Cornering question

In article <[email hidden]>,

(TritonRider) said:

Quoted message said:

From: Howard Kveck [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I need to look into it, but I thought Keith Code was one of the
"countersteering isn't how a motorcycle turns" guys. A few years ago, there
was a huge debate about it in Road Racing World magazine and his name came
up a lot. I don't recall for sure which way he leaned (so to speak).

--
tanx,
Howard

You made me go look.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

"The best result was one of my instructors. He got into a full hangoff
position
and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide
arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800
feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning
arc
at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't very smooth and it wasn't very effective."

"We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind
after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.
You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in
their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in
their
hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No BS.
Dangerous Misconceptions"

Bill C

Ok, that's the stuff. I remembered that his name came up a bunch in that
discussion, but couldn't remember what side of the argument he fell on.
Thanks for the reminder.

By the way, I saw one of those turbo'd Hondas a couple weeks ago. Those
are kind of cool looking bikes.

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich said:

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I thought so, too, but when the coach had us slide our butts all the way
back and then bring the inside leg in, it seemed to help put my hips in

the

Quoted message said:

right place relative to the turn (and I am not sure I could even tell you
where that is). He also had us corner in the drops only, which also

helped

Quoted message said:

considerably. I just happened to notice that when I did all of these

things

Quoted message said:

(and weighted the outside leg), that I initiated the turn by pushing down

on

Quoted message said:

my inside hand and sort of tipping the bike over. I didn't "think" to do
it; it just happens that way for me. I was surprised to learn that it was
an "old school" technique and that coach referred to it as

countersteering.

Quoted message said:

I want to know if it is better to try a "newer method?" by pulling up on

the

Quoted message said:

outside hand (sort of pulling against the outside leg which is weighted
down?) which is what I *think* he was recommending.

Cat, there is no "real" technique for getting around corners that's superior
to all the others. The actual exercise of cornering a lot will eventually
give you confidence in your abilities and just about any way you do it will
work. As far as I've been able to determine the only drop-dead technique
that you must learn is to always weight the outside pedal. And that is only
important to keep you from weighting the inside one, dragging a pedal and
going down in a very unfortunate point in a race.

Well almost. If you really want to take the corner as fast as possible
in a race with say, Cat 3's and below, which seems applicable for
someone asking these questions, don't lift a hand or press a hand or
worry about this. Most of your corners will be so slow that weighting
the outside foot isn't even necessary either. With Speedplay pedals or
similar you can pedal through nearly all corners faster than you'll be
doing it anyway. Just ride through lots and lots of corners withpeople
around you, trying not to use your brakes any more than absolutely
necessary, practice moving your hips around as you corner to get a good
feel for this, and keep going around lots of corners about as fast as
you can. Look ahead to see what adjustments you might need to make. The
steering issue is really minimal compared to all these other things.

Quoted message said:

As for inside vs. outside hand - it doesn't make a lick of difference. In
some sorts of corners with some sorts of positions of the bike you will
automatically do it one way or the other. Whichever way feels the most
correct to you at that time.

It requires so very little effort to corner a bike that, unlike a
motorcycle, the mechanics of cornering aren't readily understandable to most
people and so clinics are a good idea to at least get you thinking about
what you're doing.

Yea, what he said.

-WG (700+ criteriums and counting)

warren said:

snippety snip
With Speedplay pedals or similar you can pedal through nearly all
corners faster than you'll be doing it anyway.

Why would Speedplay pedals enable you to pedal through corners where other
pedals won't??????
What do you mean by "or similar"?

--
Perre
"Now I'm curious"

Cat Dailey said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Countersteering is completely intuitive. Try this, ride with only
the left hand on the bar and try to turn right just by pushing out
with the left side. Doesn't work. Now see where you go when you pull
with the left hand.

You even countersteer when turning no handed, by shifting weight to
begin the turn countersteering.

Does it matter if you pull with the left or push with the right?

