Cyclists/elitism?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Since we're diggin' deep into crackerjack psychology box, I might as well take a handful...

People compete as long as they're competitive. If they feel they're not competitive against the competition, they won't compete for fear of failure. And it is also true that some people have never had much of a competitive streak, regardless of age.

Get a bunch of 80yoguys on road bikes and I guarantee they will test (compete against) each other. Put those same 80yos in with a group of 40yos and they won't be so keen to compete.
People don't cease to be playful/competitive as they age, it's only that their opportunities to play/compete amongst comparable competition/ability/skill become fewer and further between.

So you have your usual racer's training ride. The Cat5s will race to every landmark. The Cat1s and Cat2s will just ride tempo. Cat4s will chase the Cat5s. The Cat3s are a mixed bag. Some will chase and some will not. The difference: The upper level guys have nothing to gain by beating the lower level guys. The upper level guys know where they rank in "ability." The lower level guys are just the opposite.

Same on most group rides.

The second rate guys want to prove they have greater "ability." The first rate guys have no need to "compete."

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The high gear on the bicycle I ride on the roads is a 50/16. The low gear is 34/30. I don't need anyone to think I am elite

It appears I need to repeat for you, "Your perception (of the world and everything in it) is your reality (irrespective of its accuracy). I can never (not that it's worth my time or effort) deny that...
Furthermore, you are most entitled to your opinions...

As with anything people who are good at something are sometimes going to make it known. Since drafting does not apply in running, good runners will or should be plain gone from those who are not as good. A good cyclist can hop in a group and make it work for everyone while still getting a workout, but may find the need to stroke the ego a time or two by making their power known either through strong pulls or stomping people at town signs.

This time of year all of our club races are done so I have migrated towards local group rides, some of which are advertised as "fast pace". I personally play along and make it hard for others while still trying to get a workout in. I do this while saying little and letting my legs to the talking, but a time or two there are people who want to say that "I almost had you". I try to not be arrogant or an elitist, but at that point I feel that I somehow have to let them know that I am going 85-90% and am letting up in sprints or am going 100% and coming off of the front to go 110% in the sprints. Cycling is not the same as running, a faster cyclist can still get a workout in while "stringing everyone along", a faster runner will or should be just plain gone........

For me it is ALL ABOUT THE WORKOUT, whatever I need to do to complete the effort that I am trying for, I do. I will not go to a "fast pace group ride" and just sit in, it does nothing for me. If a Cat 2/1 hops in a group ride and just chills then they have no goals in mind but to enjoy their time on the bike, even for them sitting in a "fast group ride" is not a recovery ride. This is why unless it is a nice slow pace group ride, or one of our weekly club race, group rides don't really play into my training..

I must be doing something wrong, 'cuz I when I'm riding, I'm pretty much just care about my ride. I really don't listen to see if I can hear what other people's legs are saying, and I'm not trying to send messages with my cycling. I don't pretend to know why someone else is riding, what their motivation is, whether or not they've got an Oedipal complex, whether or not they need to try and dominate others while riding to feel any self-worth, whether they're aliens in human form, or whatever else goes on inside their heads, motivates them, or whatever. I don't need that to enjoy my ride, to ride fast, or to ride slow. The one rule I have is that I don't ride with people that act like jackasses on their bikes. It completely kills the riding buzz.

I was massively humbled on a ride last week, though, when pedaling through one of our desert mountain parks, an adult bobcat with two cubs crossed the road about 40 or so yards in front of me. The adult had brilliant white paws, and the last cub on the road turned to see me and my friend pedaling up the road. The cub turned to face us head on, kind of spread his legs wide, squared his shoulders and kind of went rigid, apparently trying to look big and mean, i.e. intimidating, dominating. It was very cool. It were humbling to be able to see that. There was so much more value there than in wondering about the motivations of other riders.

