Cornering question

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I went to a women's cycling clinic this weekend where we spent some

time

Quoted message said:

doing cornering drills. Cornering has always been a weakness of mine

and no

Quoted message said:

one has ever really "taught" me how to corner. I noticed that in

initiating

Quoted message said:

the turn, I push down on my inside hand, which seems to tip the bike

into

Quoted message said:

the turn. When I asked the coach about this, he stated that pushing

down on

Quoted message said:

the inside hand was "old school" turning and that he recommended

pulling up

Quoted message said:

on the outside hand (outside leg is down and weighted in both styles).

I

Quoted message said:

tried his way, which felt really awkward and sort of naturally

gravitated

Quoted message said:

back to my "old school way". With the other pointers that he taught

us, my

Quoted message said:

cornering improved dramatically and I felt really confident in the

turns.

Quoted message said:

Later, another woman asked him about countersteering, which he said

was what

Quoted message said:

I was doing by pushing down on my inside hand and that he could teach

her

Quoted message said:

about it later. So what is the right way to weight the bars, or not?

And

Quoted message said:

is there a consensus on a new, improved way to corner?

Cat

The hip plays a big role in cornering and control (that's why the
saddles without the long part are dangerous). The more you tilt the
more you turn.

Countersteering looks pretty dangerous, (esp on 23mm tires), unless you
know how to control your skid.

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I went to a women's cycling clinic this weekend where we spent some

time

Quoted message said:

doing cornering drills. Cornering has always been a weakness of mine

and no

Quoted message said:

one has ever really "taught" me how to corner. I noticed that in

initiating

Quoted message said:

the turn, I push down on my inside hand, which seems to tip the bike

into

Quoted message said:

the turn. When I asked the coach about this, he stated that pushing

down on

Quoted message said:

the inside hand was "old school" turning and that he recommended

pulling up

Quoted message said:

on the outside hand (outside leg is down and weighted in both styles).

I

Quoted message said:

tried his way, which felt really awkward and sort of naturally

gravitated

Quoted message said:

back to my "old school way". With the other pointers that he taught

us, my

Quoted message said:

cornering improved dramatically and I felt really confident in the

turns.

Quoted message said:

Later, another woman asked him about countersteering, which he said

was what

Quoted message said:

I was doing by pushing down on my inside hand and that he could teach

her

Quoted message said:

about it later. So what is the right way to weight the bars, or not?

And

Quoted message said:

is there a consensus on a new, improved way to corner?

Cat

The hip plays a big role in cornering and control (that's why the
saddles without the long part are dangerous). The more you tilt the
more you turn.

Countersteering looks pretty dangerous, (esp on 23mm tires), unless you
know how to control your skid.

Yes, the hip does play a big role and the coach taught us some good tips for
that. Your comment about skidding, though, confuses me. Why would you
skid, or why would countersteering cause one to skid??

Cat

Quoted message said:

From: John Forrest Tomlinson [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle racing
books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar and
he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

Jiyang Chen said:

Countersteering looks pretty dangerous,
(esp on 23mm tires), unless you
know how to control your skid.

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

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"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Forrest Tomlinson [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle

racing

Quoted message said:

books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar

and

Quoted message said:

he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

Now, that's a good idea! Except that the coach said that a few things are
quite different from motorcycle cornering (one being that he wants you to
pull the inside knee into the top tube where a motorcyclists tries to "put
the puck down"😉 and I don't want to confuse the two...

Cat

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Jiyang Chen said:

Countersteering looks pretty dangerous,
(esp on 23mm tires), unless you
know how to control your skid.

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

That's an understatement (sorry, JC).

I think that if you actually have to think about countersteering, you're
in trouble. It's a pretty subtle thing, to me - it just seems to be how I
naturally start a turn. Shifting weight in the saddle seems to always come
after the turn is initiated for me, but, again, that's a subtle thing (in
general).

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

(TritonRider) said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Forrest Tomlinson [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle
racing
books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar and
he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

I need to look into it, but I thought Keith Code was one of the
"countersteering isn't how a motorcycle turns" guys. A few years ago, there
was a huge debate about it in Road Racing World magazine and his name came
up a lot. I don't recall for sure which way he leaned (so to speak).

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Cat Dailey said:

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: John Forrest Tomlinson [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle

racing

Quoted message said:

books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar

and

Quoted message said:

he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

Now, that's a good idea! Except that the coach said that a few things are
quite different from motorcycle cornering (one being that he wants you to
pull the inside knee into the top tube where a motorcyclists tries to "put
the puck down"😉 and I don't want to confuse the two...

Cat

Interesting - I always noticed that I tended to sort of point my inside
knee a little towards the inside of a turn (it's a lifelong habit), and a
few years ago, I read an article with Maurizio Fondriest where he stated
that pointing your knee somewhat in the direction of the turn seemed to
help you get around the turn.

