Cutting a steerer

Quoted message said:

With this tool, too easy to do:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

With the next one, unlikely. I call *this* one a tubing cutter:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

Ahh, -that's- the problem. Don't by tools from harbor freight unless it's a brand name.

Doug

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Russ Baxter said:

Quoted message said:

I have installed a new threadless stem and need to reduce the length of the steerer. What is the
proper method for doing so?

A piece of furniture that turns into a wolf when the Moon is full said:

Even if you have one, I recommend that you DO NOT use a plumber's pipe cutter to shorten the
steerer. They can compress the end of the tube and may leave you with a stem that won't clamp
properly.

Hmmm...I always use a tubing cutter for this, neve even tried anything else. Also never had a lick
of trouble from the tubing cutter.

Park has a very nice tool for this:

parktool.comSG 6.shtmlOpen ↗

It guides a hacksaw for a clean, level cut. No compression, no problem. And if I, with a total of
four bikes and one threadless stem to work on, can own one, surely you can justify one 🙂.

Quoted message said:

By the way, my two newest personal bikes, an IRO Jamie Roy and Thorn Raven both use 1 1/8
threadless, and I've put them together with no star nut at all. I've found that I can easily
adjust the headset just by loosening the stem, pushing the bars down forcefully while twisting the
stem, then clamp in place.

I don' need no steenking starnut!

Are you sure? It strikes me that your system has a good chance of loosening off, since the only
thing stopping the stem from sliding up the steering tube is the force of the bolts trying to
squeeze it onto the stem.

Quoted message said:

Since I'm not, I've found that it allows me to install a quill type stem into the top of the
steerer, with a short piece of handlebar as a "space grip" allowing me to mount stuff there. Also
allows me to have fairly low main handlebars, with the secondary, higher bars offering an
alternate position for more relaxed riding.

The quill stem may be exerting enough extra force keeping the stem in place to save you, no?

Quoted message said:

I'll put some photos up when I get this setup dialed in better.

Sheldon "Pushing The Envelope" Brown

You're a dangerous man, Brown...

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

By the way, my two newest personal bikes, an IRO Jamie Roy and Thorn Raven both use 1 1/8
threadless, and I've put them together with no star nut at all. I've found that I can easily
adjust the headset just by loosening the stem, pushing the bars down forcefully while twisting
the stem, then clamp in place.

I don't manage to adjust my headset finely enough like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don' need no steenking starnut!

Another alternative, for the weight weenies, is to use a wedge thing then remove it after
tightening the stem.

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? It strikes me that your system has a good chance of loosening off, since the only
thing stopping the stem from sliding up the steering tube is the force of the bolts trying to
squeeze it onto the stem.

This is for the threadless system, and that's what the stem clamp bolts are for. Do you really think
the stem relies on the star nut or wedge? Those items are quite flimsy devices purely for adjusting
the headset. Nice to have a top cap though.

~PB

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ may have said:

<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

_ On soft pipe like copper, if you use a pipe cutter incorrectly you can turn a round pipe into
an oval. I guess if you really overtighten the thing the same could happen with steel.

That'll be some pretty forceful tightening. Steel and Al steerers are usually thick enough to be
strong enough to make this unlikely, unless done intentionally.

With this tool, too easy to do:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

With the next one, unlikely. I call *this* one a tubing cutter:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

Note that the first one weighs 12 pounds. The second weighs about one pound.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have no idea whether a pipe cutter properly used is okay or not, but I know you can wreck
some relatively expensive pipe with one.

Carbon steerers, yes.

And lots of other kinds. Never underestimate the power of inexperience.

Dear Werehatrack,

My plumber favors this 33-pound chain pipe-cutter:

plumbingsupply.comsnapcutters.htmlOpen ↗

Betcha I could wreck even motorcycles with it.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even if you have one, I recommend that you DO NOT use a plumber's pipe cutter to shorten the
steerer. They can compress the end of the tube and may leave you with a stem that won't clamp
properly.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hmmm...I always use a tubing cutter for this, neve even tried anything else. Also never had a lick
of trouble from the tubing cutter.

Ryan Cousineau said:

Park has a very nice tool for this:

parktool.comSG 6.shtmlOpen ↗

It guides a hacksaw for a clean, level cut. No compression, no problem. And if I, with a total of
four bikes and one threadless stem to work on, can own one, surely you can justify one 🙂.

