:

    In short, Loc-tite works great for a short-term fix, but unless you
    install that crank correctly on your first try, you may be in for
    trouble in the long term.

    Oh, really? I'll do as if I had not read this one... 🙂

    maestro8 said:

    I've also found that, unless one has access to an arbor press,
    installing square taper cranks isn't as simple as tightening a bolt...
    it's more of a process. The crank and axle must first be cleaned, then
    lubricated. The bolt must also be lubricated. Once tightened, the
    bolt must be re-tightened after every ride for some time until the
    crank "finds its seat" and stays put.

    If you only tighten your crank bolt once, you're running with a crank
    that may not be fully seated. That increases the risk of damaging the
    crank, ultimately leading to premature failure... and that's never fun
    when you're 10 miles from the nearest trailhead.

    Very interesting... I may have underestimated this process from the
    beginning - not that I was doing it in a neglecting way, but for sure
    not as carefully as what you are describing.

    Cheers, MadC.

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  7. I don't know why people get so much trouble with square-taper cranks
    coming loose. I've only ever had two instances of cotterless cycle
    cranks coming loose in my life (which is a lot of riding, believe me) -
    once on my coker, with steel cranks, and once on the only splined set
    I've ever owned (on my winter commuting bike). Never had one problem
    with aluminium square-taper cranks on any cycle (bike or uni).

    I'm not a huge jumper or dropper and my xc riding style is to roll
    everything, but even so my muni cranks get a considerable amount of
    vibration on the rocky trails round here and are often dropped hard on
    rocks. I've had cracks developing in my muni cranks (prowheel 152s)
    but never any problem with the crank/hub interface.

    Am I just incredibly lucky, or unusually careful installing cranks
    (quick wipe clean, grease tapers, dab of mild thread-lock on the bolt,
    do up to 35lbf, never touch again for years), or not cool enough to
    break stuff (although I think the original poster was referring to road
    riding, not extreme muni or even xc)?

    Rob

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  8. The problem with the square taper design is that there is no stop on the
    hub/spindle to keep the cranks from sliding further up the taper when
    you pedal really hard. When you pedal really hard (or land a drop) the
    cranks will want to take some of that force and slide further up the
    taper. When you relax your pedaling the cranks will slide back down
    the taper. When the crank slides up the taper it reduces force on the
    bolt or nut that is holding the crank from falling off the tapers. If
    that force is reduced enough the bolt/nut can loosen by a fraction of a
    degree. Then the crank slides back down and the bolt/nut is tight
    again. That cyclic process means that the bolt/nut that holds the
    crank on can eventually become loose enough for the crank to fall off
    or the crank to become wobbly.

    Medium strength Locktite (or generic threadlocker) on the threads of
    the bolt or nut is enough to keep it from loosening on its own. If
    that bolt or nut stays tight, and the cranks were properly installed,
    and the taper on the cranks is not worn, the square taper setup can be
    reasonably reliable.

    There is no need to Loctite the taper itself. A little bit of grease
    will do fine there. The Loctite is just needed on the threads of the
    bolt or nut.

    Dave Stockton wrote up 'a procedure for installing square taper cranks'
    (http://tinyurl.com/blcbl). Follow that guide and your square taper
    problems on a Coker or other unicycle will be mostly solved.

    It is also important to use good cranks. Some cranks just have a wrong
    taper that doesn't properly match the taper on the hub. Other cranks
    are too soft and that allows the crank to move farther up the taper
    during hard pedaling and are more of a problem. Some steel cranks have
    a bad taper.

    I've been using Kooka cranks on my Coker and have never had a problem
    with a loose crank and I never expect to have a problem. They're the
    custom Kooka cranks with three pedal holes (130, 150, 170). I
    installed the cranks with Loctite when I first got them and haven't
    touched the retaining bolts since. When I want to change crank length
    I change the pedal position rather than changing cranks. I haven't
    touched or checked the tightness of the retaining bolts since
    installing the cranks (checking the tightness would break the Locktite
    bond and require that I re-Loctite the bolt and if the Loctite is
    holding there is no need to even bother). The steel square taper
    cranks I have on my freestyle unicycle have also never come loose.
    They've been on the unicycle for several years without me ever checking
    the tightness of the retaining nuts (checking the tightness would break
    the Loctite bond).

    ISIS Drive would be preferable to the square taper. An ISIS wide Coker
    hub would be nice especially now that there are suitable range of
    lengths and styles of ISIS unicycle cranks available. With ISIS you
    can forget about pretty much all of what I wrote above about square
    taper cranks.

    --
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  9. I had my pedal on my 24" Torker come loose and ruin the threading on my
    cranks. I'm now on my wife's 20" until I fix it. I'm a new rider, so
    I'm just getting initiated on the equipment and whatnot. I did however
    put some loctite on my wifes 20" and haven't had any problems so far...
    I will prob use loctite for insurance from now on, it's gotta be
    cheaper and easier than replacing crank arms and pedals.

