Cycle Shoes

Just zis Guy said:

That sounds wrong. Have you tried oiling the pedals and putting a small
amount of wax or grease on the cleats?

And are you sure the tension really is at the low end? With the tension
backed off I find the cleats release so easily as to make riding a
challenge.

Yes, they're definitely at the low end, cos if I crank them up to the
other end, they're bloody hard to get in, and impossible to get out of
without spending several minutes trying.

No, I've not oiled or greased anything, I wasn't aware this was
something good to do.

--

Velvet

Michael MacClancy said:

Quoted message said:

What position have you got the pedals in when you try to release? And why
do you want to do both at the same time?

When I started I got a sore ankle the first day. Since then no problem. I
do lubricate my (Look) pedals regularly.

It's been a while since they've been on, but if I remember right I've
tried at about 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock with the pedals stationary and
neither worked. I have to say I'm slightly perturbed by the thought
that they might unclip reliably in only one or two places in the pedal
stroke?!

I don't necessarily want to do both at the same time, but I want them
both unclipped well before I stop. And thus if I stop suddenly, yes I
will require both to unclip at the same time. Clipping back in is easy
enough, but I'm not all that happy that I can manage to reliably set
down my left foot (the only one that *works* to set down when stopping,
for me) every single time, and have had one incident with very loose
toestraps where the bike decided to go the other way and I suddenly
needed to put my *right* foot down. Very unpleasant, I spent the rest
of the ride a bag of nerves from that, and stopping wasn't confident
again for quite a while after that.

--

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill is better as you
can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal induced shimmy, just roll along
and get used to moving with one hand on the bars only. Are there really
no bits of road (or playground, or field, or carpark) that don't fit the
bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if you're cycling 50 milers
that gives you a 20 mile radius to find somewhere okay).

Yep, I can't think of anywhere around here that's flat (it's all hills
and valleys, the car parks are generally 24/7 places, and after dark
contain a different hazard - that of the boy racer), what's flat tends
to be busy. I cycle miles like that on mostly empty country roads,
which don't exist near me, and involve dragging the bike through the
centre of london on trains, currently. I really dislike cycling on the
roads near me, they're full of car drivers who rarely see cyclists, and
I'm not the sort of cyclist they should be learning how to behave around on.

I'm making progress slowly on signalling, but it is slow. I used to be
able to do it so I'll manage it again, but this bike is a lot different
in position/handling which is probably why it's taking longer. It's
much twitchier, I have more weight on the bars from the position, etc.

I'm starting to think this thread has rambled on rather now ;-) I'll
get there in the end, and one day I'll get those clipless things on too.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What position have you got the pedals in when you try to release? And why
do you want to do both at the same time?

When I started I got a sore ankle the first day. Since then no problem. I
do lubricate my (Look) pedals regularly.

It's been a while since they've been on, but if I remember right I've
tried at about 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock with the pedals stationary and
neither worked. I have to say I'm slightly perturbed by the thought
that they might unclip reliably in only one or two places in the pedal
stroke?!

I don't necessarily want to do both at the same time, but I want them
both unclipped well before I stop. And thus if I stop suddenly, yes I
will require both to unclip at the same time.

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping, usually the less
dominant leg. You're causing yourself problems if you're trying to do both
at the same time. I'm sure I've read that it's best to have the foot you
want to release at the bottom of the stroke but I find it's easier to have
it at the top.

Perhaps you shouldn't be bothering with clipless at the moment. You seem
to have enough problems with other, much more fundamental, skills. For
instance, I think you really do need to learn to put down just one foot
(and always the same foot) whenever you stop. I simply can't remember when
I have ever put down the 'other' foot - in 30 years or more of cycling on
bikes with and without clipless pedals.
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his
friends." -Oscar Wilde
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Velvet said:

Peter Clinch said:

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill is better as you
can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal induced shimmy, just roll along
and get used to moving with one hand on the bars only. Are there really
no bits of road (or playground, or field, or carpark) that don't fit the
bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if you're cycling 50 milers
that gives you a 20 mile radius to find somewhere okay).

Yep, I can't think of anywhere around here that's flat (it's all hills
and valleys, the car parks are generally 24/7 places, and after dark
contain a different hazard - that of the boy racer), w

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone Valley Road in
Caterham is flat for about a mile or so and not busy. Why don't you take
your bike there?
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness
in others." -Samuel Johnson
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping, usually the less
dominant leg.

I undo the one I like to put down, which is left by default. I've been
trying to get more ambidextrous and it's actually quite odd putting the
other foot down, pedalling off with the one that's usually down and so on.
On a bike where I need to come off the saddle, unclip a little in
advance and step down onto the road with the still-clipped-in foot at 6
o'clock where it's a completely stable platform to rest on as you step
the other down and come forward from the saddle. Putting both feet down
just makes life more difficult AFAICT, certainly when it comes to
setting off again.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping, usually the
less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable habit will always put my
right foot down. I mormally put my right hand down as the camber of the
road makes it easier, but will use the left if there's railings or a handy
kerb. When taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll use either
foot.