I don't need one, I have a tubing cutter. Actually I do have one of these too, but I've never used
it. If I ever work on a fork with a plastic steerer I'll give it a try.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By the way, my two newest personal bikes, an IRO Jamie Roy and Thorn Raven both use 1 1/8
threadless, and I've put them together with no star nut at all. I've found that I can easily
adjust the headset just by loosening the stem, pushing the bars down forcefully while twisting the
stem, then clamp in place.

I don' need no steenking starnut!

Are you sure? It strikes me that your system has a good chance of loosening off, since the only
thing stopping the stem from sliding up the steering tube is the force of the bolts trying to
squeeze it onto the stem.

Those are also the only things keeping the stem from rotating around the steerer. If you've ever
tried to remove a difficult stem, you'll realize that pulling it off straight is MUCH harder than
getting it to twist on the steerer. Since the bolts are tight enough to prevent it from twisting, I
have zero concern lest it slide straight off the top.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since I'm not, I've found that it allows me to install a quill type stem into the top of the
steerer, with a short piece of handlebar as a "space grip" allowing me to mount stuff there. Also
allows me to have fairly low main handlebars, with the secondary, higher bars offering an
alternate position for more relaxed riding.

The quill stem may be exerting enough extra force keeping the stem in place to save you, no?

Not an issue. I never tighten expander/wedge stems so hard that there's a risk of damaging the
steerer, especially in an aluminum steerer.

Quoted message said:

You're a dangerous man, Brown...

I don't believe so.

Sheldon "Multi-Position" Brown +-------------------------------------------------------+
| Disclaimer: | The above are the Official Views of the | Institution, and are
| not necessary my own. |
+-------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:59:09 -0800, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

may have said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

I don' need no steenking starnut!

Are you sure? It strikes me that your system has a good chance of loosening off, since the only
thing stopping the stem from sliding up the steering tube is the force of the bolts trying to
squeeze it onto the stem.

The top cap bolt's torque is how much? And this is going to keep the stem in place in what manner?
The cap's structural functionality ceases once the stem is tight. If the stem's *not* tight, the cap
won't keep it from coming off.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since I'm not, I've found that it allows me to install a quill type stem into the top of the
steerer, with a short piece of handlebar as a "space grip" allowing me to mount stuff there. Also
allows me to have fairly low main handlebars, with the secondary, higher bars offering an
alternate position for more relaxed riding.

The quill stem may be exerting enough extra force keeping the stem in place to save you, no?

No. The quill's wedge will be below the stem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll put some photos up when I get this setup dialed in better.

Sheldon "Pushing The Envelope" Brown

You're a dangerous man, Brown...

You probably don't know the half of it...

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:47:07 -0500, Sheldon Brown

may have said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

You're a dangerous man, Brown...

I don't believe so.

instantattitudes.combs223.gifOpen ↗

(But it's the *good* kind of dangerous...)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

A *tubing* cutter, with just a knob to turn the pressure screw, probably can't develop enough force
to damage the tube. A plumber's pipe cutter, which is larger, far heavier, has a T-handle, and is a
much more forceful piece of equipment, can crush 1 1/2" plumbing pipe if the cutter's dull and/or
the tool is used incorrectly. A pipe

What about advising a potential home mechanic to secure the pipe cutter and turn the fork? With less
leverage available, it will be necessary to limit how tightly the cutter is attached.
--
Rick Onanian

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:59:38 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ may have said:

<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

_ On soft pipe like copper, if you use a pipe cutter incorrectly you can turn a round pipe into
an oval. I guess if you really overtighten the thing the same could happen with steel.

That'll be some pretty forceful tightening. Steel and Al steerers are usually thick enough to be
strong enough to make this unlikely, unless done intentionally.

With this tool, too easy to do:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

Dude, are you dissing my pipe cutter?

INFIDEL!!!!!

--
Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

Werehatrack said:

And lots of other kinds. Never underestimate the power of inexperience.

