Cyclists/elitism?

One old guy to another. Most of them are better than me - much better.

I have a 54/12. Came with the bike. Gearing is way too big - the hills are killing me. I'm headed back to the bike shop for a compact or a triple. I just want to have fun, not be elite.

My original point was the difference between runners and cyclists. It seems many, if not most runners, are supportive of even the most "unaccomplished" runner. However, many (not most) cyclists make newbies feels like they don't belong on the same road with them.

This won't stop me from cycling, because I enjoy it. I guess it would just be nice to see a newbie working hard going up a hill, and hear cyclist say, "good job,"

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

...Does this have to do with spending lots of money on bikes/equipment?

The exorbitant price of bicycles pretty much assures that most people riding them will be [censored].

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I guess it would just be nice to see a newbie working hard going up a hill, and hear cyclist say, "good job,"

I agree with you 100% and wish the same were true. But it all boils down to the company you keep. If you try to ride with hardcore roadies, i.e. the "I ride an $8,000+ bike. My wheelset cost more than your car. I logged 300 miles this week... and it's only Tuesday. My resting heart rate is 44bpm" then you aren't likely to get many of those "good jobs!" But if you ride with people more like myself... the "I lucked up and bought this Trek 5500 from a friend of mine for $500. My other bike is a 24 year old steel frame that my dad gave me. I only manage to get in about 50 miles a week because I am a full time husband and father on top of working full time. I bought my shorts and jersey from [censored]'s Sporting Goods, and that is good enough for me!" Then you are more likely to get those "good jobs!"

Of course, this isn't the case all the time. But it is a lot of the time. I can tell you from experience from a ride which was sponsored by a local cycling club. The majority of the first half of the 30 miles was me passing the slower riders and trying to see if I could catch up with the faster riders since they all decided to start the ride before everyone else. I finally managed to catch up with them at the turn around point and rode with them for about 5 miles when I flatted. Yhey dropped my like a hot potato! Not a single one in that group of about 8 riders stopped and offered me assistance. Keep in mind that this was not a race. It was just a group ride. I wasn't mad at them at all, but I can say with total conviction that had the shoe been on the other foot and one of them had flatted I would have gladly stopped and offered assistance. But that's just me.

You have the right idea though. Just keep riding because you enjoy it!

*Edit for clarification* This post is my opinion, and only an opinion. If anyone takes offense to it I do humbly apologize.

Agreed!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

My original point was the difference between runners and cyclists. It seems many, if not most runners, are supportive of even the most "unaccomplished" runner. However, many (not most) cyclists make newbies feels like they don't belong on the same road with them.

This won't stop me from cycling, because I enjoy it. I guess it would just be nice to see a newbie working hard going up a hill, and hear cyclist say, "good job,"

Not all runners are supportive of others as you have noted. They are human too. Some cyclist are runners and some runners are cylist like yourself.

Now go out there and be that cyclist saying "Good Job". There is no cyclist code that prevents you from doing so. But keep in mind that the newbie you are cheering on very well may be a jerk and interprets your encouragement as backhanded insult.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by qdc15 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The exorbitant price of bicycles pretty much assures that most people riding them will be [censored].

Actually it does not. It doesn't have a damned thing to do with whether a rider is an "[censored]" or not. That's the exact attitude that people have been discussing in this thread.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by stevegreer [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I agree with you 100% and wish the same were true. But it all boils down to the company you keep. If you try to ride with hardcore roadies, i.e. the "I ride an $8,000+ bike. My wheelset cost more than your car. I logged 300 miles this week... and it's only Tuesday. My resting heart rate is 44bpm" then you aren't likely to get many of those "good jobs!" But if you ride with people more like myself... the "I lucked up and bought this Trek 5500 from a friend of mine for $500. My other bike is a 24 year old steel frame that my dad gave me. I only manage to get in about 50 miles a week because I am a full time husband and father on top of working full time. I bought my shorts and jersey from [censored]'s Sporting Goods, and that is good enough for me!" Then you are more likely to get those "good jobs!"