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Quoted message said:

From: Howard Kveck [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I need to look into it, but I thought Keith Code was one of the
"countersteering isn't how a motorcycle turns" guys. A few years ago, there
was a huge debate about it in Road Racing World magazine and his name came
up a lot. I don't recall for sure which way he leaned (so to speak).

--
tanx,
Howard

You made me go look.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

"The best result was one of my instructors. He got into a full hangoff position
and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide
arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800
feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc
at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't very smooth and it wasn't very effective."

"We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind
after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.
You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in
their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in their
hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No BS.
Dangerous Misconceptions"

Bill C

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Cat Dailey said:

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>From: John Forrest Tomlinson [email hidden]

>I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
>dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.
>
>JT

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code

motorcycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

racing

Quoted message said:

books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are

similar

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

Now, that's a good idea! Except that the coach said that a few things

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

quite different from motorcycle cornering (one being that he wants you

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pull the inside knee into the top tube where a motorcyclists tries to

"put

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the puck down"😉 and I don't want to confuse the two...

Cat

Interesting - I always noticed that I tended to sort of point my inside
knee a little towards the inside of a turn (it's a lifelong habit), and a
few years ago, I read an article with Maurizio Fondriest where he stated
that pointing your knee somewhat in the direction of the turn seemed to
help you get around the turn.

I thought so, too, but when the coach had us slide our butts all the way
back and then bring the inside leg in, it seemed to help put my hips in the
right place relative to the turn (and I am not sure I could even tell you
where that is). He also had us corner in the drops only, which also helped
considerably. I just happened to notice that when I did all of these things
(and weighted the outside leg), that I initiated the turn by pushing down on
my inside hand and sort of tipping the bike over. I didn't "think" to do
it; it just happens that way for me. I was surprised to learn that it was
an "old school" technique and that coach referred to it as countersteering.
I want to know if it is better to try a "newer method?" by pulling up on the
outside hand (sort of pulling against the outside leg which is weighted
down?) which is what I *think* he was recommending.

Cat

(TritonRider) said:

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle racing
books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar and
he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

He came out with a cycling-specific book called _A Gear Higher_. It's
great.

JT

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Cat Dailey said:

I thought so, too, but when the coach had us slide our butts all the way
back and then bring the inside leg in, it seemed to help put my hips in the
right place relative to the turn (and I am not sure I could even tell you
where that is). He also had us corner in the drops only, which also helped
considerably. I just happened to notice that when I did all of these things
(and weighted the outside leg), that I initiated the turn by pushing down on
my inside hand and sort of tipping the bike over. I didn't "think" to do
it; it just happens that way for me. I was surprised to learn that it was
an "old school" technique and that coach referred to it as countersteering.
I want to know if it is better to try a "newer method?" by pulling up on the
outside hand (sort of pulling against the outside leg which is weighted
down?) which is what I *think* he was recommending.

There's a drill I suggest which helps provide some understanding of
the how the body controls the bike in cornering -- it's to go through
a slalom course with different points of contact on the bike.

First do it pedalling normalling, in the saddle.

Then try it out of the saddle.

Next try it no handed pedalling in the saddle.

Next try it in the sitting on the saddle, with the hands on the bars,
but clipped out (you will have to pedal before hitting the slalom to
get some speed).

For me, the latter is by far the scariest.

We also do it one time steering the bike and keeping it very upright,
and then pushing the bike down countersteering.

I doubt this directly answer's Cat's questions, but I think it is
useful for getting a sense of how the bike is controlled.

JT

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(TritonRider) said:

You made me go look.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

"The best result was one of my instructors. He got into a full hangoff position
and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide
arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800
feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc
at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't very smooth and it wasn't very effective."

"We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind
after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.
You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in
their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in their
hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No BS.
Dangerous Misconceptions"

I feel weird writing much about cornering because I suck (relative to
some of my peers) but one way I show this is to set up a small loop or
course for riders to go around, perhaps with cones about 50 or 100
feet apart. I have then ride around a few laps slowly with the bike
upright and steering, then a few with a lot of leaning and
countersteering. Then a few "normal" which is just a little counter
steering.

We gradually raise the speed and mix up the various techniques, and it
soon become clear that trying to go around w/o countersteering won't
work well at all.

JT

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Countersteering is completely intuitive. Try this, ride with only the left
hand on the bar and try to turn right just by pushing out with the left
side. Doesn't work. Now see where you go when you pull with the left hand.

You even countersteer when turning no handed, by shifting weight to begin
the turn countersteering.

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Jiyang Chen said:

Countersteering looks pretty dangerous,
(esp on 23mm tires), unless you
know how to control your skid.