Cat

I don't know the answer, but if you think about it the bike would hardly
know the difference. However your own body balance may be affected.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Howard Kveck said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 26 Sep 2004 15:25:47 EDT, "Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Countersteering looks pretty dangerous,
(esp on 23mm tires), unless you
know how to control your skid.

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

Quoted message said:

That's an understatement (sorry, JC).
I think that if you actually have to think about countersteering, you're
in trouble. It's a pretty subtle thing, to me - it just seems to be how I
naturally start a turn. Shifting weight in the saddle seems to always come
after the turn is initiated for me, but, again, that's a subtle thing (in
general).

Yes, countersteering is how everyone initiates a bicycle turn,
with a very small countersteer to make the bicycle lean to go
around the corner (except at very low speeds I guess). But you
don't really have to think about the countersteer, just do it.
Kind of like Moliere's character who was overjoyed to learn that
he had been speaking prose all his life.

Dirt track motorcycles sometimes use extreme countersteer to
power slide around corners. You could never do that on a bicycle,
because it's impossible for the rider to put any power to the
wheel in that position, and anyway the available power to
weight ratio is so much less. The different weight distributions
and power make ideal cornering on bikes and motorbikes
different (so I'm told - I have little experience with
motorcycles).

In article <4157c64b$1@darkstar>, Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Howard Kveck said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 26 Sep 2004 15:25:47 EDT, "Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Countersteering looks pretty dangerous,
> (esp on 23mm tires), unless you
>know how to control your skid.

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

Quoted message said:

That's an understatement (sorry, JC).
I think that if you actually have to think about countersteering, you're
in trouble. It's a pretty subtle thing, to me - it just seems to be how I
naturally start a turn. Shifting weight in the saddle seems to always come
after the turn is initiated for me, but, again, that's a subtle thing (in
general).

Yes, countersteering is how everyone initiates a bicycle turn,
with a very small countersteer to make the bicycle lean to go
around the corner (except at very low speeds I guess). But you
don't really have to think about the countersteer, just do it.
Kind of like Moliere's character who was overjoyed to learn that
he had been speaking prose all his life.

That's exactly what I meant by being in trouble if you have to think
about doing it. It should simply happen intuitively. Someone who's
consciously thinking about pushing down on one side of the bars or the
other is just never going to be smooth in turns.

Quoted message said:

Dirt track motorcycles sometimes use extreme countersteer to
power slide around corners.

Countersteering is certainly what gets the bike started turning, but I
don't know that I'd really think of the rest of the turn as
countersteering. I think there's some amount of it through the turn (fine
tuning), but on dirt, it also seems to be more about weight distribution
and control of traction (via throttle) to keep the rear wheel out and the
bike carving around the turn. I can't say for sure, since I've never
flattracked. I think Carl took Kenny Roberts' XR100 flattrack school,
though, so he'd be a better one to discuss this. We could learn something
from that.

Quoted message said:

You could never do that on a bicycle,
because it's impossible for the rider to put any power to the
wheel in that position, and anyway the available power to
weight ratio is so much less. The different weight distributions
and power make ideal cornering on bikes and motorbikes
different (so I'm told - I have little experience with
motorcycles).

Initiating the turn seems the same to me on both. I think the main
difference is that you can lean a motorcycle further over than a bike
(because of suspension and tires, etc.), but you can lean a bicycle further
over than most people think.

(I guess a Moliere referrence is better than a Dead Milkman one, heh...)

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

That's exactly what I meant by being in trouble if you have to think
about doing it. It should simply happen intuitively. Someone who's
consciously thinking about pushing down on one side of the bars or the
other is just never going to be smooth in turns.

In racing, you shouldn't be "consciously" doing this stuff -- ti
should be automatic. But in practice, it is definitely worth trying
all sorts of extreme stuff to get a better understanding of how the
bike is controlled and the forces that work on it.

