Cumulative TSS & recovery

If you've been doing more than your used to and you feel especially tired for more then a few days then it's probably time for a rest week. I would say that if you set up your training plan with rest weeks then you should take them when your particularly tired regardless of TSS numbers. TSS numbers are different for everybody in regards to how they can recover. Also after a block of long rides I'll feel less tired then with the same TSS than for a high intensity block. IIRC the TSS calculation tends to favor long rides by a little bit.

If you feel particularly tired for several days after a hard 4-6 week block then does your body really care what the exact number of TSS is ;-).

On the other hand I believe that there is a TSS for each rider that can be maintained for the full season without the need for rest weeks.

Greg Van Wagner

peterwright said:

Hi all
My gut feel is to call an impromptu recovery week next week as I feel I need to regroup. Does this make sense, and if so what sort of thing would you do in that week - bearing in mind I have a league race this coming Sat.

At what point in your season are you and when do you want to be really fit?

Something to consider: generally speaking, if you keep your rolling 7day tss more or less constant, you will first experience a down turn in performance the first couple of weeks. As the weeks go by though (roughly speaking six to eight weeks later), your body will catch up and performance will improve.

So, do you need a rest week? Well, with only six weeks of data I'd say it depends on how well you want to do on Saturday and how big a push these last six weeks were for you.

You may want to try to give a certain direction in your training curves.

Here are few examples of mezocycles (combination of 2 or more weeks). There are many more possibilities :

beerco said:

At what point in your season are you and when do you want to be really fit?

Something to consider: generally speaking, if you keep your rolling 7day tss more or less constant, you will first experience a down turn in performance the first couple of weeks. As the weeks go by though (roughly speaking six to eight weeks later), your body will catch up and performance will improve.

So, do you need a rest week? Well, with only six weeks of data I'd say it depends on how well you want to do on Saturday and how big a push these last six weeks were for you.

Thanks Andy - I am about 30% into my season. Saturday is flattish and not any more or less important than most of my league races this season. The last 4 weeks in particular have been hard work and I certainly felt on Friday and Sat last week that I absolutely needed a break..but now on Mom eve I am already feeling a bit better.. but still think an easy week will allow me to hit it hard again. This last week was my first week of 3 L4 sessions and then a hard race and so that may have contributed to my fatigue (also work was stressful)

peterwright said:

Thanks Andy - I am about 30% into my season. Saturday is flattish and not any more or less important than most of my league races this season. The last 4 weeks in particular have been hard work and I certainly felt on Friday and Sat last week that I absolutely needed a break..but now on Mom eve I am already feeling a bit better.. but still think an easy week will allow me to hit it hard again. This last week was my first week of 3 L4 sessions and then a hard race and so that may have contributed to my fatigue (also work was stressful)

Well then I think you answered your own question. Take some rest, then train hard and come back stronger.

Greg

SolarEnergy said:

You may want to try to give a certain direction in your training curves.

Here are few examples of mezocycles (combination of 2 or more weeks). There are many more possibilities :

Solar is right. You have to have a plan. Tracking TSS is a great way to periodize your training. Looking at the OP, you are simply starting too hard and working yourself into the ground after four weeks; crashing; and then starting over.

Re-start with a rest week at 450, then to 500-550-600-650 for example. Four week cycles in base is okay, 3 in build. Base tapers up, build (may) taper down.

I think the greatest thing about TSS is you need to pack in your maximum TSS Base week so that your build and racing weeks do not exceed that TSS...that is planning. I can only assume that replacing endurance with intensity satisfies the TSS equation so that the above can work.

My guess is that your fatigue is more the result of ramping up your L4-L6 time than anything else. These are hard minutes, but I think the increased intensity outweighs longer durations at less power. I imagine if you compare your L4-L6 minutes in recent weeks they increased much more than your prior weekly averages (e.g., >50%?). I'd say try backing off the volume but keep the intensity high and take a day off after every "hard" ride with lots of L4-L6 minutes (e.g., >40).

Spunout said:

You have to have a plan. Tracking TSS is a great way to periodize your training.

I don't know. Periodization doesn't seem to be very popular anymore these days.

People now seem to train being reactive to their own program, rather than trying to control that reaction by planning recovery weeks in advance.

You know the danger I see in that "straight line" kind of planning? When you have a busy, or complicated racing schedule (sometimes it makes me swear!), or a training camp that sort of thing, I don't see how you get away without building mezos.

On the other hand, they are resting when they feel tired, it may not be that bad after all?

SolarEnergy said:

You know the danger I see in that "straight line" kind of planning? When you have a busy, or complicated racing schedule (sometimes it makes me swear!), or a training camp that sort of thing, I don't see how you get away without building mezos.

I agree with you on a philosophical basis, but disagree on a practical basis. In my mind, complicated racing and life schedules (including out of town travel, family vacations, etc.) really screw up planned mezos, yet become convenient, natural breaks in an otherwise "straight line" plan. I'd be surprised if most self-coached riders really rode their plan all that tightly, so to me it makes sense to plan a "straight line" with the understanding that there will be deviations from it based on life constraints.

I'm with Frenchyge. Rest weeks are, I believe, something invented before we had good metrics such as TSS to track overall load. With a properly managed training plan, you don't need any rest weeks at all. Guys like Friel popularized the rest week to guarantee that guys weren't overtraining.

That being said, it's difficult for most to manage their training load. But, the way life often intervenes, I believe most people get more recovery than they need for optimal performance. I remember plenty of occasions where a buddy of mine who has a coach, followed the plan for a rest week only to have work or something else come up the week following resulting in two rest weeks instead of one.

On the other hand I believe that there is a TSS for each rider that can be maintained for the full season without the need for rest weeks.