Anyone besides me see the irony in the above poster's testimony? Quite distinctly the post above exudes an air of 'the fact that I'm not thinking about why others are riding is clearly superior to your apparent waste of brain activity on thinking about other riders' motivations'.

The entire post smacks of the very elitism the OP was referring to when they exercised their personal perogative in starting this rhetorical thread.
Furthermore, the above poster even went so far as to suggest (in a passively aggressive manner) early on that the OP was wasting their time in even considering such a notion as to why some riders behave in the manner they do. Oh the irony...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

It appears I need to repeat for you, "Your perception (of the world and everything in it) is your reality (irrespective of its accuracy). I can never (not that it's worth my time or effort) deny that...
Furthermore, you are most entitled to your opinions...

It seems you might be one of those elitists.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bgoetz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Cycling is not the same as running, a faster cyclist can still get a workout in while "stringing everyone along", a faster runner will or should be just plain gone........

You seem to provide an example of elitist behavior. You seem to claim some knowledge of running, but draw a conclusion that is simply wrong. Typical elitist behavior.

You seem to be writing about training. When I was in college, a fellow I worked with ran everyday at lunch - 10 6 minute miles. A bit ahead of middle of the pack for a marathon runner. Certainly not elite. For the better part of a year 4 guys ran off of his shoulder on his lunch time run.

Those 4 guys were good enough to run in the Olympic qualifier (and they did), were 10-20 minutes faster in a marathon than him, and were featured runners at any marathon they entered. Most of the year just taking pace from a guy they could drop in a minute. I don't think 4 guys of that ability would waste an hour a day taking pace off of a slow runner if it was not a good workout.

I don't know if your understanding of bicycling is better or worse than your understanding of running, but you do show elitist behavior about running.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
It seems you might be one of those elitists.

Come on, man. Get your own material. LOL!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You seem to provide an example of elitist behavior. You seem to claim some knowledge of running, but draw a conclusion that is simply wrong. Typical elitist behavior.

You seem to be writing about training. When I was in college, a fellow I worked with ran everyday at lunch - 10 6 minute miles. A bit ahead of middle of the pack for a marathon runner. Certainly not elite. For the better part of a year 4 guys ran off of his shoulder on his lunch time run.

Those 4 guys were good enough to run in the Olympic qualifier (and they did), were 10-20 minutes faster in a marathon than him, and were featured runners at any marathon they entered. Most of the year just taking pace from a guy they could drop in a minute. I don't think 4 guys of that ability would waste an hour a day taking pace off of a slow runner if it was not a good workout.

I don't know if your understanding of bicycling is better or worse than your understanding of running, but you do show elitist behavior about running.

That is kind of funny because I don't run, so I am not sure how I am an elitist when it comes to running. My point is simple, you can sit on a wheel and put out 75% of the effort of the guy in front of you. While I don't know much or claim to know much about running I am pretty certain the same does not apply, which makes running much less of a group effort eliminating some ability to exhibit some of the elitist behavior that you may see in a group ride, which is the direction that this thread was heading.

With regards to training I am just stating what works for me on a bike, I would agree that if your "story" is real and not just another story then the 4 guys that were running likely saw some benefit in training in that fashion. If they were that much faster maybe the run was actually a recovery pace for them.

Having thought about it for a while it seems that there are people out there who can better relate to their bike than to fellow humans.
(I don't think it's exclusive to cycling or even to sports in general; try approaching someone sporting a Canon EOS 5D II with 28-70/2.8 lens on it!)

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by rclouviere [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I've been cycling now for about 5 years; after running for many years. I really enjoy cycling, but there doesn't seem to be the same attitude between cyclists and runners. Other runners seem much more supportive, friendly, etc. I know this is a pretty broad statement, and I have clearly seen many very friendly, supportive cyclists, but there are quite a few cyclists that seem to think of themselves as better than others. Is this just me? Does this have to do with spending lots of money on bikes/equipment?