JT

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"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I went to a women's cycling clinic this weekend where we spent some time
doing cornering drills. Cornering has always been a weakness of mine and no
one has ever really "taught" me how to corner. I noticed that in initiating
the turn, I push down on my inside hand, which seems to tip the bike into
the turn. When I asked the coach about this, he stated that pushing down on
the inside hand was "old school" turning and that he recommended pulling up
on the outside hand (outside leg is down and weighted in both styles). I
tried his way, which felt really awkward and sort of naturally gravitated
back to my "old school way". With the other pointers that he taught us, my
cornering improved dramatically and I felt really confident in the turns.
Later, another woman asked him about countersteering, which he said was what
I was doing by pushing down on my inside hand and that he could teach her
about it later. So what is the right way to weight the bars, or not? And
is there a consensus on a new, improved way to corner?

Cat

Let me get this straight: so you actually learned how to take a turn
on a racing bicycle? I must say i'm stunned.

Kenny

Quoted message said:

From: Howard Kveck [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Ok, that's the stuff. I remembered that his name came up a bunch in that
discussion, but couldn't remember what side of the argument he fell on.

That's why I had to go look. I went with my first remembered impression, but
when you weren't sure, neither was I.
Found a pic of the Bike. They definitely were cool.
http://www.bikez.com/bike/index.php?bike=18180
Thanks
Bill C

Kenny said:

Let me get this straight: so you actually learned how to take a turn
on a racing bicycle? I must say i'm stunned.

Don't worry. If you practice you will soon learn too.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4157c64b$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

Howard Kveck said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 26 Sep 2004 15:25:47 EDT, "Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Countersteering looks pretty dangerous,
> (esp on 23mm tires), unless you
>know how to control your skid.

I don't think someone who says countersteering "looks pretty
dangerous" should be giving technical advice in a bike racing group.

Quoted message said:

That's an understatement (sorry, JC).
I think that if you actually have to think about countersteering,

you're

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in trouble. It's a pretty subtle thing, to me - it just seems to be how

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

naturally start a turn. Shifting weight in the saddle seems to always

come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

after the turn is initiated for me, but, again, that's a subtle thing

(in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general).

Yes, countersteering is how everyone initiates a bicycle turn,
with a very small countersteer to make the bicycle lean to go
around the corner (except at very low speeds I guess). But you
don't really have to think about the countersteer, just do it.
Kind of like Moliere's character who was overjoyed to learn that
he had been speaking prose all his life.

Yup, countersteering is how you initiate any turn on a two-wheeler,
motorized or not, and once the bike "falls" into the turn, subtle weight
shifts and the bike's own steering geometry take over. You just have to
feel it.

Quoted message said:

Dirt track motorcycles sometimes use extreme countersteer to
power slide around corners. You could never do that on a bicycle,
because it's impossible for the rider to put any power to the
wheel in that position, and anyway the available power to
weight ratio is so much less. The different weight distributions
and power make ideal cornering on bikes and motorbikes
different (so I'm told - I have little experience with
motorcycles).

I used to race motorcycles, mainly off-road but also a bit of road (many
non-racing road miles in any case). The two styles differ greatly. Often
in the dirt you *want* the bike to slide, to "square off" the corners or use
the increased grip that comes from high slip angles on dirt to get more
speed in the corners. Which lends itself to the upright body/leaned over
bike style that some people suggest for bicycles. I never could understand
that one; telling people to use a style on their bicycle that's *intended*
to cause slides. The point of leaning is to get the center of gravity
inside the arc of your wheels; how far inside being dependent on weight,
corner radius and speed. The more upright your body is, the more you have
to lean the bike for a given cornering situation. That's why motorcycle
roadracers hang way off the inside; you only have so far you can lean the
bike before solid bits start hitting, so you get some extra CG shift by
climbing over to the inside. Obviously takes less shift to accomplish on a
20lb bicycle with a CG that's dominated by rider weight than it does on a
300-400lb motorcycle, so that's why hanging off is pointless on a bicycle.
The bicycle parallel is probably the inside knee out some posters mention.
Slight CG shifts can be made just by moving the knee or upper body a bit.