I must be a freak.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Peter Clinch said:

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill is better as you

Quoted message said:

can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal induced shimmy, just roll along
and get used to moving with one hand on the bars only. Are there really
no bits of road (or playground, or field, or carpark) that don't fit the
bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if you're cycling 50 milers
that gives you a 20 mile radius to find somewhere okay).

Yep, I can't think of anywhere around here that's flat (it's all hills
and valleys, the car parks are generally 24/7 places, and after dark
contain a different hazard - that of the boy racer), w

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone Valley Road in
Caterham is flat for about a mile or so and not busy. Why don't you take
your bike there?

Because for a start there are punishing hills between me and it, unless
I cycle along the A22, which means tangling with lots of traffic on a
narrow road, the bulk of which persists in exceeding the speed limits
and passing far too close.

It is a good idea though to practise like you're saying, I just seem to
get into the mindset of wanting to keep the speed up when out on roads
with (even occcasional) traffic, and I'm generally not just pootling
along (my bike makes me want to cycle faster and faster). I can scratch
my nose briefly with my right hand, but not the left (the left always
was more of a problem). Only while coasting, and with the top tube
gripped between knees. And whilst going in roughly a straight line.
Over non-[censored] tarmac. If I'm actually in the situation where signalling
would be good, I'm already more tense simply due to the fact there's a
turn I'm going to have to make, might have to stop, what's the traffic
doing around me, is there a gap, how close am I to the junction, where
do I need to be on the road, where's the traffic now, am I in the right
gear, am I going to need the brakes...

With that lot rattling through my head the LAST thing I want to do is
take my hands off the bars and stick my arm out (or scratch my nose!),
thus losing 50% of my brake/gear control, removing the ability to pedal
and thus gain speed, not to mention losing the ability to steer - all of
which I count as rather necessary things to be able to do whilst
attempting to negotiate something along with other traffic.

I'm happy with the progress I'm making, given how often I ride the bike
(not often but normally long stints when I do). I know it takes
practice, and when I feel comfortable doing it then I will take a hand
off the bars for a moment. I won't be rushed though - I stay more
relaxed if I do it while cycling, rather than specifically practising,
which leads to being tense and all the problems that brings. Things
work if I'm relaxed on the bike, swooping turns, higher speeds, leaning
in corners... if I'm tense it all goes to pot and I'm perched on the
bike, feeling it wiggling underneath me, unsure of making the next
corner or how much road I'll need to get round it (I tend to run wide
sometimes).

I often think if you've never been a nervous cyclist, or left those days
behind many years ago, you forget just how much of an impact it makes to
the rideability of a bike, and how much a small hiccup can make to your
confidence. I'm still pulling myself out of that stage, but I can look
back on when I first got this strange, alien, bike, and see I've
improved lots.

--

Velvet

Michael MacClancy said:

Perhaps you shouldn't be bothering with clipless at the moment. You seem
to have enough problems with other, much more fundamental, skills. For
instance, I think you really do need to learn to put down just one foot
(and always the same foot) whenever you stop. I simply can't remember when
I have ever put down the 'other' foot - in 30 years or more of cycling on
bikes with and without clipless pedals.

Indeed, and I'm quite happy not bothering with clipless for the moment
:-) I think it was others who suggested I *should*, certainly not I - I
then went on to explain *why* that was the case :-) I get into bad
problems if I put down the *wrong* foot when stopping, putting down my
left is the foot of choice, and normally works fine, unless I stop
suddenly (emergency stop, or an aborted start) in which case normally it
ends up with *both* since I have no time to control or determine which
way the bike and I will lean toward. Stopping still requires some
degree of thought to examine the camber/edge of road and determine where
to actually aim to stop. Not *quite* instinctive yet, but a whole load
better than it used to be!

Road camber catches me out sometimes though with the left, bike ends up
being on much higher ground that my foot, which leads to much hopping
and attempts to not fall over sideways!

--

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping, usually the less
dominant leg.

I undo the one I like to put down, which is left by default. I've been
trying to get more ambidextrous and it's actually quite odd putting the
other foot down, pedalling off with the one that's usually down and so on.
On a bike where I need to come off the saddle, unclip a little in
advance and step down onto the road with the still-clipped-in foot at 6
o'clock where it's a completely stable platform to rest on as you step
the other down and come forward from the saddle. Putting both feet down
just makes life more difficult AFAICT, certainly when it comes to
setting off again.

Pete.

