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Crank pedal-eye fretting question

Started by Mr Pook · · Last activity · 8 posts · 593 views

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Cycling Equipment
Published
15 April 2004
Last activity
17 April 2004
Original author
Mr Pook
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  1. June 05 said:

    For bicycles the proper modification would be to a
    tapered shoulder


    on

    Quoted message said:

    the pedal spindle instead of a flat one, and of course a
    matching taper in the face of the crank. I have by
    installing a split conical faced washer between the pedal
    shoulder and the crank in such a way that it securely
    clamps the spindle on the inside as it is tightened into
    the taper faced crank bore. This reduces the probability of
    crank failure at the pedal eye as well as getting rid of
    left hand threads on left pedals.

    Quoted message said:

    This is not something that can be done at home. It takes
    a lathe and milling machine. I chose stainless steel for
    the washers because it is not a high stress application
    where currently aluminum is the contact and I didn't want
    these to rust.

    Jobst Brandt <[email hidden]> Palo Alto CA

    As Mr. Brandt has pointed out, this is not something that is
    easy to do at home.

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug washer
    of correct size also circumvent the problem, acting as a
    sacrificial face, on which this fretting damage could
    occur? Whether such a 'soft' washer would wear instead of
    the crank face I haven't a clue. Obviously this would not
    get around the left-handed thread issue, but is this really
    a problem at all?

    Anyone?

    Thanks,

    Thomas Hood

  2. Thomas Hood said:
    Quoted message said:

    For bicycles the proper modification would be to a
    tapered shoulder on the pedal spindle instead of a flat
    one, and of course a matching taper in the face of the
    crank. I have by installing a split conical faced washer
    between the pedal shoulder and the crank in such a way
    that it securely clamps the spindle on the inside as it
    is tightened into the taper faced crank bore. This
    reduces the probability of crank failure at the pedal eye
    as well as getting rid of left hand threads on left
    pedals.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is not something that can be done at home. It takes
    a lathe and milling machine. I chose stainless steel for
    the washers because it is not a high stress application
    where currently aluminum is the contact and I didn't want
    these to rust.

    Quoted message said:

    As pointed out, this is not something that is easy to do
    at home.

    Quoted message said:

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug washer
    of correct size also circumvent the problem, acting as a
    sacrificial face, on which this fretting damage could
    occur? Whether such a 'soft' washer would wear instead of
    the crank face I haven't a clue. Obviously this would not
    get around the left-handed thread issue, but is this
    really a problem at all?

    I predict that such a washer would soon extrude from the
    interface and leave a loose pedal. Offering no better hold
    than the flat face that is already there, it adds nothing to
    the attachment but an additional failure point.

    This is another one of those design problems that bore the
    industry to death and get the response James Annan got
    about disc brake location, something that is equally simple
    to remedy.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  3. On 15 Apr 2004 10:40:08 -0700, [email hidden] (Mr Pook) may

    have said:

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug
    washer of correct size also circumvent the problem,
    acting as a sacrificial face, on which this fretting
    damage could occur?

    No. You need to either distribute the load across a more
    durable and rigid interface, or lock the shaft against
    motion. The soft aluminum washer would, in my experience,
    have the opposite effect, likely making the problem worse.
    It would be more effective to substitute a machined,
    hardened washer with a slightly concave contact face which
    would increase the steel/aluminum contact patch, in my
    opinion...and such a washer would probably be thick enough
    that it would hazardously reduce the dept of the threaded
    stub's penetration into the crank eye, so it would still
    need a pedal shaft mod before it would be workable.
    Jobst's split conical collar is a better fix for the same
    amount of work.

    On the other hand, in my collection of cobbled-together bits
    and bikes, there's a unit with an old set of Deore LX cranks
    that I obtained gratis because the threads in the left crank
    were wallowed and torn out. I drilled and tapped the eye for
    a bushing, and loctited a right-hand-thread pedal in there.
    It's been working acceptably for quite a while, but this is
    not a solution I'd apply on a bike that was going to see
    heavy use.

    I will note that an inexpensive (in mass production) better
    design for the pedal mounting method would not be difficult
    to implement at the component manufacturing level, but
    there are two big problems with trying to introduce any
    such change..

    First, the existing design has incredible marketplace
    inertia, as it has literally been in use for a century and
    has become regarded as a truly standardized part of bike
    design with just one change in that time; an increase in the
    threaded stub's diameter for the three-piece cranks. As a
    result, any attempt to introduce a new design would have to
    be embraced by both the crank makers and the multitude of
    specialty pedal manufacturers before it would have a chance
    of becoming popular.

    Second, the failures, though hardly unusual, are not so
    common that they constitute a major source of ire for the
    buying public. It is difficult to get people excited about a
    product that solves a problem that they never have had
    themselves. This factor is also a big part of the reason
    that the disc brake wheel ejection issue doesn't get more
    attention; until it happens to enough people (or exactly the
    right single individual), it's obscured by a "not my
    problem" field.

    I will also note that the inclusion of a suitable steel
    bushing in the end of the crank could essentially eliminate
    the problem you're addressing, but this adds both cost and
    weight to an item whose buyers are typically sensitive to at
    least one of those factors. (And yes, there are some cranks
    with this feature in my experience, but they're not top-of-the-
    line gear.)

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  4. [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Thomas Hood said:
    Quoted message said:

    For bicycles the proper modification would be to a
    tapered shoulder on the pedal spindle instead of a flat
    one, and of course a matching taper in the face of the
    crank. I have by installing a split conical faced
    washer between the pedal shoulder and the crank in such
    a way that it securely clamps the spindle on the inside
    as it is tightened into the taper faced crank bore.
    This reduces the probability of crank failure at the
    pedal eye as well as getting rid of left hand threads
    on left pedals.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is not something that can be done at home. It
    takes a lathe and milling machine. I chose stainless
    steel for the washers because it is not a high stress
    application where currently aluminum is the contact and
    I didn't want these to rust.

    Quoted message said:

    As pointed out, this is not something that is easy to do
    at home.

    Quoted message said:

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug
    washer of correct size also circumvent the problem,
    acting as a sacrificial face, on which this fretting
    damage could occur? Whether such a 'soft' washer would
    wear instead of the crank face I haven't a clue.
    Obviously this would not get around the left-handed
    thread issue, but is this really a problem at all?

    I predict that such a washer would soon extrude from the
    interface and leave a loose pedal. Offering no better hold
    than the flat face that is already there, it adds nothing
    to the attachment but an additional failure point.

    This is another one of those design problems that bore the
    industry to death and get the response James Annan got
    about disc brake location, something that is equally
    simple to remedy.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

    Oh well. Just out of curiousity, was the supposition
    that the 'soft' washer would wear instead of the crank
    face correct?

    On a slightly different topic, have you seen the New Dura
    Ace cranks up close. I was looking at a pair in a shop the
    other day (not that I've the means, nor inclination to spend
    $400 on a pair of cranks) and the 'web' where the two arms
    meet the crank appears to be very substantial. I'd estimate
    it to be 3-4mm thick. Is this still a likely point of
    failure. Any other impressions of the design (BB inclusive)
    as a whole?

    Thanks,

    Thomas Hood

  5. Not sure if this has anything to do with this topic, but my
    new Felt TK2 track bike came with a thin metal washer
    (unknown composition to me) for each arm/pedal. First time
    I've ever scene that. The cranks are made by Truvativ.

    Randy Hermann

    "Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 15 Apr 2004 10:40:08 -0700, [email hidden]

    (Mr Pook) may have said:

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug
    washer of correct size also circumvent the problem,
    acting as a sacrificial face, on which this fretting
    damage could occur?

    No. You need to either distribute the load across a more
    durable and rigid interface, or lock the shaft against
    motion. The soft aluminum washer would, in my experience,
    have the opposite effect, likely making the problem worse.
    It would be more effective to substitute a machined,
    hardened washer with a slightly concave contact face which
    would increase the steel/aluminum contact patch, in my
    opinion...and such a washer would probably be thick enough
    that it would hazardously reduce the dept of the threaded
    stub's penetration into the crank eye, so it would still
    need a pedal shaft mod before it would be workable.
    Jobst's split conical collar is a better fix for the same
    amount of work.

    On the other hand, in my collection of cobbled-together
    bits and bikes, there's a unit with an old set of Deore LX
    cranks that I obtained gratis because the threads in the
    left crank were wallowed and torn out. I drilled and
    tapped the eye for a bushing, and loctited a right-hand-
    thread pedal in there. It's been working acceptably for
    quite a while, but this is not a solution I'd apply on a
    bike that was going to see heavy use.

    I will note that an inexpensive (in mass production)
    better design for the pedal mounting method would not be
    difficult to implement at the component manufacturing
    level, but there are two big problems with trying to
    introduce any such change..

    First, the existing design has incredible marketplace
    inertia, as it has literally been in use for a century and
    has become regarded as a truly standardized part of bike
    design with just one change in that time; an increase in
    the threaded stub's diameter for the three-piece cranks.
    As a result, any attempt to introduce a new design would
    have to be embraced by both the crank makers and the
    multitude of specialty pedal manufacturers before it would
    have a chance of becoming popular.

    Second, the failures, though hardly unusual, are not so
    common that they constitute a major source of ire for the
    buying public. It is difficult to get people excited about
    a product that solves a problem that they never have had
    themselves. This factor is also a big part of the reason
    that the disc brake wheel ejection issue doesn't get more
    attention; until it happens to enough people (or exactly
    the right single individual), it's obscured by a "not my
    problem" field.

    I will also note that the inclusion of a suitable steel
    bushing in the end of the crank could essentially
    eliminate the problem you're addressing, but this adds
    both cost and weight to an item whose buyers are typically
    sensitive to at least one of those factors. (And yes,
    there are some cranks with this feature in my experience,
    but they're not top-of-the-line gear.)

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying
    via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
    processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  6. On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 00:02:18 GMT, "Me"

    may have said:

    Not sure if this has anything to do with this topic, but my
    new Felt TK2 track bike came with a thin metal washer
    (unknown composition to me) for each arm/pedal. First time
    I've ever scene that. The cranks are made by Truvativ.

    Truvativ's manual shows that they supply those with the
    cranks. I suspect it's a recognition of the fact that if
    you're buying a Truvativ crank set, you're probably going to
    ride it hard.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  7. Thomas Hood said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug
    washer of correct size also circumvent the problem,
    acting as a sacrificial face, on which this fretting
    damage could occur? Whether such a 'soft' washer would
    wear instead of the crank face I haven't a clue.
    Obviously this would not get around the left-handed
    thread issue, but is this really a problem at all?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I predict that such a washer would soon extrude from
    the interface and leave a loose pedal. Offering no
    better hold than the flat face that is already there,
    it adds nothing to the attachment but an additional
    failure point.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is another one of those design problems that bore
    the industry to death and get the response James Annan
    got about disc brake location, something that is equally
    simple to remedy.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh well. Just out of curiosity, was the supposition that
    the 'soft' washer would wear instead of the crank face
    correct?

    If it is softer than the crank, it would extrude out of the
    interface to cause a loose pedal in the crank. I have seen
    that happen years ago when that was the NEW idea.

    Quoted message said:

    On a slightly different topic, have you seen the New Dura
    Ace cranks up close. I was looking at a pair in a shop the
    other day (not that I've the means, nor inclination to
    spend $400 on a pair of cranks) and the 'web' where the
    two arms meet the crank appears to be very substantial.
    I'd estimate it to be 3-4mm thick. Is this still a likely
    point of failure. Any other impressions of the design (BB
    inclusive) as a whole?

    I see it as a response to the failure of the previous
    design, that as I said in this thread, I predicted years
    ago. These are difficult interfaces, especially with such
    high torque that is uncommon in most machines.

    I'm not thrilled with the embedded spindle in the right
    crank, but it gets rid of that interface (possibly) while
    the attachment of the left crank is well done. Other than
    that, I haven't had one of these in hand and have not ridden
    one so I don't know where the next weakest spot is. The
    square taper was a great leap forward when it was introduced
    to replace steel cotter attached steel cranks. Just the same
    it has some major weaknesses.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  8. Quoted message said:

    Thomas Hood writes:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So my question is: would a soft aluminium sump-plug
    washer of correct size also circumvent the problem,
    acting as a sacrificial face, on which this fretting
    damage could occur? Whether such a 'soft' washer would
    wear instead of the crank face I haven't a clue.
    Obviously this would not get around the left-handed
    thread issue, but is this really a problem at all?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I predict that such a washer would soon extrude from
    the interface and leave a loose pedal. Offering no
    better hold than the flat face that is already there,
    it adds nothing to the attachment but an additional
    failure point.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is another one of those design problems that bore
    the industry to death and get the response James Annan
    got about disc brake location, something that is equally
    simple to remedy.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh well. Just out of curiosity, was the supposition that
    the 'soft' washer would wear instead of the crank face
    correct?

    Quoted message said:

    If it is softer than the crank, it would extrude out of
    the interface to cause a loose pedal in the crank. I have
    seen that happen years ago when that was the NEW idea.

    Quoted message said:

    On a slightly different topic, have you seen the New Dura
    Ace cranks up close. I was looking at a pair in a shop the
    other day (not that I've the means, nor inclination to
    spend $400 on a pair of cranks) and the 'web' where the
    two arms meet the crank appears to be very substantial.
    I'd estimate it to be 3-4mm thick. Is this still a likely
    point of failure. Any other impressions of the design (BB
    inclusive) as a whole?

    I see it as a response to the failure of the previous
    design, that as I said in this thread, I predicted years
    ago. These are difficult interfaces, especially with such
    high torque that is uncommon in most machines.

    I'm not thrilled with the embedded spindle in the right
    crank, but it gets rid of that interface (possibly) while
    the attachment of the left crank is well done. Other than
    that, I haven't had one of these in hand and have not ridden
    one so I don't know where the next weakest spot is. The
    square taper was a great leap forward when it was introduced
    to replace steel cotter attached steel cranks. Just the same
    it has some major weaknesses.

    Also, the outboard spindle bearings solve one problem, that
    of too small a BB inside diameter for a good bearing, but
    now these are overhung on thin shells, something I would not
    readily do without a lot of high stress test riding. It
    looks bad from the outset. Maybe they tested the design but
    I can't see how these bearing cups can survive, especially
    the right cup that alternately has huge chain loads in
    addition to vertical ones. I'll wait and see. I am not ready
    to try them from what I see.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

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