Cyclist demographics?

Peter B said:

"Chris Eilbeck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you think Linux is difficult to use just get a Knoppix or Ubuntu
CD, put it in your CD and turn your machine on. You have nothing to
lose and lots to gain.

I'm game, best source please Chris?

http://www.knoppix.org/ or http://www.ubuntu.com/

Both run direct from a CD and won't do any damage to your machine.
Just pop the disk in the drive and go for it. I can mail you
both/either if you don't have a CD writer.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

Chris Eilbeck said:

I'm sorry but this "Linux doesn't work on laptops" is utter bollocks.
I've been running Linux on laptops since Pentium laptops came out and
sure, things like winmodems are a problem, but overall there are no
significant issues stopping you running Linux on a laptop. Graphics
cards just work, network cards just work, virtually everything will
have drivers and will be configured correctly by default.

As I've said to many people, get a copy of Ubuntu or Knoppix on a cd
and try it. The chances are it'll just work, you'll have all the
tools you have under Windows and you'll be able to just get on and use
it.

OK. I have a Toshiba laptop. I load the Knoppix (or any other Linux)
CD. I get a dark sludgy brown screen which has feint traces of icons
etc on it but is totally unreadable. How do I get it to work?

I also tried Knoppix on a Sony Vaio laptop. It studiously ignored the
802.11 card and there seemed to be no obvious way to get it to work.
Google said it was a known problem but didn't offer much in the way of
solutions. During playing around with it the system locked up several
times and I had to reboot. How do I get it to work?

I'm not trying to do anything fancy, just boot to a basic system and
play around but so far that has eluded me.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Tony Raven said:

I'm not trying to do anything fancy, just boot to a basic system and
play around but so far that has eluded me.

Email me the specs of what you have and I'll ask a few people I know
who own Toshes and Viaos.

Wireless networking can be tricky because a lot of people won't
release the programming specs of their cards but it can be done.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter B

(') said:

"Chris Eilbeck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you think Linux is difficult to use just get a Knoppix or Ubuntu
CD, put it in your CD and turn your machine on. You have nothing to
lose and lots to gain.

I'm game, best source please Chris?

<URL:http://www.linux-emporium.co.uk/products/standalone/#pid3982>

For the grand price of £2.00. Or download an iso image from one of these
servers
<URL:http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html>

and burn it to disk yourself.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.

in message <[email hidden]>, Chris Eilbeck

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

The only laptop I've ever used where it wasn't a simple matter of
stick the CD in and reboot was a Toshiba Libretto which had neither
CD not floppy drive, and needed to be boostrapped over the network,
which was mildly interesting.

I love my Libretto. It's the only laptop I've never had *any* trouble
with at all. I pulled the disk and stuck it in another laptop to do
the Linux install but other than that very minor hassle it's never had
cracked hinges, blown PSUs, batteries that don't take a charge, bust
display inverters, random hangs, random reboots etc. as I seem to get
with all my other laptops over the past 10 years or so. If only the
screen was usable in sunlight...

Mine now has a bad glitch in the right hand 20mm of the screen, which is
very sad - but it's had a hard life and has been a faithful companion
and tool for years. And when you're going into a potential customers to
demonstrate a major database application backended on Oracle, and they
say 'do you want a hand in with the server?', and you pull it out of
your jacket pocket.... well, it just cracks me up every time. People
just can't believe that something so small can be so powerful.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03

Simon Brooke said:

demonstrate a major database application backended on Oracle, and they
say 'do you want a hand in with the server?', and you pull it out of
your jacket pocket.... well, it just cracks me up every time. People
just can't believe that something so small can be so powerful.

Excellent!

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Chris Eilbeck said:

I'm sorry but this "Linux doesn't work on laptops" is utter bollocks.
I've been running Linux on laptops since Pentium laptops came out and
sure, things like winmodems are a problem, but overall there are no
significant issues stopping you running Linux on a laptop. Graphics
cards just work, network cards just work, virtually everything will
have drivers and will be configured correctly by default.

As I've said to many people, get a copy of Ubuntu or Knoppix on a cd
and try it. The chances are it'll just work, you'll have all the
tools you have under Windows and you'll be able to just get on and use
it.