Er, yes, sorry, perhaps you misunderstood :-) I only put one down (the
left). However, I want the right free of any restrictions, so that *if*
the worst happens (as it has) and I actually misjudged something and
need to put the right down to prevent falling sideways *that* way, I can
do so without having to disengage it from anything.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone Valley Road in
Caterham is flat for about a mile or so and not busy. Why don't you take
your bike there?

Because for a start there are punishing hills between me and it, unless
I cycle along the A22, which means tangling with lots of traffic on a
narrow road, the bulk of which persists in exceeding the speed limits
and passing far too close.

I actually meant that you should take the bike in the car (or on the
train?)
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone Valley Road in
Caterham is flat for about a mile or so and not busy. Why don't you take
your bike there?

Because for a start there are punishing hills between me and it, unless
I cycle along the A22, which means tangling with lots of traffic on a
narrow road, the bulk of which persists in exceeding the speed limits
and passing far too close.

I actually meant that you should take the bike in the car (or on the
train?)

Oh! No, I have no car at the moment, train - that might work, yes, but
seems an expensive way to do it (I have no car because I also have no
job, though hopefully both of those will be changing state in the next
couple of weeks, at which point of course, I will then have no time LOL)

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Er, yes, sorry, perhaps you misunderstood :-) I only put one down (the
left). However, I want the right free of any restrictions, so that *if*
the worst happens (as it has) and I actually misjudged something and
need to put the right down to prevent falling sideways *that* way, I can
do so without having to disengage it from anything.

I don't think he misunderstood. I think you need to find a flat road or
carpark and practice stopping and starting, concentrating on only putting
down your left foot, until you persuade yourself that it's never necessary
to put down your right one. You will learn to control the bike so that you
only ever need to put down the left foot.
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Velvet said:

Oh! No, I have no car at the moment, train - that might work, yes, but
seems an expensive way to do it (I have no car because I also have no
job, though hopefully both of those will be changing state in the next
couple of weeks, at which point of course, I will then have no time LOL)

I saw that LOL but did think, before seeing this post, that you do seem to
be building your own barriers to progress.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Er, yes, sorry, perhaps you misunderstood :-) I only put one down (the
left). However, I want the right free of any restrictions, so that *if*
the worst happens (as it has) and I actually misjudged something and
need to put the right down to prevent falling sideways *that* way, I can
do so without having to disengage it from anything.

I don't think he misunderstood. I think you need to find a flat road or
carpark and practice stopping and starting, concentrating on only putting
down your left foot, until you persuade yourself that it's never necessary
to put down your right one. You will learn to control the bike so that you
only ever need to put down the left foot.

I'm happy that it doesn't often go wrong - unless I have to do a very
sharp stop, or as I said, abort a start - but because of those two
instances, I would not be happy initially at only unclipping one side.

I don't put my right foot down when I stop at all, unless something has
Gone Wrong - but that doesn't mean I don't want to retain the ability
to, should I deem it necessary.

Clipping back in that one side would only take a moment, so it shouldn't
be a big problem that I want to do it that way. It would make me feel
safer, reduce the stress levels, and thus make the whole exercise
easier, when I come to try clipless - which means the greatest chance of
succeeding with them without scaring myself silly ;-)

--

Velvet

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Oh! No, I have no car at the moment, train - that might work, yes, but
seems an expensive way to do it (I have no car because I also have no
job, though hopefully both of those will be changing state in the next
couple of weeks, at which point of course, I will then have no time LOL)

I saw that LOL but did think, before seeing this post, that you do seem to
be building your own barriers to progress.

Not really, but I know how badly I react to being pushed along to do
things too fast - it all leads to tense frustrated failure. Far better
for me to do it at my own steady pace (which a lot of people regard as
similar to a snail, I might add!)

I've found the key to making progress riding this bike is to be relaxed
about it all - something I think our lady in paris with behemoth is
battling with too. Any sort of tension leads to a nasty feedback loop
of the wrong kind. Where's the pleasure in it, if I'm tense and
worrying all the time from trying to re-learn too much too soon?

If I listened to everyone on here, I'd have tried clipless out a couple
of years back, would have utterly lost confidence on a bike, and
probably given the whole cycling thing up as a Bad Idea.

I have to say, I didn't start into this thread looking for 'help me
signal and use clipless' advice :-) It just seems to have ended up that
way, which wasn't my intention at all - I'm happy with the progress I'm
making, slow though it is - and have no desire to try and speed it up
only to have something set me back.

--

Velvet

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping, usually the
less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable habit will always put my
right foot down. I mormally put my right hand down as the camber of the
road makes it easier, but will use the left if there's railings or a handy
kerb. When taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll use either
foot.

The leg you put down should generally depend on which side of the traffic you
are.

I've taken to learning how to put my right foot down to adapt to cycling on the
continent, and the hardest part is learning to clip the right foot in on the go.

Quoted message said:

I must be a freak.

