Cyclist demographics?

Ian Smith said:

But he's right, it _ALSO_ looks like a fisher-price toy, and I also
find it strangely insulting.

You can switch it to the Classic Windows look which is much better IMO

Quoted message said:

'Strangely' because the things it does makes it so patenmtly obvious
the manufacturer thinks I'm an imbecile who can't be trusted,

Unfortunately you have just suscinctly described the majority of
computer users in so far as operating systems are concerned.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Tony Raven said:

Nick Kew said:

Hmmm, here's a thought for your amusement:
- windoze is a halfords bike
- windoze+firewall+antivirus is a bike + helmet
- Linux/Unix is a decent quality bike - eg Dawes or Cannondale
- MacOS is a recumbent

ITYM Linux/Unix is a mixed bag of bits from which you can construct

I guess you haven't used them in the past 15 or 20 years, then?

--
Nick Kew

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Nick Kew said:

Hmmm, here's a thought for your amusement:
- windoze is a halfords bike
- windoze+firewall+antivirus is a bike + helmet
- Linux/Unix is a decent quality bike - eg Dawes or Cannondale
- MacOS is a recumbent

ITYM Linux/Unix is a mixed bag of bits from which you can construct a
quality bike if you know how, have the time and are prepared to do the
odd bit of welding and machining to make it all fit together ;-)

Choose a PC, any PC. Well, to be fair, it needs a Pentium class processor
and a reasonable amount of RAM... Stick a Knoppix CD in it. Set it to
boot from CD, reboot. Hey presto, a desktop computer your grandmother
could do useful work on. No configuration, no tweaking, no welding, no
machining... although installing to hard disk does make it run a lot
quicker.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]

Tony Raven said:

Nick Kew said:

Hmmm, here's a thought for your amusement:
- windoze is a halfords bike
- windoze+firewall+antivirus is a bike + helmet
- Linux/Unix is a decent quality bike - eg Dawes or Cannondale
- MacOS is a recumbent

ITYM Linux/Unix is a mixed bag of bits from which you can construct a
quality bike if you know how, have the time and are prepared to do the
odd bit of welding and machining to make it all fit together ;-)

Maybe in the past but Linux is way, way past the hairshirt stage.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Nick Kew said:

Hmmm, here's a thought for your amusement:
- windoze is a halfords bike
- windoze+firewall+antivirus is a bike + helmet
- Linux/Unix is a decent quality bike - eg Dawes or Cannondale
- MacOS is a recumbent

ITYM Linux/Unix is a mixed bag of bits from which you can construct a
quality bike if you know how, have the time and are prepared to do the
odd bit of welding and machining to make it all fit together ;-)

Choose a PC, any PC. Well, to be fair, it needs a Pentium class processor
and a reasonable amount of RAM... Stick a Knoppix CD in it. Set it to
boot from CD, reboot. Hey presto, a desktop computer your grandmother
could do useful work on. No configuration, no tweaking, no welding, no
machining... although installing to hard disk does make it run a lot
quicker.

Did some testing on this. A knoppix live cd in a IBM R52 lappy.
THe IBM ran faster on the knoppix cd than on its actual instal of
updated XP. Had three staff members play with it doing internet
browsing and opening applications and all had the same impression.

The base install was the standard Department of Eduction and Training
image for these machines but with all current XP patches. So it had
XP, Office 2003 and a few other applications.

I thought our results were interesting. They were not told they were
actually testing linuxx. When asked later all 3 staff members said they
would resist linux being installed as it was too hard to use.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ian Smith said:

But he's right, it _ALSO_ looks like a fisher-price toy, and I also
find it strangely insulting.

You can switch it to the Classic Windows look which is much better IMO

Quoted message said:

'Strangely' because the things it does makes it so patenmtly obvious
the manufacturer thinks I'm an imbecile who can't be trusted,

Unfortunately you have just suscinctly described the majority of
computer users in so far as operating systems are concerned.

I've been reading these posts re. windoze and would have to say that those
of you "in the business" or who have a keen interest are out of touch with
everyday PC usage.
Many "ordinary" people use PC's on a daily basis and have no interest in
them whatsoever, they're just another device they have to use at work and
occasionally at home. Much like they don't give a fig how their washing
machine or telly works (and when you hear of the amount of people who can't
use a video programmer...).
Some of you may think XP is insultingly simple but believe me to many others
it's anything but.
The level of technophobia may astound many of you.

--
Pete
http:[email hidden]/P

in message <[email hidden]>, dave

(') said:

I thought our results were interesting. They were not told they were
actually testing linuxx. When asked later all 3 staff members said
they would resist linux being installed as it was too hard to use.