OK. I have a Toshiba laptop. I load the Knoppix (or any other Linux)
CD. I get a dark sludgy brown screen which has feint traces of icons
etc on it but is totally unreadable. How do I get it to work?

I also tried Knoppix on a Sony Vaio laptop. It studiously ignored the
802.11 card and there seemed to be no obvious way to get it to work.

If that's the Intel 802.11 thing then you can't - it's proprietary and
Intel won't release either a driver or the specs so someone can write
one. There's nothing for it but to plug a PCMCIA 802.11 card in, which
is a bit of an annoyance.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

Simon Brooke said:

Mine now has a bad glitch in the right hand 20mm of the screen, which is
very sad - but it's had a hard life and has been a faithful companion
and tool for years. And when you're going into a potential customers to
demonstrate a major database application backended on Oracle, and they
say 'do you want a hand in with the server?', and you pull it out of
your jacket pocket.... well, it just cracks me up every time. People
just can't believe that something so small can be so powerful.

Seem to be a few available on ebay at not bad prices. I gather the
Libretto is coming back into the Toshiba lineup. I loved mine - so much
easier than lugging a large laptop around the world. Bought my first
Libretto 50 just after it had launched and ended up with a 110 as my
last Libretto, sadly no more with me. Thinking of getting one off ebay
for old times sake.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Simon Brooke said:

If that's the Intel 802.11 thing then you can't - it's proprietary and
Intel won't release either a driver or the specs so someone can write
one. There's nothing for it but to plug a PCMCIA 802.11 card in, which
is a bit of an annoyance.

No its a LAN Express one whoever they are. But dare I say we are back
to welding and machining, to make it do things Windoze does without
hesitation, if you have to buy a PCMCIA card because you operating
system won't work with the inbuilt 802.11.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Tony Raven said:

No its a LAN Express one whoever they are. But dare I say we are
back to welding and machining, to make it do things Windoze does
without hesitation, if you have to buy a PCMCIA card because you
operating system won't work with the inbuilt 802.11.

The LAN Express card is supported under Linux2.6. You just need a
more modern distribution.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

Tony Raven said:

Seem to be a few available on ebay at not bad prices. I gather the
Libretto is coming back into the Toshiba lineup. I loved mine - so
much easier than lugging a large laptop around the world. Bought my
first Libretto 50 just after it had launched and ended up with a 110
as my last Libretto, sadly no more with me. Thinking of getting one
off ebay for old times sake.

I'm really tempted by a Libretto U100. That'd be ideal for use on the
move if the screen is better in sunlight.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

If that's the Intel 802.11 thing then you can't - it's proprietary and
Intel won't release either a driver or the specs so someone can write
one. There's nothing for it but to plug a PCMCIA 802.11 card in, which
is a bit of an annoyance.

No its a LAN Express one whoever they are. But dare I say we are back
to welding and machining, to make it do things Windoze does without
hesitation, if you have to buy a PCMCIA card because you operating
system won't work with the inbuilt 802.11.

Windows won't work with the inbuilt 802.11 either - unless you have a
driver. Linux, out of the box, copes with about 95% of all PC hardware
out there. Microsoft, out of the box, copes with 10% or less. The
difference is, with Linux if the driver for your hardware isn't in the
box, it's either hard or practically impossible to get one, and with
windows the driver mostly comes with the hardware.

But the answer to this is extremely simple: read the hardware
compatibility list /before/ buying the hardware. You don't hear people
complaining that their SRAM mechs don't work with their Shimano
shifters, do you? You check that the components will work
together /before/ you buy them. Computing is just the same.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
;; Voltaire RIP Dr David Kelly 1945-2004

Chris Eilbeck said:

I'm really tempted by a Libretto U100. That'd be ideal for use on the
move if the screen is better in sunlight.

Bringing it back on topic I have a picture gleaned from the interweb of
a touring bike with dynamo powered Libretto mounted on the handlebars
running GPS mapping software. Of course you can now do that on your
mobile phone but in its day it was impressive if not slightly strange

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Chris Eilbeck said:

Tony Raven said:

No its a LAN Express one whoever they are. But dare I say we are
back to welding and machining, to make it do things Windoze does
without hesitation, if you have to buy a PCMCIA card because you
operating system won't work with the inbuilt 802.11.