Well, we knew that! :-)
--
Mark South
Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>

Mark South said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping, usually the
less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable habit will always put my
right foot down. I mormally put my right hand down as the camber of the
road makes it easier, but will use the left if there's railings or a handy
kerb. When taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll use either
foot.

The leg you put down should generally depend on which side of the traffic you
are.

Why? What book's that in?

An American book I have says you should put down your left foot but
probably forgets that some people have a dominant left leg and would rather
put down their right foot. Anyway, my book obviously relates the foot to
'handedness' and not traffic.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his
friends." -Oscar Wilde
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Velvet said:

Not really, but I know how badly I react to being pushed along to do
things too fast - it all leads to tense frustrated failure. Far better
for me to do it at my own steady pace (which a lot of people regard as
similar to a snail, I might add!)

Sorry if these seems to be banging the same chords again and again...
but I'm not trying to get you to move at any pace other than your own.
What I'm suggesting is a different priority.

At the moment it seems like you're trying to lean all the basic skills
very gradually but at the same time, on "normal" rides. This is, if you
think about it, in marked contrast to the way most things are taught,
which is to hammer at basic skills one at a time. By taking out
everything but one particular skill you actually reduce the pressures of
anxiety, not increase them!
You gave a very good illustration of how there are so many things
preying on your mind on normal riding that adding anything else will
just make it worse. Quite so, but this also illustrates the quandary
with your approach: you'll learn things once you're relaxed, but it's
very difficult to relax when there's so much to worry about and the
basic skills aren't quite there.
Hammering at a basic skill over and over and over again in a situation
where everything else is removed is a proven way to get those basic
skills in place. Taking up kayaking in the not too distant past I
learned to roll the boat in a swimming pool with everything as much
under control as it could be. That made doing a roll "in anger" flipped
over in surf a lot easier to get right than learning to roll to start
with in a tricky place, as being in the swimming pool I didn't have to
worry about stern ruddering, and tidal rips, and brace strokes etc. etc.
at the same time I was getting a roll into shape.

Another parallel: I've been a free heel skier for about 12 years. For
about the first 7 of those I made gradual progress at my own rate,
practising my downhill skills on tours, and I was very happy with my
progress (does that ring any bells?). Then I ended up on a holiday with
a qualified instructor who believes in getting basic skills sorted, and
I learned more in a few days of occasional tips and repeating exercises
to hone basic skills than I had learned in the previous 7 /seasons/ of
skiing. Not only did it improve my skiing, but it improved my ability
to get even better, and serious downhills became something to enjoy
rather than to survive. I'd spent years thinking pretty much exactly
the way you seem to be doing now, and it is only with hindsight that I
can say I really wasn't doing myself any favours, though I was quite
sure I was doing what was right for me at the time.

Think of any skill you've learned, and think if it was broken down into
simple, basic steps which you got completely mastered so they were in
place and working before you had to combine them with anything else. I
can't really think of any that don't fit that description, and cycling
was one of the many that does.

Quoted message said:

of the wrong kind. Where's the pleasure in it, if I'm tense and
worrying all the time from trying to re-learn too much too soon?

It's the fact that you're trying to relearn everything at the same time
that I think is possibly part of the problem, however slowly. What I'm
suggesting doesn't really apply to "too soon", you start working on
things one at a time and keep on at your own rate until you're there
with the one thing, then address the next. There's nothing much else to
worry about in the meantime.

Quoted message said:

I have to say, I didn't start into this thread looking for 'help me
signal and use clipless' advice :-) It just seems to have ended up that
way, which wasn't my intention at all - I'm happy with the progress I'm
making, slow though it is - and have no desire to try and speed it up
only to have something set me back.

Again, I'm not trying to force a speed, just suggesting trying to do one
thing at a time, then the next thing, etc. It stops when it's finished
according to your timetable, not mine.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Velvet:

Quoted message said:

Is it the case that people actually *don't* fall of

Apparently, some people manage not to. I'm not one of them

Quoted message said:

the tales I hear HERE are, in fact, nothing more than just that, tal
tales with no fact

The facts in my case are these: I've had just one "proper" fall -
majestic sideways topple where I fully hit the ground before my fee
came unclipped, and I've had several partial falls, where I've manage
to get a foot down before losing it completely. But falling is no
something that would put me off using clipless - even the "proper" fal
didn't damage anything except my pride - I actually found it quite funn
(great slapstick moment - if someone had filmed it, I'd be sending th
video off to You've Been Framed)

Quoted message said:

I then explained WHY I haven't, and pointed out that cycling 50 mile
with cycling shoes on normal pedals isn't

proble

You've obviously given the matter plenty of thought and it's clear tha
your fears aren't based on ignorance, but I'm sure everyone is takin
that into account in their comments - which are all well-meant - an
I'm sure that everyone is respectful of the fact that it's entirel
your decision

d

-