Cycling does tend to have a disproportionate amount of [censored] for sure.

More often than not these guys are not the top riders in a category though. In my experience they're the "nearly rans" mostly.
The top guys tend to be supportive and helpful to their less accomplished participants.
Maybe they are so because they know their less accomplished cyclists are no threat?

While I think anyone who rides with a "12" cog is more elite than I am, there are other factors that lead to elitism or the perception of elitism.

Road bikes cost from almost nothing to several thousand dollars. It does not take much to regard overweight middle aged guys on $8000 as elitists. It also not hard to regard people on group rides as elitists if the group riders run other cyclists off the road or demand road rights they are not entitled to.

Clothing also has a wide range. Not hard to regard a guy with tennis shoes, cut-offs and T-shirt as inferior to the guys in slick Lycra.

But the big deal is races. You can go to any foot race and run with everyone who shows up. Cannot do that at most bike races. Have to have a license and even then you can only ride with some of the guys who show up. Cannot get much more elitist than that.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

While I think anyone who rides with a "12" cog is more elite than I am, there are other factors that lead to elitism or the perception of elitism.

Road bikes cost from almost nothing to several thousand dollars. It does not take much to regard overweight middle aged guys on $8000 as elitists. It also not hard to regard people on group rides as elitists if the group riders run other cyclists off the road or demand road rights they are not entitled to.

Clothing also has a wide range. Not hard to regard a guy with tennis shoes, cut-offs and T-shirt as inferior to the guys in slick Lycra.

But the big deal is races. You can go to any foot race and run with everyone who shows up. Cannot do that at most bike races. Have to have a license and even then you can only ride with some of the guys who show up. Cannot get much more elitist than that.

Regarding some as an elitist isn't the same as them being one, is it? After all, perceptions can be quite wrong.

Certainly, the requirement of a license to do certain races does not make the holders of those licenses elitists. A great number of racing organizations require licenses and for good reasons: to increase safety; to insure that participants understand the rules, are bound to them, and understand the consequences of violating said rules; for insurance purposes. You need a license to race motorcycles and cars, to skydive without supervision, and even to hunt and fish. Are all of the holders of those licenses elitists? Further, you need a library card in most public libraries to take library books out of said library. Does that make library card holders elitists?

It'd be really awesome for people to think beyond what their perceptions tell them. After all look how wonderful are and how much contentment has been given us by the perceptions that some have of gays, blacks, ____ political party, hispanics, college graduates, minimum wage workers, welfare recipients, people from the Middle East,........... Let's also remember the definition of an elitist. Here are some:
--"a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite"
--"The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources"
--"[FONT= Verdana]consciousness[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]of[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]or[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]pride[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]in[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]belonging[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]to[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]a[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]select[/FONT] [FONT= Verdana]or[/FONT] favored group"

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Clothing also has a wide range. Not hard to regard a guy with tennis shoes, cut-offs and T-shirt as inferior to the guys in slick Lycra.

Haha! That is so true! I remember riding in regular shorts and t-shirts being out on a ride. I would always wave at other riders, but very rarely would any of them wave back. Then when I started wearing lycra all those same riders all of a sudden started waving back at me. I came to the conclusion that, in Virginia Beach at least, you pretty much have to have lycra shorts and a jersey in order to be taken serious.

But I also know for a fact that not all cyclists have that elitist attitude. It really does depend on the person. I remember being on one large group ride and flatting mid way through. A man and his wife stopped to help me change the flat and almost every single rider who passed by asked if we needed any help or supplies. Then on a different ride only a few people even acknowledged I was even there.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

While I think anyone who rides with a "12" cog is more elite than I am

Well the explains it all then...

... I have an 11 cog on the back and it sees use more than once a year. Go me!

But really, I don't have it because it sounds cool to have 53x11 or 50x11 - I have it because there are times where 50x12 just isnt enough. It's not elitism - a gear is a gear and I don't want to have to pedal at 100+rpm on long rides that feature some slight down hill sections and a slight tailwind.

