Cycling and big gears

Miles Aere3? said:

It is generally considered good practice to spin at high cadence
with small gears. Are big ratios that bad? I tried today, and I
was forced to maintain high cadence; it was less comfortable
pedaling slowly with big gears, I think. (On the other hand, if I
use small gears, I often go easy if I am not mindful, and the
exercise is less than effective.) My legs are kind of stiff after
that. Is this something I will get used to eventually? Or am I
asking for injuries?

I don't know how old you are but if young and fit, you should ride the
way you feel most comfortable. Bicycling is no religious ritual and
unless you are training under the tutelage of a racing coach who
prescribes a training regimen, enjoy your bicycling.

Quoted message said:

In retrospect, when I started rowing, my arms would get stiff after
a few minutes. I kept trying and I was used to the lactic acid (?).
My arms do not feel tired and stiff since. I am tempted to do this
in cycling.

This isn't about stiffness but rather knee and hip joint injury for
those who have not ridden a bicycle until after 30 or so. The deepest
normal loaded knee bends done by average people is climbing stairs
(one at a time) that have about a 6" rise. A bicycle has close to a
14 inch rise and thereby easily causes knee problems for many riders.

Rowing has deeper knee bends than bicycling so act accordingly.

Those of us who have ridden bicycles since early youth generally don't
have any problem with that, but that is not what the bicycling
population is made of. Therefore you hear all sorts of admonishments
about pressing hard on the pedals.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Miles said:

It is generally considered good practice to spin at high cadence
with small gears. Are big ratios that bad? I tried today, and
I was forced to maintain high cadence; it was less comfortable
pedaling slowly with big gears, I think. (On the other hand, if
I use small gears, I often go easy if I am not mindful, and the
exercise is less than effective.)

IMHO the way to load yourself correctly is to aim for a certain heart
rate region, and use whatever gear lets you maintain it comfortably.
If your gear is too high your legs will give out quickly, and if it's too
low you simply won't be able to work hard enough.

I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

Michael Warner said:

I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
(but rest when you're tired).
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Terry Morse said:

Michael Warner said:

I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
(but rest when you're tired).

The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90% of
max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that level. Somedays
the best I can do is keep the cadence high.

I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally push
myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that ability eludes
me. It's not so much that any of the systems is 'tired'...it might be
partly mental fatigue, or something. I do tend to do better riding with a
partner.

-B

Badger who? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
(but rest when you're tired).

Quoted message said:

The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90%
of max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that
level. Some days the best I can do is keep the cadence high.

Quoted message said:

I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally
push myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that
ability eludes me. It's not so much that any of the systems is
'tired'... it might be partly mental fatigue, or something. I do
tend to do better riding with a partner.

You make bicycling sound so tedious and arduous. What's with all
this suffering? How about bicycling because it is fun, it liberates,
and takes us to places we wouldn't see otherwise. If it's sweat and
drudgery you want, go to a fitness club and pedal a dyno-trainer. You
won't get any merit badges here for your travails.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Badger who? said:

Quoted message said:

> I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
(but rest when you're tired).

Quoted message said:

The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90%
of max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that
level. Some days the best I can do is keep the cadence high.

Quoted message said:

I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally
push myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that
ability eludes me. It's not so much that any of the systems is
'tired'... it might be partly mental fatigue, or something. I do
tend to do better riding with a partner.

You make bicycling sound so tedious and arduous. What's with all
this suffering? How about bicycling because it is fun, it liberates,
and takes us to places we wouldn't see otherwise. If it's sweat and
drudgery you want, go to a fitness club and pedal a dyno-trainer. You
won't get any merit badges here for your travails.

Damn, that's twice in one morning I agree with JB! Is there a total eclipse
in the works, or something?!?

Free-form shifter here,
--
BS (no, really)

[email hidden] wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This isn't about stiffness but rather knee and hip joint injury for

those who have not ridden a bicycle until after 30 or so. The deepest
normal loaded knee bends done by average people is climbing stairs
(one at a time) that have about a 6" rise. A bicycle has close to a
14 inch rise and thereby easily causes knee problems for many riders.

Rowing has deeper knee bends than bicycling so act accordingly.

Those of us who have ridden bicycles since early youth generally don't
have any problem with that, but that is not what the bicycling
population is made of. Therefore you hear all sorts of admonishments
about pressing hard on the pedals.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

There is also the issue of efficiency. Many of us seem to be just more
efficient in a lower gear/higher cadence mode. I, for one, can do
much longer, faster rides when I discipline myself to stay in a low
gear and spin at a high cadence.

Gary Jill S? said:

Quoted message said:

This isn't about stiffness but rather knee and hip joint injury for
those who have not ridden a bicycle until after 30 or so. The
deepest normal loaded knee bends done by average people is climbing
stairs (one at a time) that have about a 6" rise. A bicycle has
close to a 14 inch rise and thereby easily causes knee problems for
many riders.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rowing has deeper knee bends than bicycling so act accordingly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those of us who have ridden bicycles since early youth generally
don't have any problem with that, but that is not what the
bicycling population is made of. Therefore you hear all sorts of
admonishments about pressing hard on the pedals.