Of course, this isn't the case all the time. But it is a lot of the time. I can tell you from experience from a ride which was sponsored by a local cycling club. The majority of the first half of the 30 miles was me passing the slower riders and trying to see if I could catch up with the faster riders since they all decided to start the ride before everyone else. I finally managed to catch up with them at the turn around point and rode with them for about 5 miles when I flatted. Yhey dropped my like a hot potato! Not a single one in that group of about 8 riders stopped and offered me assistance. Keep in mind that this was not a race. It was just a group ride. I wasn't mad at them at all, but I can say with total conviction that had the shoe been on the other foot and one of them had flatted I would have gladly stopped and offered assistance. But that's just me.

You have the right idea though. Just keep riding because you enjoy it!

*Edit for clarification* This post is my opinion, and only an opinion. If anyone takes offense to it I do humbly apologize.

It must be nice to be able to makes such sweeping generalizations without evaluating each person on their own merits. First, cost of bike has no bearing on whether someone is a hardcore roadie or not. Absolutely none.

Group rides: before trying a new group ride it's essential to find out what the group rules are, specifically do they slow or wait for drops, or do they keep going. The people organizing and participating regularly in a given group ride will be able to tell you this. Don't join group rides if they're riding according to rules of theirs that don't mesh with what you want. Simple.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by davereo [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Not all runners are supportive of others as you have noted. They are human too. Some cyclist are runners and some runners are cylist like yourself.

Now go out there and be that cyclist saying "Good Job". There is no cyclist code that prevents you from doing so. But keep in mind that the newbie you are cheering on very well may be a jerk and interprets your encouragement as backhanded insult.

Exactly. Another point to consider is that no one knows what state of mind someone else is in while they're riding, and it's really a waste of time and a way to tarnish, even if it's just a wee bit, a good ride. When I ride, I'm out there to enjoy myself, push myself, see scenery, or possibly for other purposes. If I'm pushing myself, I may not wave to someone or acknowledge them in any way. It has nothing to nothing to do with snobbery but has everything to do with concentrating on the task at hand. Likewise, if I wave at a cyclist, I don't presume anything about them if they don't wave back. Why would I? I can't read their minds. I'm not out on the road to get acknowledgement from other riders.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

It must be nice to be able to makes such sweeping generalizations without evaluating each person on their own merits. First, cost of bike has no bearing on whether someone is a hardcore roadie or not. Absolutely none..

It must be nice to totally overlook the fact that I stated my post was my OPINION! It was based entirely on observations that I personally have made. I also stated that "Of course, this isn't the case all the time." Maybe you didn't notice that part when you originally read my post. I do agree that cost of a bike has no bearing on whether a person is a hardcore roadie or not. Poor choice of words on my part. Sorry if I touched a nerve. But I appreciate your comments all the same.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Exactly. Another point to consider is that no one knows what state of mind someone else is in while they're riding, and it's really a waste of time and a way to tarnish, even if it's just a wee bit, a good ride. When I ride, I'm out there to enjoy myself, push myself, see scenery, or possibly for other purposes. If I'm pushing myself, I may not wave to someone or acknowledge them in any way. It has nothing to nothing to do with snobbery but has everything to do with concentrating on the task at hand. Likewise, if I wave at a cyclist, I don't presume anything about them if they don't wave back. Why would I? I can't read their minds. I'm not out on the road to get acknowledgement from other riders.

Good points! I will admit that I used to get offended when I did not get a return wave from other roadies. Not so much anymore though.

Although, it doesn't take much effort, and it doesn't really take away from your training to say "good morning," or simply waive...

wave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Although, it doesn't take much effort, and it doesn't really take away from your training to say "good morning," or simply waive...