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

JT

That's an understatement (sorry, JC).

I think that if you actually have to think about countersteering,

you're

Quoted message said:

in trouble. It's a pretty subtle thing, to me - it just seems to be how I
naturally start a turn. Shifting weight in the saddle seems to always come
after the turn is initiated for me, but, again, that's a subtle thing (in
general).

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I thought so, too, but when the coach had us slide our butts all the way
back and then bring the inside leg in, it seemed to help put my hips in

the

Quoted message said:

right place relative to the turn (and I am not sure I could even tell you
where that is). He also had us corner in the drops only, which also

helped

Quoted message said:

considerably. I just happened to notice that when I did all of these

things

Quoted message said:

(and weighted the outside leg), that I initiated the turn by pushing down

on

Quoted message said:

my inside hand and sort of tipping the bike over. I didn't "think" to do
it; it just happens that way for me. I was surprised to learn that it was
an "old school" technique and that coach referred to it as

countersteering.

Quoted message said:

I want to know if it is better to try a "newer method?" by pulling up on

the

Quoted message said:

outside hand (sort of pulling against the outside leg which is weighted
down?) which is what I *think* he was recommending.

Cat, there is no "real" technique for getting around corners that's superior
to all the others. The actual exercise of cornering a lot will eventually
give you confidence in your abilities and just about any way you do it will
work. As far as I've been able to determine the only drop-dead technique
that you must learn is to always weight the outside pedal. And that is only
important to keep you from weighting the inside one, dragging a pedal and
going down in a very unfortunate point in a race.

As for inside vs. outside hand - it doesn't make a lick of difference. In
some sorts of corners with some sorts of positions of the bike you will
automatically do it one way or the other. Whichever way feels the most
correct to you at that time.

It requires so very little effort to corner a bike that, unlike a
motorcycle, the mechanics of cornering aren't readily understandable to most
people and so clinics are a good idea to at least get you thinking about
what you're doing.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(TritonRider) said:

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle

racing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

He came out with a cycling-specific book called _A Gear Higher_. It's
great.

JT

Now, that I'll have to get!

Cat

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(TritonRider) said:

You made me go look.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

"The best result was one of my instructors. He got into a full hangoff

position

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide,

wide

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X

800

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the

turning arc

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't very smooth and it wasn't very effective."

"We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's

mind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No

doubts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No BS.
Dangerous Misconceptions"

I feel weird writing much about cornering because I suck (relative to
some of my peers) but one way I show this is to set up a small loop or
course for riders to go around, perhaps with cones about 50 or 100
feet apart. I have then ride around a few laps slowly with the bike
upright and steering, then a few with a lot of leaning and
countersteering. Then a few "normal" which is just a little counter
steering.

We gradually raise the speed and mix up the various techniques, and it
soon become clear that trying to go around w/o countersteering won't
work well at all.

JT

That sounds worthwhile, because this coach never really addressed what
should be going on in the front of the bike, other than that your hands
should be in the drops, eyes looking through the turn, and scanning for
traffic. I made the comment about pressing with the inside hand after
noticing I was doing it.

cat

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Countersteering is completely intuitive. Try this, ride with only the left
hand on the bar and try to turn right just by pushing out with the left
side. Doesn't work. Now see where you go when you pull with the left hand.

You even countersteer when turning no handed, by shifting weight to begin
the turn countersteering.

Does it matter if you pull with the left or push with the right?

Cat

Cat Dailey said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(TritonRider) said:

My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle

racing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are similar

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
Bill C

He came out with a cycling-specific book called _A Gear Higher_. It's
great.

JT

Now, that I'll have to get!

"A Gear Higher" is an excellent book about cornering.
Interestingly, the authors spend very little time talking
about body position, pulling on the bars, or any of the
other things that many people seem to dwell upon - mostly
because they are of minor importance anyway. What the
authors do spend a lot of time on are reading the corner,
judging the conditions, entrance and exit speeds, and
finding the right line - these are the important things.

Here's a quick article by Mark McCormack on the Women's
Cyclist web site about cornering:

http://www.womencyclists.com/article_specific.php?articleID=42

McCormack too talks little about body position or
countersteering, but mainly concentrates on reading the road
conditions and finding the right line.

When I teach cornering at our club's racing clinic, the
three things I stress the most are getting comfortable with
being leaned far from vertical (you can't corner well if you
aren't comfortable in a lean), visualizing the line you want
to follow, and looking ahead and through the turn (instead
of just looking at the road directly in front of you).

One of the best exercises in working on cornering is to
follow directly behind someone who is a good cornerer. When
you follow a good cornerer, matching their speed and keeping
your wheels right in the track of their wheels, it is
amazing how fast and smooth a corner can be.

Mark McMaster
[email hidden]