I think you'll find there are more than a few folk that ride expensive bikes because they get pleasure from the ride quality of the bike, the design and the quality of the equipment rather than the bragging rights.

If you want to compete in running races on the track you need a license. If you want to race cars you need a racing license to compete - and take courses to prove that you're safe to race. If your USA Cycling license says Cat4 rather than Cat5 then you've proved yourself to be able to ride close to at least some people without killing everyone during ~10 events. A license isn't a piece of card that's used for one upmanship.

Sadly, my 50 x 12 spins out on some descents around here, and on those descents I wish I had an 11 in back and a 52 or 53 up front. I hate coasting but love going fast. I guess I'm going to have to put an "elitist" decal on my bike. If I put that sticker on, am I still allowed to ride with people that might wear Camelbaks on the road or are newbies?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Sadly, my 50 x 12 spins out on some descents around here, and on those descents I wish I had an 11 in back and a 52 or 53 up front. I hate coasting but love going fast. I guess I'm going to have to put an "elitist" decal on my bike. If I put that sticker on, am I still allowed to ride with people that might wear Camelbaks on the road or are newbies?

I am happy to say that you not only are allowed to ride with them, you have to ride with them. How else are they to know you are an elitist if you are not with them so they can witness it first hand? It's kind of like the light in the refrigerator or the tree falling in the woods kind of thing. We lycra wearing elitist need to be in public view so the non-elitist know we exist.

I would sign off with Best Wishes, but I am above that [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Well the explains it all then...

... I have an 11 cog on the back and it sees use more than once a year. Go me!

But really, I don't have it because it sounds cool to have 53x11 or 50x11 - I have it because there are times where 50x12 just isnt enough. It's not elitism - a gear is a gear and I don't want to have to pedal at 100+rpm on long rides that feature some slight down hill sections and a slight tailwind.

I think you'll find there are more than a few folk that ride expensive bikes because they get pleasure from the ride quality of the bike, the design and the quality of the equipment rather than the bragging rights.

If you want to compete in running races on the track you need a license. If you want to race cars you need a racing license to compete - and take courses to prove that you're safe to race. If your USA Cycling license says Cat4 rather than Cat5 then you've proved yourself to be able to ride close to at least some people without killing everyone during ~10 events. A license isn't a piece of card that's used for one upmanship.

Not to pick on you. You have an 11 because you bicycle came with one. Not because you find it useful. I remember when the smallest cog was a 13. The "slight down hill sections and a slight tailwinds" were the same then. People were just as proud with their 13s as you are with your 11. You have an 11 because it came with the bike. It comes with the bike because the pros use them. You want to be associated with the pros.

And I don't think that one needs to not kill other people to upgrade. I know a fellow who was in a race where someone died - missed a turn and right over the cliff, and he later upgraded.

A lot of groups need licenses. That does not mean that groups that require a license are not elitists. It may mean that other groups are elitists.

Whether a bicyclist is an elitist is not my call, but many act/look like they are.

---

I notice that when I have my 11-23 and 39-53 on bike it attracts a whole different set of opinions than when I have my 16-30 and 34-50. I suppose those opinions might be elitist in nature.

I am a lone wolf and cycle by myself most of the time. Find it too hard to schedule group rides and I find those rides hard as many are at different fitness/speed levels. But what I have found is that many cyclists are very friendly. And an equal number are what I feel are "Bike Snobs". And there are bike snob shops. They definitely look at me weird and treat me differently because I ride a steely and don't get "kitted" out, etc. But I would agree that if people are this way in the cycling community, they are probably the same way in life. I hate it but I don't worry about it.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by doctorold [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
They definitely look at me weird and treat me differently because I ride a steely and don't get "kitted" out, etc.

That's because it's not a late 80's fillet brazed Moser steely. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]