As far as the OP's question about whether it's better to push down on the
inside arm or pull up on the outside; her instructor was just blowing smoke.
It really isn't an either-or situation and there IS no "new school" of
cornering on bicycles - it's the same now as it's ever been. You use both
arms, and you're going to "feel" the inside one more as you're leaning that
way and it's likely supporting more of your weight than the outside one.
Neither arm should be locked, and as some have noted you can use the bike's
geometry to steer with your body and not even use input from your hands.
I'd say it's like golf; the more you think about it while doing it, the
worse you're likely to be at it.

SB

In article <[email hidden]>, Per Elmsäter

Quoted message said:

warren said:

snippety snip
With Speedplay pedals or similar you can pedal through nearly all
corners faster than you'll be doing it anyway.

Why would Speedplay pedals enable you to pedal through corners where other
pedals won't??????
What do you mean by "or similar"?

Speedplay, and some other pedals have very good ground clearance so you
can lean over more than some other pedals and keep pedaling.

-WG

warren wrote:

]

Quoted message said:

Speedplay, and some other pedals have very good ground clearance so you
can lean over more than some other pedals and keep pedaling.

-WG

The shoe scrapes before the pedal does with Speedplays.

Speedplays + short cranks mean I never worry about scraping
pedals as long as someone else has clearance. I used to scrape
old Times regularly -- Speedplays, essentially never.

Dan

Howard Kveck said:

Interesting - I always noticed that I tended to sort of point my
inside knee a little towards the inside of a turn (it's a lifelong
habit), and a few years ago, I read an article with Maurizio
Fondriest where he stated that pointing your knee somewhat in the
direction of the turn seemed to help you get around the turn.

There are plenty of shots of the pros doing just that when cornering. I tend
to point my knee into a turn when descending, but rely on my hips more when
cornering on the flat, in a crit for example.

"Mark McMaster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cat Dailey said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 26 Sep 2004 20:15:57 GMT, [email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote:

>My newsreader is screwed yet again so I'll jump in here.
>Cat I'd be willing to bet that Ed has some of the Keith Code motorcycle

racing

Quoted message said:

>books around. If not they are worth picking up as the physics are

similar

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

>he spends a lot of time on cornering, setting up fast lines, etc...
>Bill C

He came out with a cycling-specific book called _A Gear Higher_. It's
great.

JT

Now, that I'll have to get!

"A Gear Higher" is an excellent book about cornering.
Interestingly, the authors spend very little time talking
about body position, pulling on the bars, or any of the
other things that many people seem to dwell upon - mostly
because they are of minor importance anyway. What the
authors do spend a lot of time on are reading the corner,
judging the conditions, entrance and exit speeds, and
finding the right line - these are the important things.

Here's a quick article by Mark McCormack on the Women's
Cyclist web site about cornering:

http://www.womencyclists.com/article_specific.php?articleID=42

McCormack too talks little about body position or
countersteering, but mainly concentrates on reading the road
conditions and finding the right line.

When I teach cornering at our club's racing clinic, the
three things I stress the most are getting comfortable with
being leaned far from vertical (you can't corner well if you
aren't comfortable in a lean), visualizing the line you want
to follow, and looking ahead and through the turn (instead
of just looking at the road directly in front of you).

One of the best exercises in working on cornering is to
follow directly behind someone who is a good cornerer. When
you follow a good cornerer, matching their speed and keeping
your wheels right in the track of their wheels, it is
amazing how fast and smooth a corner can be.

Mark McMaster
[email hidden]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Cat

Howard Kveck said:

Countersteering is certainly what gets the bike started turning, but I
don't know that I'd really think of the rest of the turn as
countersteering. I think there's some amount of it through the turn (fine
tuning), but on dirt, it also seems to be more about weight distribution
and control of traction (via throttle) to keep the rear wheel out and the
bike carving around the turn. I can't say for sure, since I've never
flattracked. I think Carl took Kenny Roberts' XR100 flattrack school,
though, so he'd be a better one to discuss this. We could learn something
from that.