When I wrote this I was trying to say that rest weeks may not be necessary but didn't want to start something big. ;-). But Beerco I agree with you basically 100%. Friel created a bunch of "training concepts" to ensure that 99 riders undertrain so that one won't "overtrain". I understand where he's coming from though because if an athlete under him got burned then that obviously would do some damage to his company.

Greg

beerco said:

I'm with Frenchyge. Rest weeks are, I believe, something invented before we had good metrics such as TSS to track overall load. With a properly managed training plan, you don't need any rest weeks at all. Guys like Friel popularized the rest week to guarantee that guys weren't overtraining.

Which reminds me of a fantastic article I wanted to post about, but forgot to do so, on the topic of so-called "institutional overtraining." This couples a few ideas, but the most important of them are:

1. Lots of evidence suggests that overtraining is psychologically mediated. Mood is a more sensitive warning sign than any biochemical or even performance-related changes.
   
2. Mood is heavily susceptible to suggestion.
   
3. By constantly worrying athletes about the looming spectre of overtraining, we might be making athletes interpret every little twitch and tweak as a sign of the DREADED OVERTRAINING SYNDROME! Thus increasing the athlete's anxiety about training, and leading to a psychological state that's actually more susceptible to overtraining than if we'd just shut up and let the athletes train.
   

This is why I'm extremely stoked about TSS. It lets you passively monitor training load, without constantly asking, "Wait, am I fatigued??? What about my heart rate? I'm thirsty, there's no reason for me to be thirsty, what the heck, am I OVERTRAINING????"

kmavm said:

Which reminds me of a fantastic article I wanted to post about, but forgot to do so, on the topic of so-called "institutional overtraining."

Wow - interesting article! Thanks for pointing it out.

acoggan said:

Wow - interesting article! Thanks for pointing it out.

Wow, I'm shocked you didn't already, like, referee the journal where all this stuff backing it up was originally published. By the way, I stayed up until an ungodly hour last night devouring my just-arrived copy of "T&R with a Power Meter" in a single sitting. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

RDO, I think you especially will get a kick out of this article. It validates your "no fear" approach to intense, specific training, and the two coaches' programs it mentions as case studies sound like they train their athletes a lot like you train yourself (albeit in swimming and rowing, rather than cycling).

kmavm said:

RDO, I think you especially will get a kick out of this article. It validates your "no fear" approach to intense, specific training, and the two coaches' programs it mentions as case studies sound like they train their athletes a lot like you train yourself (albeit in swimming and rowing, rather than cycling).

Cool.😎 My copy (of Andy's new book) should arrive by tomorrow. I can't wait. But, Ethan and anybody else interested in the matches thread should hope that my copy doesn't arrive before I finish my matches program. But, I should finish it today. Just a little housekeeping to do and a final check of all the calcs (famous last words). I'll send it to Ethan first to see if he can break it and then post it if he can't.

gvanwagner said:

On the other hand I believe that there is a TSS for each rider that can be maintained for the full season without the need for rest weeks.

When I wrote this I was trying to say that rest weeks may not be necessary but didn't want to start something big. ;-). But Beerco I agree with you basically 100%. Friel created a bunch of "training concepts" to ensure that 99 riders undertrain so that one won't "overtrain". I understand where he's coming from though because if an athlete under him got burned then that obviously would do some damage to his company.

Greg

OP here..

Very interesting discussion - all I wanted was for you guys to validate my restweek...that didnt happen for sure :eek:

Anyway, I feel that the TSS of 866 after my race on Sat certainly represented a load that was a milestone or break even for me given that ot also comprised of a highish L4-L6 load (and a greater one than I have been used to)

I can report that I will be back to L4 ints tomorrow and feel good and recovered. I subscribe to the approach that allows a rest week when needed and indicated by TSS and "gut feel" as opposed to a planned week off.

Thanks all.

peterwright said:

Very interesting discussion - all I wanted was for you guys to validate my restweek...that didnt happen for sure :eek:

Heh. Glad we could help. 😄

peterwright said:

I subscribe to the approach that allows a rest week when needed and indicated by TSS and "gut feel" as opposed to a planned week off.

I'd be amazed if TSS ever indicated that a rest *week* was in order. A couple days rest after a killer ride, sure, but I litterally cannot imagine what kind of riding would be needed to produce a TSS so high that it took an entire week to get back to an appropriate steady training load. :eek:

frenchyge said:

Heh. Glad we could help. 😄

I'd be amazed if TSS ever indicated that a rest *week* was in order. A couple days rest after a killer ride, sure, but I litterally cannot imagine what kind of riding would be needed to produce a TSS so high that it took an entire week to get back to an appropriate steady training load. :eek:

OK OK - what I meant is a reduced load week - as I said I am back on L4 train agian tomorrow and will probably just reduce TSS to sub 500 for week or more importantly until I feel good to go again. I have had a hell of a week from an emotional and stress point of view and I feel this plays a big part in my capacity to absorb training load.

peterwright said:

I can report that I will be back to L4 ints tomorrow and feel good and recovered. I subscribe to the approach that allows a rest week when needed and indicated by TSS and "gut feel" as opposed to a planned week off.

By all means, do what you feel is necessary and helpful. I used to use the "rest week," too, mostly out of habits I picked up from my previous, Friel-based training plan, but once I began to have faith in the power meter, I started asking myself if a whole WEEK was really necessary. I've done a couple of weeks over 950 TSS since getting my power meter in December, and I feel quite overreached at the end of these weeks. But after two days' recovery and another day of "getting the cobwebs out", I'm able to perform all my previous workouts at higher outputs and for longer durations. I am, therefore, by definition, "recovered." What good is four more days of squandered training, then?

If you really do need a week of recovery, your output as reflected in power metrics would tell the tale. So, why not take the need for recovery day-by-day, rather than week-by-week?