CTL and TSB

JungleBiker said:

... Sometimes when building CTL the trend line for TSB is upwards but at other times the trend line for CTL is upwards but the TSB is going downwards. Can somebody explain to me in simple terms if this is normal and why?...

It would help to see your charts but in general:

- a workout with TSS above your CTL will move your CTL upwards
- a workout with TSS above your ATL will move your ATL upwards
- typical workouts above both ATL and CTL during a build will raise both, but ATL rises faster so TSB will drop
- a workout above CTL but below ATL will move your CTL up and ATL down

So if you do a workout above your current CTL but below your current ATL your TSB will actually rebound as you raise CTL. The size of that window changes depending on where your ATL is relative to your CTL.

Perhaps what you're describing is simpler and related to the averaging times and where you typically work in terms of TSB but it's not unusual to have a slow CTL ramp during times when TSB is actually rebounding depending on your workout TSS relative to your current levels.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

It would help to see your charts

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your reply. I attach my chart (I managed to make a jpg file using Photoshop).

JB.

JungleBiker said:

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your reply. I attach my chart (I managed to make a jpg file using Photoshop).

JB.

It looks like you keep your training load fairly constant week-to-week. So, initially your load is quite a lot higher than your fitness, but as fitness improves so TSB will increase because load is staying fairly constant. You then rest, allowing your fitness to drop, and then start the process again.

Well, TSB = CTL - ATL

So think about it 😉

Combinations are:
1. ATL > CTL and converging (easing off or plateau in training loads) - TSB rises
2. ATL > CTL and diverging (ramping up of recent training loads) - TSB falls
3. ATL < CTL and converging (back into it after a rest/recovery) - TSB falls
4. ATL < CTL and diverging (tapering or resting) - TSB rises
5. Of course ATL can = CTL but usually only every so often as their paths cross in the night.

JungleBiker said:

Hi Dave, ...Thanks for your reply. I attach my chart (I managed to make a jpg file using Photoshop)...JB.

No argument on any of the other replies JB, but it seems really obvious in your graph that the TSB spikes coincide with periods where you backed off your training and closely follow periods where CTL was dropping. Sure there's a bit of a lag in the TSB spike which makes sense since ATL is a short term average. But other than the start of your training year I don't see any TSB spikes that don't correspond to a CTL drop.

That's basically what tapers and freshness are all about, you build CTL with a period of mostly negative TSB then allow CTL to drop a bit by backing off your training and TSB spikes up. In this case you go on to another build during that peak and within a few days TSB drops back down as CTL hits a new highpoint.

That chart looks pretty typical for someone using a planned periodization approach or someone with frequent training interruptions. Are CTL dips preplanned or just the way things worked out?

-Dave
edit-- I just revisited your original post and see it wasn't the positive TSB spikes you were asking about. Yeah, as Alex says during times when CTL and ATL are converging, TSB will rebound. Basically as your near term load is closer to your long term sustained load you aren't digging as deep a hole. That happens later in a build when CTL has come up and you don't have enough training time or energy to make ATL go up proportionally.

Hi Alex, Bruce and Dave, (alphabetical order but no C!)

Thanks for your replies - now I understand! The words "converging" and "diverging" helped me grasp what's going on. I was aware that TSB was CTL minus ATL but my brain was too lazy to figure out why TSB might go up at the same time as CTL was going up... I was thinking simplistically (without the maths) that I am training hard to build my CTL so how is it possible that my TSB can go upwards. Now I get it.

Just for your information, I was building my CTL nicely from last year (and was around 53 TTS/day at the beginning of Jan 07) and got up to about 97 TSS/day in mid-June at which point I was doing over 700 TSS/week hoping to get my CTL up to 100 TSS/day, but then my life got a bit stressful (work, business, travel, family, etc) and I couldn't maintain the training load so I abandoned my coach (temporarily) and let things slip, and as someone recently said, CTL can go down a lot faster than it goes up!

Anyhow, now I am back on track and building CTL again. The past two weeks I have achieved over 700 TTS/week so I hope to carry on and reach close to CTL 100 in January (now at about 86). I am still without my coach because I want to wait until I get my PT back from servicing. Currently I am using perceived power and data from old WKO files for similar rides to estimate my daily TSS. I am not doing many intervals at present so it's not so difficult and I am trying to under-estimate rather than over-estimate so that I don't cheat myself.