Bizarre, isn't it? An image has built up of Linux as hard to use (which
may have been true ten years ago, but certainly isn't now) and people
believe that far more than they believe their own direct experience.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Error 1109: There is no message for this error

Simon Brooke said:

Choose a PC, any PC. Well, to be fair, it needs a Pentium class
processor and a reasonable amount of RAM... Stick a Knoppix CD in it.
Set it to boot from CD, reboot. Hey presto, a desktop computer your
grandmother could do useful work on. No configuration, no tweaking,
no welding, no machining... although installing to hard disk does
make it run a lot quicker.

I tried that on a Toshiba laptop last year and ended up with an
unreadable screen so could progress no further. Tried it on a Sony
laptop and it would not recognise the network card. Getting the card to
work seemed to involve rewriting bits of code as far as I could tell
from googling. I had intended to migrate to Linux and am not computer
unsavvy but I eventually gave up and stayed with Windoze. I am sure
Linux is a fine system if you can devote the time to it but Windoze has
the massive benefit that it seems to cope with most devices thrown at it.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Nick Kew said:

Tony Raven said:

Nick Kew said:

Hmmm, here's a thought for your amusement:
- windoze is a halfords bike
- windoze+firewall+antivirus is a bike + helmet
- Linux/Unix is a decent quality bike - eg Dawes or Cannondale
- MacOS is a recumbent

ITYM Linux/Unix is a mixed bag of bits from which you can construct

I guess you haven't used them in the past 15 or 20 years, then?

I tried to migrate last year after a successful foray into Mozilla to
replace IE/OE. Tried all the different versions, Lindows, Mandrake,
Knoppix and a few others I can't remember, and either got unreadable
screens or devices not working on the two laptops I tried it on. I
reluctantly gave up as I did not have the time to devote to work out how
to get a basic system working on the two laptops I tried. YMMV

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:45:39 +0100,

Tony Raven said:

Linux is a fine system if you can devote the time to it but Windoze has
the massive benefit that it seems to cope with most devices thrown at it.

http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/18/2033216

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

Peter B said:

Many "ordinary" people use PC's on a daily basis and have no interest in
them whatsoever, they're just another device they have to use at work and
occasionally at home.

And it's up to those of us who develop software to make that easy and
and safe for them to do.

Windows fails twice over: it is unintuitive (and a total loss when
something "doesn't work"😉. More important, it is seriously unsafe.
To the best of my knowledge, it *still* has the underlying bug described
in the MIME RFC (published in 1992 - long before the M$ software even
existed) that let in many of the email "viruses". Instead of being
a clean and simple rule, it's a complex maintenance nightmare to
avoid the nasties.

--
Nick Kew

Peter B said:

I've been reading these posts re. windoze and would have to say that those
of you "in the business" or who have a keen interest are out of touch with
everyday PC usage.
Many "ordinary" people use PC's on a daily basis and have no interest in
them whatsoever, they're just another device they have to use at work and
occasionally at home. Much like they don't give a fig how their washing
machine or telly works (and when you hear of the amount of people who can't
use a video programmer...).
Some of you may think XP is insultingly simple but believe me to many others
it's anything but.
The level of technophobia may astound many of you.

The problem with just treating a PC like a dumb appliance is that you
end up with a machine so chock full of viruses and spyware that you
end up not being able to use it without spending time running and
updating virus checkers and malware scanners, downloading updates etc.
If you don't do this the machine can crawl to a halt and you become a
very bad neighbour to share the network with.

I run Linux. I don't do any of this [censored] to keep the machine working,
it does it itself and is immune to the sort of nasties that infest MS
products. It's also free, runs on cheaper hardware and is easy to
use.

If you think Linux is difficult to use just get a Knoppix or Ubuntu
CD, put it in your CD and turn your machine on. You have nothing to
lose and lots to gain.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

Response to Tony Raven:

Quoted message said:

I tried that on a Toshiba laptop last year and ended up with an
unreadable screen so could progress no further. Tried it on a Sony
laptop and it would not recognise the network card. Getting the card to
work seemed to involve rewriting bits of code as far as I could tell
from googling.

I read a few months ago the received wisdom that Linux on laptops isn't
straightforward, because (as you found) quite a few laptop components
hadn't had drivers written for them; but I heard recently that the
situation had improved.

Others will know more than me, seeing as how what I know about Linux on
laptops is limited to what I've just said. ;-)

Suse 9.2 has so far coped with every component in my computer, except for
the USB IR port, and I think that's been improved in 9.3 - must update,
when I have the time. I'll stick with my ancient Billware for day-to-day
stuff, for the moment at least.

--
Mark, UK

"Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime
to examine the laws of heat."

Response to Tim Woodall:

Quoted message said:

http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/18/2033216

Snuk! Ta - promptly nicked^H^H copied under licence to various
friends...