The LAN Express card is supported under Linux2.6. You just need a
more modern distribution.

It was about 8 month to a year ago I tried so I'll look again when I
have a moment.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Simon Brooke said:

Windows won't work with the inbuilt 802.11 either - unless you have a
driver. Linux, out of the box, copes with about 95% of all PC hardware
out there. Microsoft, out of the box, copes with 10% or less. The
difference is, with Linux if the driver for your hardware isn't in the
box, it's either hard or practically impossible to get one, and with
windows the driver mostly comes with the hardware.

But the answer to this is extremely simple: read the hardware
compatibility list /before/ buying the hardware. You don't hear people
complaining that their SRAM mechs don't work with their Shimano
shifters, do you? You check that the components will work
together /before/ you buy them. Computing is just the same.

So we are back to tinkering, welding and machining again. I have a
laptop that comes with Windows, works with Windows. I want to switch it
to Linux but it doesn't work with Linux, doesn't have the drivers in
Linux, in one case doesn't have a readable screen to get started with in
Linux. I could go out and buy a PCMCIA 802.11 card to get round the
internal card not having a Linux driver (although it seems it might have
one now) but that would mean I don't have a slot for my Vodafone 3G card
to sit in (and I've no idea if that has a Linux driver). As I've said,
I am sure the Linuxistas here could get it working but it requires
gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to get. IME to say
Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box is misleading. YMMV.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:
: But the answer to this is extremely simple: read the hardware
: compatibility list /before/ buying the hardware.

The trouble with this is that most people don't want to do it (and
why should they?).

The other problem is laptops. Getting linux to work on a modern laptop
is a PITA. Once the laptop is a couple of years old, it's all much better.

This is why when I came to spend my own money to replace my Intel/Linux
laptop (which mostly all worked (*)) I bought a Mac PowerBook.

Now I have a UNIX laptop to that Just Works. Close the lid to suspend,
open to unsuspend. Sorted. It even runs Oracle 🙂

Arthur

(*) Mostly. Suspend to disk worked (after much patching of kernels etc). Wireless
worked with a PCMCIA card but since there wasn't a builtin one, that was fine.
The internal modem never worked. Suspend to RAM never worked. And I'm good
at getting these things to work.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote:
: gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to get. IME to say
: Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box is misleading. YMMV.

That's a fair summary. Works for a limited value of works 🙂

Arthur (typing this on a Fedora Core linux box)

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

Chris Eilbeck said:

Tony Raven said:

Mark McNeill said:

I read a few months ago the received wisdom that Linux on laptops
isn't straightforward, because (as you found) quite a few laptop
components hadn't had drivers written for them; but I heard recently
that the situation had improved.

The first bit is what I had heard but I haven't heard it had
improved. In our family we have four laptops and one desktop so an OS
that can't cope with a laptop is not a lot of use to us. YMMV

I'm sorry but this "Linux doesn't work on laptops" is utter bollocks.
I've been running Linux on laptops since Pentium laptops came out and
sure, things like winmodems are a problem, but overall there are no
significant issues stopping you running Linux on a laptop. Graphics
cards just work, network cards just work, virtually everything will
have drivers and will be configured correctly by default.

And wireless card drivers won't compile, and when they do work, they won't
work with the DNS server on your router.

IME.

I tried and I tried, but abandoned ship after a few months.

--
Ambrose

wafflycat said:

Alas some of us *have* to use Macrocr*p Windoze for the business
software, as the software houses providing the mortgage sourcing
software have repeatedly said that if we use any other system they
will refuse to support the software if there are any problems and
there's a sniff of any other OS...

Quite. Since I do most of my net-golfing and reading of newsfroups on the
Mut Mines' coin, I am obliged to post with what They give me.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Give the anarchist a cigarette.

Arthur Clune said:

Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote:
: gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to get. IME to say
: Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box is misleading. YMMV.

That's a fair summary. Works for a limited value of works 🙂

Arthur (typing this on a Fedora Core linux box)

Phew, I was beginning to think it was just me and was resigning myself
to the fact that I must be a computer numpty.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon