Cracked up.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:15:38 -0400, D. Ferguson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I cracked up at mile 45 of a 65 mile ride and spent the last 20 miles
granny gearing up the foothills of the Allegheny Mountains. My legs
were completely gone and my knees felt like they were going to blow
out. Long story, rode too fast early, ate too little, planned wrong,
and it was only supposed to be a 50 mile ride. Blah, blah, blah....

Ok, whoopee, who cares.

Well, after that I was off the bike for 3 weeks due to work, vacation,
family, etc... other than tooling around an island on a junky fixed
gear rental.

Now back on the bike I'm all fked up. What the hell is this? My
threshold for suffering is WAY WAY WAY down. I can't keep the same
pace or heart rate going for the same amount of suffering. I wouldn't
think 3 weeks off would explain that. And I have NO injuries at all.

It's like my brain starts subconciously remembering the traumatic
event and is amplifying the pain. I don't think it's physical because
I can get out of the saddle and crank away with little more pain. But
if I conservatively ride up a 5% grade for more than half a mile it's
like I'm about to crack.

I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as to
what's the best thing to do.

You hurt yourself and didn't build on it. Now your body thinks this is something
it can hide from.

It happens. Just build back up. Pretend it's February or March or something and
go through the motions of getting dialed back into the bike. It'll be faster
than after a winter off, but it'll be the same process. Get some nice happy
miles and hours in and get your body back into relaxing and rolling with the
bike. You'll get your mojo back.

Ron

D. Ferguson said:

Now back on the bike I'm all fked up. What the hell is this? My
threshold for suffering is WAY WAY WAY down. I can't keep the same
pace or heart rate going for the same amount of suffering. I wouldn't
think 3 weeks off would explain that. And I have NO injuries at all.

3 weeks is enough to hit your fitness base. If you stop training after a
terrific week or month, finish it strong, and come back after three
weeks of relative inactivity, you simply won't be as strong.

It's possible the "bad ride" affected you psychologically, but I'm not
aware of a physical component. It'll be interesting if someone points
one out.

Just build it back up.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall

Conservative dictionary:
Judicial Activist: n. A judge who tends to rule against your wishes.

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:38:49 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as to
what's the best thing to do.

You hurt yourself and didn't build on it. Now your body thinks this is something
it can hide from.

It happens. Just build back up. Pretend it's February or March or something and
go through the motions of getting dialed back into the bike. It'll be faster
than after a winter off, but it'll be the same process. Get some nice happy
miles and hours in and get your body back into relaxing and rolling with the
bike. You'll get your mojo back.

Ron

This is an interesting post. I'm wondering, Ron, if you've had experience
in something like this or if you're just offering good will. I'd like to
know the physiological basis for something like this. It sounds to me like
there was some kind of injury, perhaps related to glycogen depletion and
possibly liver damage, or other organ damage and not just something
psychological.

jj

"Jet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:38:49 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as
to
what's the best thing to do.

You hurt yourself and didn't build on it. Now your body thinks this is
something
it can hide from.

It happens. Just build back up. Pretend it's February or March or
something and
go through the motions of getting dialed back into the bike. It'll be
faster
than after a winter off, but it'll be the same process. Get some nice
happy
miles and hours in and get your body back into relaxing and rolling
with the
bike. You'll get your mojo back.

Ron

This is an interesting post. I'm wondering, Ron, if you've had
experience
in something like this or if you're just offering good will. I'd like
to
know the physiological basis for something like this. It sounds to me
like
there was some kind of injury, perhaps related to glycogen depletion
and
possibly liver damage, or other organ damage and not just something
psychological.

The book "Consistent Winning" is something I've been recommending a lot
lately - applies most to endurance activities like the bike but also
works for things like lifting weight. The theory, in a nutshell, is
that most people don't take enough time off then get forced to take time
off because they've overtrained. It points to a number of examples,
Joan Benoit's Olympic Marathon is but one, where people returning after
an extended layoff perform better than they did before. The trouble
with overtraining is that the time off tends to be time completely off,
and that's not best - what's needed is "active recovery", usually light
to moderate activity and a few more days off than usual.

Anyway, it's a good book, out of print now but still worth finding,
IMHO.

-S-

Quoted message said:

jj

Steve Freides said:

"Jet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:38:49 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

>I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as
>to what's the best thing to do.

You hurt yourself and didn't build on it. Now your body thinks this is
something it can hide from.

It happens. Just build back up. Pretend it's February or March or
something and
go through the motions of getting dialed back into the bike. It'll be
faster
than after a winter off, but it'll be the same process. Get some nice
happy
miles and hours in and get your body back into relaxing and rolling
with the bike. You'll get your mojo back.

Ron

This is an interesting post. I'm wondering, Ron, if you've had
experience in something like this or if you're just offering good will.
I'd like to know the physiological basis for something like this. It sounds
to me like there was some kind of injury, perhaps related to glycogen
depletion and possibly liver damage, or other organ damage and not
just something psychological.

The book "Consistent Winning" is something I've been recommending a lot
lately - applies most to endurance activities like the bike but also
works for things like lifting weight. The theory, in a nutshell, is
that most people don't take enough time off then get forced to take time
off because they've overtrained. It points to a number of examples,
Joan Benoit's Olympic Marathon is but one, where people returning after
an extended layoff perform better than they did before. The trouble
with overtraining is that the time off tends to be time completely off,
and that's not best - what's needed is "active recovery", usually light
to moderate activity and a few more days off than usual.

Anyway, it's a good book, out of print now but still worth finding,
IMHO.

-S-

Huh? I don't see what this has to do with the topic. The guy didn't
overtrain, he overstressed his system.

I definitely agree with the concept of active recovery, and I think a lot
of people overtrain because they don't train consistently - not because
they train too hard - they try to cram all their training into the weekend.

Among those that do ride consistently the biggest problem seems to be
getting stale.

jj

Jet said:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:38:49 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as to
what's the best thing to do.

You hurt yourself and didn't build on it. Now your body thinks this is something
it can hide from.

It happens. Just build back up. Pretend it's February or March or something and
go through the motions of getting dialed back into the bike. It'll be faster
than after a winter off, but it'll be the same process. Get some nice happy
miles and hours in and get your body back into relaxing and rolling with the
bike. You'll get your mojo back.

Ron

This is an interesting post. I'm wondering, Ron, if you've had experience
in something like this or if you're just offering good will. I'd like to
know the physiological basis for something like this. It sounds to me like
there was some kind of injury, perhaps related to glycogen depletion and
possibly liver damage, or other organ damage and not just something
psychological.

I've been there, just a couple months ago. For me it was a couple of "epic"
mountain bike rides that went bad followed by a medical crisis in the family
that kept me off any bike for awhile. As for the rides I'd done over two hard
hours on Saturday finishing in a thunderstorm and about three on Sunday that
ended in many more miles of driving rain and hail. Normally, if I beat myself up
on a bike I'll treat it like a race or other super high intensity day and follow
up with a rest day and then use it as a building block. Unfortunately, I ended
up checking my dad into a hospital two days later and life preempts cycling.

Anyway. It took a few weeks of "starting over" to get back to where I was
before. Replicating base mileage worked for me. Then started working in high
intensity stuff after a few weeks. That just "felt" like what I needed to do.
There may be better, faster, easier ways to recover. After nearly a month off I
was also just as interested in having fun on a bike again, anyway.

Got a mechanism for it? I don't know squat about biochemistry, really. I do feel
that you can exhaust your metabolism and that ramping efforts up and down is
necessary to maintaining health. I know after a cruel effort returning can come
with the same sort of feelings that go with coming off an injury.

I would like to hear more myself from anyone who's met this.

Ron

D. Ferguson says...

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as to
what's the best thing to do.

I'm afraid you're all washed up. Time to hang up your cleats.

Jet says...

Quoted message said:

Huh? I don't see what this has to do with the topic. The guy didn't
overtrain, he overstressed his system.

You don't think that overstressing your system is a component of overtraining?

D. Ferguson said:

Ok, whoopee, who cares.

Dumbass -

You are correct. No one cares.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Now back on the bike I'm all fked up. What the hell is this? My
threshold for suffering is WAY WAY WAY down. I can't keep the same
pace or heart rate going for the same amount of suffering. I wouldn't
think 3 weeks off would explain that. And I have NO injuries at all.

I can feel a difference if I take a couple of days off the bike. 3 weeks
is a long time and your fitness level will drop considerably. Age also
has a lot to do with it. As you get older, the drop in fitnes is faster
and it takes longer to get it back.
----------------
Alex

Mad Dog said:

Jet says...

Quoted message said:

Huh? I don't see what this has to do with the topic. The guy didn't
overtrain, he overstressed his system.

You don't think that overstressing your system is a component of overtraining?

Well, yeah, but my impression was that this was an acute assault on the
system similar to, and possibly more damaging than bonking, and not
something chronic like overtraining.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...just interested in some kind of
explanation.

jj

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:20:59 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jet said:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:38:49 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

>I'm hoping this is somewhat common and that I can be enlightened as to
>what's the best thing to do.

You hurt yourself and didn't build on it. Now your body thinks this is something
it can hide from.

It happens. Just build back up. Pretend it's February or March or something and
go through the motions of getting dialed back into the bike. It'll be faster
than after a winter off, but it'll be the same process. Get some nice happy
miles and hours in and get your body back into relaxing and rolling with the
bike. You'll get your mojo back.

Ron

This is an interesting post. I'm wondering, Ron, if you've had experience
in something like this or if you're just offering good will. I'd like to
know the physiological basis for something like this. It sounds to me like
there was some kind of injury, perhaps related to glycogen depletion and
possibly liver damage, or other organ damage and not just something
psychological.

I've been there, just a couple months ago. For me it was a couple of "epic"
mountain bike rides that went bad followed by a medical crisis in the family
that kept me off any bike for awhile. As for the rides I'd done over two hard
hours on Saturday finishing in a thunderstorm and about three on Sunday that
ended in many more miles of driving rain and hail. Normally, if I beat myself up
on a bike I'll treat it like a race or other super high intensity day and follow
up with a rest day and then use it as a building block. Unfortunately, I ended
up checking my dad into a hospital two days later and life preempts cycling.

Anyway. It took a few weeks of "starting over" to get back to where I was
before. Replicating base mileage worked for me. Then started working in high
intensity stuff after a few weeks. That just "felt" like what I needed to do.
There may be better, faster, easier ways to recover. After nearly a month off I
was also just as interested in having fun on a bike again, anyway.

Got a mechanism for it? I don't know squat about biochemistry, really. I do feel
that you can exhaust your metabolism and that ramping efforts up and down is
necessary to maintaining health. I know after a cruel effort returning can come
with the same sort of feelings that go with coming off an injury.

I would like to hear more myself from anyone who's met this.

Ron

Good post; makes sense. I've never stressed my system to this degree,
though I try to train hard, and I'm looking forward to being good enough to
go harder.

I've reported one instance of flu where I was literally off the bike for
about 16 days and when I came back I was almost at exactly the same level
as when I laid off, but was about one minute faster at various checkpoints.

During the illness I literally didn't do much except maybe 10 min on the
stationary bike every three days, plus one ride at about day 8 that seemed
to go really well, though I lapsed again. I started back up where I left
off in my training log and didn't feel any soreness or DOMS or anything,
though I kept expecting it. In fact, looking back I had steady improvement
for about a week, but didn't, thankfully, have to take off any extra days
following this. This whole event was atypical, because I usually am able to
train right through any illness, excepting days when I have fever.

So my experience seems to show that with normally consistent training, a
three week layoff can result in even slight improvement - one data point.
It's interesting to see others' experiences.

The other experience I have is that every few months I go about two or
three days straight where for some reason, I just seem to be unable to get
out and ride. It's weird; but when I come back the legs feel great and I
make faster progress.

As far as biochemistry, it sounds to me like some kind of over-stressing of
the body's energy system, or adrenal system, though the OP didn't say he
felt more tired, just that he couldn't handle the pain of more intense
effort. Hopefully he'll get over it and report back again.

jj

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:50:23 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Now back on the bike I'm all fked up. What the hell is this? My
threshold for suffering is WAY WAY WAY down. I can't keep the same
pace or heart rate going for the same amount of suffering. I wouldn't
think 3 weeks off would explain that. And I have NO injuries at all.

I can feel a difference if I take a couple of days off the bike. 3 weeks
is a long time and your fitness level will drop considerably. Age also
has a lot to do with it. As you get older, the drop in fitnes is faster
and it takes longer to get it back.
----------------
Alex

It's strange, I actually feel better if I don't miss any days. One day not
riding, and I feel a bit off my game for the first few miles. Three days
off and I actually feel better - I suspect because it acts like 'tapering'
and you get an unwanted peak. Heh, I recall at times wishing I could ride
like I do after three days off all the time (if that makes sense). ;-)

It might be dependent on how consistent you are. I had only missed a
handful of days in the previous year when I got ill for three weeks and as
I mention in another post in this thread, I came back at almost the same
level as when I stopped, if not riding slightly faster.

I don't disagree that as you get older the drop in fitness would be
expected to be faster, but if you're riding every day, a week or two off
every year didn't seem to hurt in my one experience.

jj

Jet said:

Mad Dog said:

Jet says...

Quoted message said:

Huh? I don't see what this has to do with the topic. The guy didn't
overtrain, he overstressed his system.

You don't think that overstressing your system is a component of overtraining?

Well, yeah, but my impression was that this was an acute assault on the
system similar to, and possibly more damaging than bonking, and not
something chronic like overtraining.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...just interested in some kind of
explanation.

jj

For what it's worth, I've bonked and it was a lot more than bonking.
Though low on fuel I was still "there", but just with nothing left
physically, and had to keep turning.

I trained well leading up to the ride but was unaware that it would go
on past 50 miles and that the terrain would turn SO hilly at the end.
How bad could Ohio be, right? In the south eastern part... pretty bad.
My problem was not pacing for that. And riding with someone who had
ridden 3000 miles in the last 6 weeks. He felt free to drop me at mile
55. Point being, preparation and the distance weren't the problem, I
feel.

Interesting point on the "glycogen depletion and
possibly liver damage" thought. I figured I'd have been "back" after 3
weeks off, though I didn't think missing active reovery was a good
idea, but it couldn't really be helped.

D

Kurgan Gringioni said:

D. Ferguson said:

Ok, whoopee, who cares.

Dumbass -

You are correct. No one cares.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Lol, thanks, Chang. Surely as a washed up "never was" you've had some
similar experience. But don't worry, I don't expect you to contribute
anything constructive. That's just not your role.

:-)

D. Ferguson said:

Jet said:

Mad Dog said:

Jet says...

>Huh? I don't see what this has to do with the topic. The guy didn't
>overtrain, he overstressed his system.

You don't think that overstressing your system is a component of overtraining?

Well, yeah, but my impression was that this was an acute assault on the
system similar to, and possibly more damaging than bonking, and not
something chronic like overtraining.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...just interested in some kind of
explanation.

jj

For what it's worth, I've bonked and it was a lot more than bonking.
Though low on fuel I was still "there", but just with nothing left
physically, and had to keep turning.