--
Mark, UK

"There are some things only intellectuals are crazy enough to believe."

Mark McNeill said:

I read a few months ago the received wisdom that Linux on laptops isn't
straightforward, because (as you found) quite a few laptop components
hadn't had drivers written for them; but I heard recently that the
situation had improved.

The first bit is what I had heard but I haven't heard it had improved.
In our family we have four laptops and one desktop so an OS that can't
cope with a laptop is not a lot of use to us. YMMV

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Tony Raven said:

Mark McNeill said:

I read a few months ago the received wisdom that Linux on laptops
isn't straightforward, because (as you found) quite a few laptop
components hadn't had drivers written for them; but I heard recently
that the situation had improved.

The first bit is what I had heard but I haven't heard it had
improved. In our family we have four laptops and one desktop so an OS
that can't cope with a laptop is not a lot of use to us. YMMV

I'm sorry but this "Linux doesn't work on laptops" is utter bollocks.
I've been running Linux on laptops since Pentium laptops came out and
sure, things like winmodems are a problem, but overall there are no
significant issues stopping you running Linux on a laptop. Graphics
cards just work, network cards just work, virtually everything will
have drivers and will be configured correctly by default.

As I've said to many people, get a copy of Ubuntu or Knoppix on a cd
and try it. The chances are it'll just work, you'll have all the
tools you have under Windows and you'll be able to just get on and use
it.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark McNeill

(') said:

Response to Tony Raven:

Quoted message said:

I tried that on a Toshiba laptop last year and ended up with an
unreadable screen so could progress no further. Tried it on a Sony
laptop and it would not recognise the network card. Getting the card
to work seemed to involve rewriting bits of code as far as I could
tell from googling.

I read a few months ago the received wisdom that Linux on laptops isn't
straightforward, because (as you found) quite a few laptop components
hadn't had drivers written for them; but I heard recently that the
situation had improved.

The only laptop I've ever used where it wasn't a simple matter of stick
the CD in and reboot was a Toshiba Libretto which had neither CD not
floppy drive, and needed to be boostrapped over the network, which was
mildly interesting. I've been using Linux on laptops since 1996; no
problems, it just works. Some bleeding edge bits of hardware don't have
drivers yet, so it's worth scanning the hardware compatibility list - on
my current Fujitsu Siemens laptop I can't use the built-in 802.11g
interface so I have to use a PCMCIA one. Apart from that, everything
autodetected, absolutely zero problems getting it on.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

in message <[email hidden]>, Chris Eilbeck

(') said:

Tony Raven said:

Mark McNeill said:

I read a few months ago the received wisdom that Linux on laptops
isn't straightforward, because (as you found) quite a few laptop
components hadn't had drivers written for them; but I heard recently
that the situation had improved.

The first bit is what I had heard but I haven't heard it had
improved. In our family we have four laptops and one desktop so an OS
that can't cope with a laptop is not a lot of use to us. YMMV

I'm sorry but this "Linux doesn't work on laptops" is utter bollocks.
I've been running Linux on laptops since Pentium laptops came out and
sure, things like winmodems are a problem, but overall there are no
significant issues stopping you running Linux on a laptop.

I'm about to throw out an Escom (remember them?) 486/33 laptop with 32Mb
of RAM. It's run Linux since the day it was bought, in 1996. It still
works fine except that the screen hinge is broken.

Quoted message said:

Graphics
cards just work, network cards just work, virtually everything will
have drivers and will be configured correctly by default.

What he says. With very proprietary or very bleeding edge stuff you may
have problems, anything else is just stick it in and run.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for the welding torch.

Simon Brooke said:

The only laptop I've ever used where it wasn't a simple matter of
stick the CD in and reboot was a Toshiba Libretto which had neither
CD not floppy drive, and needed to be boostrapped over the network,
which was mildly interesting.

I love my Libretto. It's the only laptop I've never had *any* trouble
with at all. I pulled the disk and stuck it in another laptop to do
the Linux install but other than that very minor hassle it's never had
cracked hinges, blown PSUs, batteries that don't take a charge, bust
display inverters, random hangs, random reboots etc. as I seem to get
with all my other laptops over the past 10 years or so. If only the
screen was usable in sunlight...

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

"Chris Eilbeck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you think Linux is difficult to use just get a Knoppix or Ubuntu
CD, put it in your CD and turn your machine on. You have nothing to
lose and lots to gain.

I'm game, best source please Chris?

(Inadvertently I've highlighted the problem, ignorance caused or effected by
the dominance of winders. Second thoughts I ought to be able to find a
source myself thanks, lazy b*gger :-)
--
Pete
http:[email hidden]/P