I wish I could use some inexperience-power to get up hills.
--
Rick Onanian

On 14 Jan 2004 23:13:22 -0800, [email hidden] (Carl Fogel)

Quoted message said:

My plumber favors this 33-pound chain pipe-cutter:
plumbingsupply.comsnapcutters.htmlOpen ↗

How the hell does that work? Does it use a localized crushing effect to break the pipe where you
want it? Or are the chain's plates sharpened? Or maybe, while looking much like a steroidal
bicycle chain, it's actually a chainsaw-ish chain? Or are there a bunch of little sharpened wheels
for rollers?
--
Rick Onanian

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:53:02 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]>

may have said:

What about advising a potential home mechanic to secure the pipe cutter and turn the fork? With
less leverage available, it will be necessary to limit how tightly the cutter is attached.

If it's a good cutter with a sharp wheel, a sufficiently slow feed per revolution is safe no matter
what gets moved. But defining "slow feed" without hands-on demo capability is iffy, and unless the
user is familiar with the concept of how the cutter works, they're probably safer with a hacksaw
anyway. It's sort of like telling a newbie that they can use emacs as a mail client; if they already
know how to use emacs, it *may* be safe, but if they don't, it's probably a better idea to point
them at a less esoteric dedicated mail client.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:26:03 -0500, Top Sirloin

may have said:

Dude, are you dissing my pipe cutter?

INFIDEL!!!!!

I have one myself. Well, actually, the next size down, since I don't anticipate needing to cut 3"
pipe. (At least, not this week.)

But I don't drag it out for anything but plumbing. (And I would almost rather do auto body work than
house plumbing work that involves cutting and threading iron pipe.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hmmm...I always use a tubing cutter for this, neve even tried anything else. Also never had a
lick of trouble from the tubing cutter.

A *tubing* cutter, with just a knob to turn the pressure screw, probably can't develop enough
force to damage the tube. A plumber's pipe cutter, which is larger, far heavier, has a T-handle,
and is a much more forceful piece of equipment, can crush 1 1/2" plumbing pipe if the cutter's
dull and/or the tool is used incorrectly. A pipe cutter is, for that reason, not a good choice in
my personal opinion, having seen the results of either the use of a dull one (which is my guess)
or the gross *mis*use of one. A tubing cutter, which is smaller, lighter, and less forceful,
should have little chance of doing anything but shortening the tube. (And leaving an easily
removed burr.)

Pedantry needs to come into this, since shops also call "pipe cutters" what you refer to as
tubing cutter.

The difference between a pipe and a tube is in how both are sized; pipes are sized according to
internal diameter, while tubes are sized according to outer diameter. Tubes are also generally
manufactured to tighter tolerances, and can be sized to pipe dimensions.

Therefore, using "tube cutter" to define a smaller cutter than a pipe cutter doesn't make sense,
since tubes can have the same as, or greater diameter (both ID and OD) than, pipes. It follows then
that in choosing a cutter, one should look at the cutter itself rather than whether it's called a
tube or pipe cutter.

It's a lot harder to destroy a fork steerer with a small pipe/tube cutter, that's for sure.

Werehatrack:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:33:04 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> may have said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That'll be some pretty forceful tightening. Steel and Al steerers are usually thick enough to be
strong enough to make this unlikely, unless done intentionally.

With this tool, too easy to do:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

Even an expert can mangle an item by using a sledgehammer, if only a small plastic mallet is
required. Saying that you can destroy something by using an overkill tool isn't the same as saying
inexperience can cause destruction while using an appropriate tool.

Quoted message said:

With the next one, unlikely. I call *this* one a tubing cutter:

harborfreight.comDisplayitem.tafOpen ↗

A more suitable item for steerers, and quite hard to botch a job unless you intentionally do so.

Werehatrack said:

safer with a hacksaw anyway. It's sort of like telling a newbie that they can use emacs as a mail
client; if they already know how to use emacs, it *may* be safe, but if they don't, it's probably a
better idea to point them at a less esoteric dedicated mail client.

Is this a good excuse to start an emacs vs. vi war? Please?
--
Rick Onanian

Jose Rizal _@_._ may have said:

It's a lot harder to destroy a fork steerer with a small pipe/tube cutter, that's for sure.