    --
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  10. john_childs said:

    The problem with the square taper design is that there is no stop on the
    hub/spindle to keep the cranks from sliding further up the taper when
    you pedal really hard. When you pedal really hard (or land a drop) the
    cranks will want to take some of that force and slide further up the
    taper. When you relax your pedaling the cranks will slide back down
    the taper. When the crank slides up the taper it reduces force on the
    bolt or nut that is holding the crank from falling off the tapers. If
    that force is reduced enough the bolt/nut can loosen by a fraction of a
    degree. Then the crank slides back down and the bolt/nut is tight
    again. That cyclic process means that the bolt/nut that holds the
    crank on can eventually become loose enough for the crank to fall off
    or the crank to become wobbly.

    Thanks for the insight onto 'why' !!!

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  11. Brian MacKenzie said:

    Thanks for the insight onto 'why' !!!

    I'm not convinced at all by that explanation. Why would the crank try
    to force itself _further_ onto the taper when under load? If anything
    I'd expect it to be pushed _off_ the taper as it twists (i.e. against
    the bolt, not away from it). It can't move because the bolt is there.
    I agree that multiple shocks do eventually loosen the bolt, which is
    why threadlock helps. The continuous flexing of the crank-axle
    interface eventually wears the inside of the crank (which is always
    softer than the axle) and it will start to become loose, by which time
    it's usually too late so save them even if done up again (when it will
    indeed go further up the taper). Doing the crank bolt up very tightly
    in the first place stops the crank from squirming and prolongs the life
    (as long as the crank isn't such poor quality that it cracks when you
    do it up, like Maestro suggested - prowheel cranks are pretty meaty
    round the axle end and I've never had a problem with one cracking when
    done up tight [although I have had cracks in the middle of a prowheel
    crank]).

    As for the comment that square taper cranks are bad because they don't
    have an end stop to tighten against, I disagree with that as well.
    When you do up a square taper crank it goes up the taper until it is a
    tight fit against the axle faces. After a number of removals and
    refittings, it will go a bit further up the taper due to slight wear
    and distortion and will eventually reach a point when it touches the
    bearing holders or the bolt bottoms out, when the crank is scrap. But
    at least up until that point (which can be a very long time if you
    don't remove your cranks often) they fit perfectly.

    Splined axles with an end stop assume everything is perfect. There is
    nothing to take up any manufacturing tolerances or slight wear, so it's
    pretty much always slightly loose even when new and works the bolt free
    as it moves. The splined setup on my winter commuting bike is really
    quite nasty (it's not ISIS I don't think - some sort of proprietary
    Truvativ BB) and needs the bolt really firmly locktited up to stop it
    coming loose every few hundred miles. Presumably ISIS is a bit better,
    being a tapered design - and presumably doesn't use end stops (but I
    haven't really looked at an ISIS axle so I may be talking bollocks).

    I have honestly never had a problem with aluminium square taper cranks
    coming loose on bikes (including xc mountain bikes when I used to ride
    them) or unicycles. The only problem cranks for me have been steel
    ones on my coker and the Truvativ splined set I mentioned.

    Rob

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  12. rob.northcott said:

    I'm not convinced at all by that explanation.

    It's the explanation that Jobst Brandt came to after studying the
    issue. I've read several articles and old newsgroup posts about what
    he had to say about square taper cranks and his explanation makes the
    most sense from an engineering standpoint. Here's one of his articles
    on the subject: 'Installing Cranks'
    (http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html). There are
    others that you can find with web and newsgroup searches.

    Metal can have 'elastic deformation'
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformation). Aluminum cranks moreso
    than steel cranks. The elastic deformation would allow the cranks to
    slide up the taper and then slide back down while still being snug and
    tight. Because there is no stop on the taper to prevent the cranks
    from sliding further up the taper the cranks are free to elastically
    deform and slide up the taper then relax and slide back down.

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  13. OK :/

    It still makes no sense to me that the crank would try to slide further
    onto the taper when it stretches (I know about elasticity - I'm not an
    idiot). I could imagine it stretching (OK, elastically deforming if
    you like) and moving slightly over the corners of the square taper, but
    forcing itself further onto the taper just sounds ridiculous.

    But I see no point in arguing - the point is that fit cranks properly
    and do them up tightly and they don't just fall off.

    Rob

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  14. Too late to edit...

    I read the Jobst Brant article John linked to and he(?) does indeed
    suggest that the crank will "elbow itself away from the bolt and up the
    taper as it sqirms around" (not an exact quote but those are the words
    he uses). Very weird.

    Rob

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  15. It is weird. The force components are not intuitive or obvious. Mix in
    the effects of torque (right-hand rule), precession, and other factors
    and you can end up with force components going in directions that you
    don't expect.

    Maybe Harper can explain why?

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  16. john_childs said:

    It is weird. The force components are not intuitive or obvious. Mix in
    the effects of torque (right-hand rule), precession, and other factors
    and you can end up with force components going in directions that you
    don't expect.

    Maybe Harper can explain why?

    Must admit that i tend to agree with Rob, but as i respect your opinion
    I'm prepared to be open minded. As I've just got my hands on CAD/FEA
    software I thought I might knock up a model to see what happens, does
    anyone know dimensions of a standard square taper, particularly the
    angle of the taper?

    --
    kington99

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