Quoted message said:

There is also the issue of efficiency. Many of us seem to be just
more efficient in a lower gear/higher cadence mode. I, for one, can
do much longer, faster rides when I discipline myself to stay in a
low gear and spin at a high cadence.

Make that "theoretical efficiency" because efficiency falls naturally
out for the rider who isn't making comfortable progress. I don't
believe your assessment is supported by the facts. Consider the large
part of the world (diminishing) where bicycles are the main mode of
transport. You won't find people spinning at above 60rpm. You can
watch long distance tourists, as I often meet on our CA coast route #1
who have had thousands of miles to zero in on an ideal cadence. They
don't spin, especially if they are experienced tourists.

As I see it, spinning is a cult among people who want to emulate
riders who can TT (25 miles in one hour) and by association, look like
them to the untrained observer. It's like the motorcyclists who shove
their butt from side to side in curves to appear like racers who drag
elbows and kneed on the road. Porsche drivers often do likewise
driving everywhere in town at 5000+ RPM to appear like the racers.

Cut it out and ride bike!

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

:
: Make that "theoretical efficiency" because efficiency falls naturally
: out for the rider who isn't making comfortable progress. I don't
: believe your assessment is supported by the facts. Consider the large
: part of the world (diminishing) where bicycles are the main mode of
: transport. You won't find people spinning at above 60rpm. You can
: watch long distance tourists, as I often meet on our CA coast route #1
: who have had thousands of miles to zero in on an ideal cadence. They
: don't spin, especially if they are experienced tourists.
:
: As I see it, spinning is a cult among people who want to emulate
: riders who can TT (25 miles in one hour) and by association, look like
: them to the untrained observer. It's like the motorcyclists who shove
: their butt from side to side in curves to appear like racers who drag
: elbows and kneed on the road. Porsche drivers often do likewise
: driving everywhere in town at 5000+ RPM to appear like the racers.
:
: Cut it out and ride bike!
:
: Jobst Brandt

This post certainly makes me feel better. I seem to cruise along just fine
at about 74 rpm and some of the other club riders are always after me to
"get it up to 90 rpm or above" to be efficient. But, that 74 rpm seems to be
a "groove" that I just fall in to and the 90 rpm is something I have to work
at constantly.

Pat in TX

According to my experience, maintaining a high heart rate while cycling
is difficult. The bottleneck seems to be the legs, not the heart. Put
it another way, the heart could easily wear down the legs.

Miles

Thank you. That's sound advice. I'll proceed cautiously.

Miles

gds said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Those of us who have ridden bicycles since early youth generally don't
have any problem with that, but that is not what the bicycling
population is made of. Therefore you hear all sorts of admonishments
about pressing hard on the pedals.

Quoted message said:

There is also the issue of efficiency. Many of us seem to be just more
efficient in a lower gear/higher cadence mode. I, for one, can do
much longer, faster rides when I discipline myself to stay in a low
gear and spin at a high cadence.

I started riding with a power meter about six months ago so I could test
this hypothesis (and others) for myself.

As for efficiency, on a steady-state climb for a given heartrate I could
observe no significant difference in power delivered to the driving wheel
whether I was pedaling in a high gear or in a low gear.

I do find there is a difference in muscle and tendon fatigue depending on
what kind of cadence I keep. High cadence seems to be easier on the knees
but harder on the ankles, low cadence vice-versa. I find that as I am in
better shape, riding more, etc., and riding for enjoyment rather than
racing, I tend toward lower cadences.

There could also be an age effect, too. i.e. I don't see many older
cyclists riding with high cadence. (where low cadence is <70 rpm, high
cadence is >80 rpm)

--
Bill Bushnell

B i l l S o r n s o n said:

Quoted message said:

Badger who? said:

>> I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

Quoted message said:

> Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
> stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
> (but rest when you're tired).

Quoted message said:

The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90%
of max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that
level. Some days the best I can do is keep the cadence high.

Quoted message said:

I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally
push myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that
ability eludes me. It's not so much that any of the systems is
'tired'... it might be partly mental fatigue, or something. I do
tend to do better riding with a partner.

You make bicycling sound so tedious and arduous. What's with all
this suffering? How about bicycling because it is fun, it liberates,
and takes us to places we wouldn't see otherwise. If it's sweat and
drudgery you want, go to a fitness club and pedal a dyno-trainer. You
won't get any merit badges here for your travails.

Damn, that's twice in one morning I agree with JB! Is there a total eclipse
in the works, or something?!?

Free-form shifter here,

That's OK, he always gets cranky and tries to put down the newbies when he
cuts himself shaving his legs.

-B
Me? I just put in two fun hours cycling in the rain this am.

Badger said:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:56:12 -0800, Terry Morse <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Michael Warner said:

I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.

Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
(but rest when you're tired).

The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90% of
max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that level.
Somedays
the best I can do is keep the cadence high.