No argument here. Over at the local Home Depot, though, if you ask for a pipe cutter, they'll point
you at the WMD. If you ask for a tubing cutter, they'll point you at the smaller device. In common
hardware venues, "tubing" is copper stuff that's used for things like natural gas, icemakers, water
filters and other such connections. "Pipe" is iron stuff (or PVC, which is a whole different thing
to work with) that requires something just barely short of Power Tools. That's why I made the
distinction that way; a plumber's pipe cutter, in the markets with which I'm familiar, is the tool
with the potential for trouble. I probably should have mentioned that a tubing cutter is OK, but
I've gotten so used to whacking off conduit and such with the miter saw that I had pretty much
forgotten about the tubing cutter for steel. (I've probably got a half dozen tubing cutters, in
sizes varying from 1/2" capacity close-quarters for refrigeration work up to the 1 1/2" capacity one
that I use very rarely.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Carl Fogel) said:

My plumber favors this 33-pound chain pipe-cutter:
plumbingsupply.comsnapcutters.htmlOpen ↗

How the hell does that work? Does it use a localized crushing effect to break the pipe where you
want it? Or are the chain's plates sharpened? Or maybe, while looking much like a steroidal
bicycle chain, it's actually a chainsaw-ish chain? Or are there a bunch of little sharpened wheels
for rollers?

Dear Rick,

Ordinary soft-pipe cutters usually have a pair of rollers opposed at one end of a C-clap and
a cutting wheel at the other end. You tighten the clamp on the pipe and roll it around to
carve a groove.

Tighten the clamp a little more, roll it around, and eventually the groove cuts through the pipe.

If the rollers are misaligned or the pipe is irregular, you get a useless, frustrating spiral
instead of a deeper and deeper groove.

Obviously, you need room enough to swing a C-clamp entirely around the pipe. You also need a soft
pipe. And you'll probably have to work with a leak because one part of the groove will usually cut
through the pipe first.

Larger snap-cutters are for more brittle cast-iron soil pipes. They simply lash a heavy chain
(decorated with numerous brutal cutting wheels) around the pipe, tighten things down with a huge screw-
handle, swing back and forth a few degrees with a long lever to score a groove, and then crack or
snap through the pipe with another brisk twist of the screw-handle.

"Steroidal" doesn't really describe the chain. "Elephantine" might be better. The chain weighs so
much that you don't want to let it drop on your foot by accident.

There are also motor-driven versions to run the chain back and forth, but they're not chain-saws
carving chunks out. They still just cut grooves with smooth cutting wheels on a chain that can be
rocked back and forth with a long lever while being tightened with tremendous force.

Modern reciprocating saws aren't as much fun in a cramped space, particularly when whatever's
still inside the pipe will drip down onto the electrical tool (and your face) while you're
making your cut.

Ed Norton

In article <[email hidden]>,

Pete Biggs said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

By the way, my two newest personal bikes, an IRO Jamie Roy and Thorn Raven both use 1 1/8
threadless, and I've put them together with no star nut at all. I've found that I can easily
adjust the headset just by loosening the stem, pushing the bars down forcefully while twisting
the stem, then clamp in place.

I don't manage to adjust my headset finely enough like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don' need no steenking starnut!

Another alternative, for the weight weenies, is to use a wedge thing then remove it after
tightening the stem.

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? It strikes me that your system has a good chance of loosening off, since the only
thing stopping the stem from sliding up the steering tube is the force of the bolts trying to
squeeze it onto the stem.

This is for the threadless system, and that's what the stem clamp bolts are for. Do you really
think the stem relies on the star nut or wedge? Those items are quite flimsy devices purely for
adjusting the headset. Nice to have a top cap though.

Interesting...I didn't really understand the purpose of the nut and top cap. Although I realize that
stems can spin around as easily as they can go up, I was under the impression it was good form to
leave the stem loose enough that in a crash, the stem turns rather than something breaking (the bar,
most likely). In such a case, doesn't the top cap and star nut prevent the stem from creeping up the
steer tube and slackening the head bearings?

You realize of course, this theory ends with the madness of me removing my star nut and rerouting
the front brake cable through the steer tube.

Why? So I can remove the rear brake and do bar-spins on my XC mountain bike, of course.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Rick Onanian said:

Quoted message said:

And lots of other kinds. Never underestimate the power of inexperience.

I wish I could use some inexperience-power to get up hills.

You can; draft an MTB-kiddie on his banzai charge up the first hundred feet.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!