Just as bad as an snobbery that some people display is the requirement that people have to wave. Such a requirement presumes a lot about people that those verklempt about people who didn't wave don't know. The really easy to do is to not get all wound up, upset, sad, indignant, or whatever just because someone didn't wave. Again, you have no idea what is going on in the mind of another rider pedaling down the road. No idea. He or she may be worried about a family issue. He or she may be thinking about a difficult problem at work. It doesn't matter because not waving isn't a big deal. It's nice when it happens, but it's of no impact at all if it doesn't. Simple.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Although, it doesn't take much effort, and it doesn't really take away from your training to say "good morning," or simply waive...

Really? Have you done much training near threshold? Try it sometime and see if you feel like waving at people. For safety sake or because the mind is battling with focus and discomfort.

One of the places I train is very popular with cyclists of all levels. When I am near my threshold on this flat course the speed ranges around 22 to 27 mph and I am down in the drops. I am not about to sit up and take my hands off the bars to wave at people while in a threshold interval. If someone waves at me I may give a head nod, but to be honest my mind typically registers that they waved when I am several hundred feet past them if at all.

I sure would not expect a guy or gal down on the aero bars with the TT bike in training to sit up and wave at me nor do I even expect them to give me a head nod. From my perspective I would rather they keep their mind on the business of training and being safe. If that makes me an elitist I fine with that.

C'mon you know you cannot focus on your own objectives without being an elitist. When cycling it is more important to worry about how you are perceived than what you are actually doing or thinking.

I started seriously riding road 3 years ago ... on a modified 1990 mtb even and no one has ever made me feel like I didn't belong. I've got 12,000 miles in with many different groups and events so it isn't like I haven't given "the elitists" a chance to dis me. The wave to me, treat me gingerly stuff is a bunch of BS.

Kind of proves the point. I don't cycle to be coddled. The point was that I've been doing endurance sports for many years, and I'm quite certain that overall, runners and cyclists are different. I don't care if you wave, in fact, I'd probably prefer that you just keep to yourself. Maybe my take is different. I've also been a physical trainer for several years in addition to running, cycling an swimming and have actually been interested in folks getting fit. I enjoy motivating others and this actually motivate me.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Really? Have you done much training near threshold? Try it sometime and see if you feel like waving at people. For safety sake or because the mind is battling with focus and discomfort.

One of the places I train is very popular with cyclists of all levels. When I am near my threshold on this flat course the speed ranges around 22 to 27 mph and I am down in the drops. I am not about to sit up and take my hands off the bars to wave at people while in a threshold interval. If someone waves at me I may give a head nod, but to be honest my mind typically registers that they waved when I am several hundred feet past them if at all.

I sure would not expect a guy or gal down on the aero bars with the TT bike in training to sit up and wave at me nor do I even expect them to give me a head nod. From my perspective I would rather they keep their mind on the business of training and being safe. If that makes me an elitist I fine with that.

I suppose that like most people you are doing your threshold work on the public roads.

For safety sake: Hands on the tops, or hoods. Look around a lot. Be aware of not only the bicyclists but the motorists.

---

I don't particularly care if people wave or not. I do prefer that when they pass me they leave the lane. If they don't leave the lane that they give me a couple feet of clearance. I do get annoyed when my shoulder gets bumped by a passing bicyclist.

But I don't get road rage when I drive. And I don't get road rage when I bicycle.

---

When I was young, bicyclists trained on the roads, but the attitude might have been different. For me and those I rode with the responsibilities of the road were more important than the training. Lots of effort was expended in making it easy for motorists to be around our bicycles.

If we had a need for speed, we had a number of flat, fast sections of road we could express our needs on. Clean road surface, wide lanes, good shoulder, little motor vehicle traffic, frequent bicycle traffic.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Kind of proves the point. I don't cycle to be coddled. The point was that I've been doing endurance sports for many years, and I'm quite certain that overall, runners and cyclists are different. I don't care if you wave, in fact, I'd probably prefer that you just keep to yourself. Maybe my take is different. I've also been a physical trainer for several years in addition to running, cycling an swimming and have actually been interested in folks getting fit. I enjoy motivating others and this actually motivate me.