I trained well leading up to the ride but was unaware that it would go
on past 50 miles and that the terrain would turn SO hilly at the end.
How bad could Ohio be, right? In the south eastern part... pretty bad.
My problem was not pacing for that. And riding with someone who had
ridden 3000 miles in the last 6 weeks. He felt free to drop me at mile
55. Point being, preparation and the distance weren't the problem, I
feel.

Interesting point on the "glycogen depletion and
possibly liver damage" thought. I figured I'd have been "back" after 3
weeks off, though I didn't think missing active reovery was a good
idea, but it couldn't really be helped.

D

Hey, don't get all worried about any damage, I was just speculating, and
not basing it on anything.

Remember the guys riding the tours dig deeper than you or I do every day
for three weeks.

Take er easy and let us know about your recovery, maybe keep some daily
ride notes and let us know how you do as you progress.

jj

Jet said:

Hey, don't get all worried about any damage, I was just speculating, and
not basing it on anything.

Remember the guys riding the tours dig deeper than you or I do every day
for three weeks.

Take er easy and let us know about your recovery, maybe keep some daily
ride notes and let us know how you do as you progress.

jj

Yeah, I did a couple 20's, plan a 30 for tomorrow and then get about
60 in on Sunday. All rolling hills and at my own pace so hopefully
I'll know more by this time next week. At this point I think a lot of
it is still psychological because my average HR is down about 10 bpm
with the same percieved effort.

Much appreciation for the input!

D

D. Ferguson says...

Quoted message said:

Jet wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hey, don't get all worried about any damage, I was just speculating, and
not basing it on anything.

Right, see a doc if you are worried. Internet health advice ain't worth the
toilet paper it takes to wipe it up (so I guess you should discount what I say
below).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Remember the guys riding the tours dig deeper than you or I do every day
for three weeks.

I thought that was because they were all dopers?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Take er easy and let us know about your recovery, maybe keep some daily
ride notes and let us know how you do as you progress.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I did a couple 20's, plan a 30 for tomorrow and then get about
60 in on Sunday. All rolling hills and at my own pace so hopefully
I'll know more by this time next week. At this point I think a lot of
it is still psychological because my average HR is down about 10 bpm
with the same percieved effort.

I've found it very difficult to predict or correlate rides at the extremes. For
example, I used to ride every TT I could and my best rides often came after a
lethargic warmup. Likewise, the bad rides and aftermaths can sneak up on you.
Maybe you had some kind of bug hitting you that day? It's not easy to add it to
your routine, but checking your waking pulse and taking your temp every day is
good stuff to add to your training log. In particular, you can get a heads up
if you're overtraining or if you are fighting a virus.

Jet says...

Quoted message said:

So my experience seems to show that with normally consistent training, a
three week layoff can result in even slight improvement - one data point.
It's interesting to see others' experiences.

There's a ton of literature on the reminiscence effect for skill-intensive
sports. Time off can help your brain sort and delete engram components that are
inneficient. I have personally seen this to be very real for golf and rock
climbing, particularly after a period of very intense training. the literature
suggests a couple of ~10 day breaks per year, right after the peak of a
training/competing period.

Quoted message said:

The other experience I have is that every few months I go about two or
three days straight where for some reason, I just seem to be unable to get
out and ride. It's weird; but when I come back the legs feel great and I
make faster progress.

As long as you can listen to your own signals, this is just exactly what your
body/mind needs. I wish I was more sensitive to it all. Good rest at the right
time is so good for the physical and mental side.

Quoted message said:

As far as biochemistry, it sounds to me like some kind of over-stressing of
the body's energy system, or adrenal system, though the OP didn't say he
felt more tired, just that he couldn't handle the pain of more intense
effort. Hopefully he'll get over it and report back again.

Pain at intense output can be tendonitis, viral infection or maybe just due to
being anaerobic too much that day. Welcome to reality.