Agreed. I was thinking of extreme front wheel angles, like this:

http://www.kynoch-douglas-parts.com/html/racing/Alex%20Kynoch%20-%20hard%20slide.htm

Even on dirt, that isn't a practical way to turn on a bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You could never do that on a bicycle,
because it's impossible for the rider to put any power to the
wheel in that position, and anyway the available power to
weight ratio is so much less. The different weight distributions
and power make ideal cornering on bikes and motorbikes
different (so I'm told - I have little experience with
motorcycles).

Quoted message said:

Initiating the turn seems the same to me on both. I think the main
difference is that you can lean a motorcycle further over than a bike
(because of suspension and tires, etc.), but you can lean a bicycle further
over than most people think.

Yeah, I was also thinking that the best line may be different,
because bicycles accelerate only slowly, but on a motorcycle
there is more power to accelerate out of the turn.

Judging turns is a learned skill but hard to verbalize, like
catching a ball or playing a musical instrument. I agree that
following a good cornerer or descender is eye-opening.
However my "Oh [censored]!" reflex usually kicks in somewhere during
the descent ...

"Cat Dailey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I went to a women's cycling clinic this weekend where we spent some time
doing cornering drills. Cornering has always been a weakness of mine and no
one has ever really "taught" me how to corner. I noticed that in initiating
the turn, I push down on my inside hand, which seems to tip the bike into
the turn. When I asked the coach about this, he stated that pushing down on
the inside hand was "old school" turning and that he recommended pulling up
on the outside hand (outside leg is down and weighted in both styles). I
tried his way, which felt really awkward and sort of naturally gravitated
back to my "old school way". With the other pointers that he taught us, my
cornering improved dramatically and I felt really confident in the turns.
Later, another woman asked him about countersteering, which he said was what
I was doing by pushing down on my inside hand and that he could teach her
about it later. So what is the right way to weight the bars, or not? And
is there a consensus on a new, improved way to corner?

Cat

On the advice of a friend who raced for years I picked up Training for
Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to Improved Performance by Davis Phinney
and Connie Carpenter. There's quite a bit on cornering in there, plus
much on setting up your bike properly.

I had a tendency at first to keep my center of gravity too high and
slow too much on corners. I do cornering pretty well now and don't
countersteer or push/pull on bars -- other than keeping my weight
toward the outside, on the outside leg, most force I try to keep off
the arms. I do sometimes drop my knee a little, like you see pro
motorcyclists do, but only as a counterbalance to raising torso a bit
toward vertical. I also am focused on being in a position to sprint
out of the turn, because thats where quite a few attacks happen

In article <41588332$1@darkstar>, Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Judging turns is a learned skill but hard to verbalize, like
catching a ball or playing a musical instrument. I agree that
following a good cornerer or descender is eye-opening.
However my "Oh [censored]!" reflex usually kicks in somewhere during
the descent ...

I always thought of that as the "If I get hurt, I don't work" factor. It
usually seems to start kicking in sometime after college, or thereabouts.
I'm glad that that doesn't seem to enter into it when I ride a bike.
Skateboards and stuff like that is a different story, however.

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Kenny said:

Let me get this straight: so you actually learned how to take a turn
on a racing bicycle? I must say i'm stunned.

Don't worry. If you practice you will soon learn too.

what's there to learn about taking a turn??

Kenny

Kenny schreef:

Quoted message said:

"what's there to learn about taking a turn??

Kenny,

You might consider that
- in a country where many people take up cycling/racing at a later age than here, generally
- and where much grassroots racing happens compact on small laps.
seriousness about technique is quite logical.

I also read in a diary from a US rider racing here that he always won places while cornering. So maybe a little
less bragging might be in order.