Probably shouldn't have posted since I have no active exposure to the running community. As close as I come is a weekly TT practice event sponsored by a local Tri group. I also participate in a similar event which draws cyclists affiliated with local club/race organizations and unaffiliated cyclists. The social dynamics of both are basically the same. There are a number of strong riders who average 28-30 mph - so pretty accomplished cyclists. The tri group runs a longer course (14 miles) and more demanding with a 1 mile +9% grade and a number of other rolling hills. Both events draw riders who have participated for an extended period of time, as well as first timers. All are welcomed and I have seen no evidence of disrespect for anyone.

The long time participants engage in much more pre-ride conversation than those who participate less or are new, which isn't unusual. There is a good deal of pre-ride concentration by many of the riders as they prepare mentally for the ride, so a number of riders are "in their own world". For anyone to consider that a "snub" and I'm sure some do, is pretty silly. After the rides, all gather at the finish line and await times and talk. More experiences and stronger riders often share hints and ideas with other riders - especially if asked. Sometimes comments come without request - suggestions for a better position, equipment suggestions, etc. I suspect someone could take offense at such a suggestion and consider it an elitist comment, but I've never seen any comments made for any other purpose than helping someone to improve. In general, that's why someone would be running practice TT's, right?

Local cycling clubs and shop/group rides that I've participated in are a little less intense when it comes to ride objectives - i.e. not focused on besting performance every time out. However, some do. so if that isn't someone's cup of tea they shouldn't jump in such a group ride. Even though less intense, group rides are segmented by general fitness objectives. Just the nature of the beast - if someone rides at 15mph avg and jumps in a 19-20mph group, the situation isn't going to go very well. Not because group members want to be elitist, but because they have workout goals. In general riders of group rides acknowledge passing riders with head nods or other gesture. Gratuitous attaboys aren't shared routinely, but if someone digs a little deeper than they normally do a "nice pull" or "nice work" results. The riders in the groups are fairly closely matched by design, so it isn't too hard to tell when someone is giving it extra effort.

So as I said, Haven't witnessed the "elitism" that is so often posted in forums. IMO most of it is mis-perceptions and/or not understanding the dynamics of a particular ride group. Can't imagine runners being any more supportive, since my experience with cyclists/cycling groups has been nothing but supportive. That said, if someone needs to be acknowledged or is uncomfortable that another person has invested more $$ in their equipment, then they are going to have a less than ideal experience. ... not just in cycling, but in life.

Nice post. In a race-type atmosphere, I'm totally with you. I would never expect anyone to break their concentration. This would be the same in running races. However, in riding/running "normally", it is a different atmosphere.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Nice post. In a race-type atmosphere, I'm totally with you. I would never expect anyone to break their concentration. This would be the same in running races. However, in riding/running "normally", it is a different atmosphere.

... and how exactly do you know in which atmosphere someone is riding? The point is that you cannot unless you stop and interview the other cyclist. The objective point of view is that you do not know what another cyclist is thinking or doing in their ride. As such it's pointless to assume anything about them. It diminishes them, and it takes away from your ride.

We ride. Isn't that all that matters? Waving doesn't make anyone any more or any less of a cyclist, nor does that make them a better or worse person. In fact, waving or not waving says absolutely nothing. Why is it so important to some cyclists to assume so much about what some other cyclist is or isn't thinking? Is riding so boring that such assumptions are necessary for entertainment?

More importantly, while I love cycling, there is absolutely nothing objective that makes cycling's community any better than a community of pedestrians, of drivers, or of people anywhere. If we're going to get verklempt about cyclists not waving or allegedly being elitist, then we better make sure we do it about every other person in every other circle in which we navigate and every segment of society in which we participate. But, before going to any of those extremes, we better consider that the proclamation that someone is an elitist is in itself a judgement and a form of elitism. Oy vey.