My goal is to become the MTB cross-country champion in Thailand for the age group 50 - 59 years old in 2008. I just turned 49 so will move up to this category in 2 weeks, (I need every advantage I can get!).

Thanks again.
Writing from sunny warm Vientiane, Lao PDR.
JB.

JungleBiker said:

and as someone recently said, CTL can go down a lot faster than it goes up!

Well that's just maths too.

e.g. let's say your CTL is 80 TSS/day.

If you don't ride today, that's zero TSS, which is 80 TSS lower than CTL. That will have a relatively larger magnitude impact on CTL (downward in this case) than say a 120 TSS ride, which is only 40 TSS (half as much) above CTL.

String a few non-ride days together and CTL drops fairly fast. Depending on how you train, I used to have an old rule of thumb - what I lost in a week would take a month to gain. Now I haven't done the maths on that though.😉

JungleBiker said:

Hi Alex, Bruce and Dave, (alphabetical order but no C!)

Thanks for your replies - now I understand! The words "converging" and "diverging" helped me grasp what's going on. I was aware that TSB was CTL minus ATL but my brain was too lazy to figure out why TSB might go up at the same time as CTL was going up... I was thinking simplistically (without the maths) that I am training hard to build my CTL so how is it possible that my TSB can go upwards. Now I get it.

Just for your information, I was building my CTL nicely from last year (and was around 53 TTS/day at the beginning of Jan 07) and got up to about 97 TSS/day in mid-June at which point I was doing over 700 TSS/week hoping to get my CTL up to 100 TSS/day, but then my life got a bit stressful (work, business, travel, family, etc) and I couldn't maintain the training load so I abandoned my coach (temporarily) and let things slip, and as someone recently said, CTL can go down a lot faster than it goes up!

Anyhow, now I am back on track and building CTL again. The past two weeks I have achieved over 700 TTS/week so I hope to carry on and reach close to CTL 100 in January (now at about 86). I am still without my coach because I want to wait until I get my PT back from servicing. Currently I am using perceived power and data from old WKO files for similar rides to estimate my daily TSS. I am not doing many intervals at present so it's not so difficult and I am trying to under-estimate rather than over-estimate so that I don't cheat myself.

My goal is to become the MTB cross-country champion in Thailand for the age group 50 - 59 years old in 2008. I just turned 49 so will move up to this category in 2 weeks, (I need every advantage I can get!).

Thanks again.
Writing from sunny warm Vientiane, Lao PDR.
JB.

Hey JB,

One of the things that you should pay attention to is the speed that CTL ramps up. In my experience it is better to progressively increase (overload) your weekly training dose than to push it to a high number and just hold it there. When CTL ramps to quickly you become susceptible to illness due to your body being seriously depleted.

So, rather than starting with your weekly training load at say 700TSS/wk, aiming to get to a CTL of 100TSS/day, start off at a lower weekly load and incrementally increase it every week.

Alex Simmons said:

Well that's just maths too.

e.g. let's say your CTL is 80 TSS/day.

If you don't ride today, that's zero TSS, which is 80 TSS lower than CTL. That will have a relatively larger magnitude impact on CTL (downward in this case) than say a 120 TSS ride, which is only 40 TSS (half as much) above CTL.

String a few non-ride days together and CTL drops fairly fast. Depending on how you train, I used to have an old rule of thumb - what I lost in a week would take a month to gain. Now I haven't done the maths on that though.😉

Hi Alex,
You’re right, it’s just maths, but I hadn’t recognized it before.
Now I understand why doing a recovery ride and thereby “earning” about 40TSS/day on a Friday rather than taking the day off (in addition to my usual rest day on Monday) helps me make greater progress when building CTL.
Thanks for explaining.
JB.

Bruce Diesel said:

Hey JB,

One of the things that you should pay attention to is the speed that CTL ramps up. In my experience it is better to progressively increase (overload) your weekly training dose than to push it to a high number and just hold it there. When CTL ramps to quickly you become susceptible to illness due to your body being seriously depleted.

So, rather than starting with your weekly training load at say 700TSS/wk, aiming to get to a CTL of 100TSS/day, start off at a lower weekly load and incrementally increase it every week.

Hi Bruce,
Thanks for your concern about building up CTL too quickly but I don’t think there is much danger of me doing that. I am currently increasing at a rate of about 3TSS/day/week which is below the recommended max limit of 5 – 7.
JB.