Now that I can agree with. There are some days that just being on the
bike and rolling along at 5 or 10 MPH is enough since even that beats
pushing the buttons on a remote control for the television.

Quoted message said:

I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally push
myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that ability eludes
me. It's not so much that any of the systems is 'tired'...it might be
partly mental fatigue, or something. I do tend to do better riding with a
partner.

-B

With me it's mostly mental, like do I want to get all sweaty and make a
shower mandatory, or just cruise around a bit. During the cold season,
now, I have to layer up and down, making use of my back pack to hold
the clothing and gloves (plus head cap for ears). In the summer it is
easy since you can count on working up a sweat either way, but cold
just bends the rules.

--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka

Pat said:

: Cut it out and ride bike!
:
: Jobst Brandt

This post certainly makes me feel better. I seem to cruise along just
fine
at about 74 rpm and some of the other club riders are always after me to
"get it up to 90 rpm or above" to be efficient. But, that 74 rpm seems
to be
a "groove" that I just fall in to and the 90 rpm is something I have to
work
at constantly.

Pat in TX

80 is it for me, doable for many hours at that speed, just comes natural.
85 when I want to get somewhere a little faster, over 100 when I am
actually pushing it to try to draft a bus or truck. Not sustainable but
sometimes fun to try.

--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka

Miles said:

According to my experience, maintaining a high heart rate while cycling
is difficult. The bottleneck seems to be the legs, not the heart. Put
it another way, the heart could easily wear down the legs.

Miles

Ditto for me. My legs always get sore before I get to my max heart rate,
and at that point I am still not breathing hard. I max at about 180,
which is over the top for 56, but I can only ride at a continous 150
to 160. Even at that rate I still have enough spare lung capacity to
hold my breath for about 20 seconds or so to get through a cloud of
dust, smoke, or whatever caused by one of the local farmers. This works
at sea level (+50) where I ride, might not be able to do that at 5,000'.

--
Bill (not always politically correct) Baka

[email hidden] wrote:
|| Badger who? writes:
||
||||| I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.
||
|||| Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
|||| stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
|||| (but rest when you're tired).
||
||| The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90%
||| of max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that
||| level. Some days the best I can do is keep the cadence high.
||
||| I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally
||| push myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that
||| ability eludes me. It's not so much that any of the systems is
||| 'tired'... it might be partly mental fatigue, or something. I do
||| tend to do better riding with a partner.
||
|| You make bicycling sound so tedious and arduous. What's with all
|| this suffering?

You don't understand. What may sound tedious and arduous to you, when
written about here, is *part* of what makes it fun to the poster.

How about bicycling because it is fun, it liberates,
|| and takes us to places we wouldn't see otherwise. If it's sweat and
|| drudgery you want, go to a fitness club and pedal a dyno-trainer.
|| You won't get any merit badges here for your travails.

Yes, you obviously have lost something along the way.

||
|| Jobst Brandt
|| [email hidden]

"Miles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to my experience, maintaining a high heart rate while cycling
is difficult. The bottleneck seems to be the legs, not the heart. Put
it another way, the heart could easily wear down the legs.

That's not my experience at all. For me, climbing at max rate or time
trialing is a matter of going at a cardio-vascular limit. I may be wrong,
but I think I have the more common experience, that is: intense cycling is
c-v limited.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:25:20 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
|| Badger who? writes:
||
||||| I try to ride at 80-90% of my maximum.
||
|||| Not all the time, I hope. Unless you're not concerned about getting
|||| stronger, in which case feel free to ride whatever pace you want
|||| (but rest when you're tired).
||
||| The interesting thing is that even if I'm in shape to ride at 80-90%
||| of max, it's not always easy to -get yourself- to ride at that
||| level. Some days the best I can do is keep the cadence high.
||
||| I have to be in better than average condition to be able to mentally
||| push myself, and some days even though I -want- to push it that
||| ability eludes me. It's not so much that any of the systems is
||| 'tired'... it might be partly mental fatigue, or something. I do
||| tend to do better riding with a partner.
||
|| You make bicycling sound so tedious and arduous. What's with all
|| this suffering?

You don't understand. What may sound tedious and arduous to you, when
written about here, is *part* of what makes it fun to the poster.

What's 'fun' to me is tinkering with my training. After thinking about it,
I may need to cut by the leg work in the gym (squats, LE, deads) to twice a
week - they may be pre-fatiguing my legs to a larger degree than I
realized.

Quoted message said:

|| How about bicycling because it is fun, it liberates,
|| and takes us to places we wouldn't see otherwise. If it's sweat and
|| drudgery you want, go to a fitness club and pedal a dyno-trainer.
|| You won't get any merit badges here for your travails.

Yes, you obviously have lost something along the way.

I doubt if he would be able to keep up with my training regime, which
includes three to four times a week heavy squatting with over 315lbs, and
LE that includes the whole stack for a dozen sets, and more.

-B

Quoted message said:

||
|| Jobst Brandt
|| [email hidden]