Continuously-variable transmission box in Honda MTB

"Van Bagnol" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?

Van
--
Van Bagnol / v b a g n o l at earthlink dot net / c r l at bagnol dot com
...enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
...feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
...thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct

It"

looks heavier than a regular drivetrain

Michael

Michael Paul said:

"Van Bagnol" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?

looks heavier than a regular drivetrain

Michael

Downhill rigs looking more and more like motorcross every year.... sure does
look heavy.

A few car manufacturers have made models with CVT boxes over the years, i
think DAF was the first, but they were riddled with problems, related to
belt slippage and the requirement for very frequent maintainance and such
things. I think i read that Audi have made a CVT system which eliminates
belts so maybe things are improving, Even so, i suspect that Honda bike
wouldn't be good for much more than race runs, wouldn't go for long without
maintenance i bet.

Did anyone read about the technicalities of the Honda box? Is it belt/roller
or some sort of expanding sprocket and chain?

--
Mark

Van Bagnol said:

Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?

Van

Read it at the library. Looks fat and inefficient (I should know).
Hopeless concept as an XC bike. Chain drive is just too efficient.

Shawn

On Wed, 12 May 2004 17:08:24 +0100, "Mark \(UK\)"

may have said:

Michael Paul said:

"Van Bagnol" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?

looks heavier than a regular drivetrain

Michael

A few car manufacturers have made models with CVT boxes over the years, i
think DAF was the first, but they were riddled with problems, related to
belt slippage and the requirement for very frequent maintainance and such
things. I think i read that Audi have made a CVT system which eliminates
belts so maybe things are improving,

If Audi's making it, don't expect it to be worth owning. They've had
to go over to a 100,000-mile drivetrain warranty just to get people to
buy their cars in the US, and their resale value on out-of-warranty
units still isn't as high proportionately as most other makes. The
only car that depreciates faster, in my experience, is Daewoo...and
that's because GM took Daewoo off the North American market.

Quoted message said:

Even so, i suspect that Honda bike
wouldn't be good for much more than race runs, wouldn't go for long without
maintenance i bet.

Honda probably figures that there's a market for wierd and unusual
tech. I suspect that they will not sell many.

Quoted message said:

Did anyone read about the technicalities of the Honda box? Is it belt/roller
or some sort of expanding sprocket and chain?

Only the former works in practice; variable-diameter pulleys drive a
heavy belt. Sliding-cone-drive setups have been tried in the lab, and
they always cause some fool at Popular Mechanics to write it up as The
Next Really Great Thing That Will Be In Every Car In A Few Years.
Oddly enough, they never make it to market. CVTs of the belt type are
common in ATVs and LPCs (light personnel carriers; a glorified term
for "golf cart"😉 and are regarded and durable and reliable in most
applications there. I don't know how Honda has adapted the concept to
the relatively low velocities of a bicycle, but apparently they must
have done so.

Here's a picture of the bike:

http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 17:08:24 +0100, "Mark \(UK\)"

may have said:

Michael Paul said:

"Van Bagnol" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
> Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?
>
looks heavier than a regular drivetrain

Quoted message said:

Even so, i suspect that Honda bike
wouldn't be good for much more than race runs, wouldn't go for long without
maintenance i bet.

Honda probably figures that there's a market for wierd and unusual
tech. I suspect that they will not sell many.

Honda sometimes like to be the Sony of the vehicle market.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did anyone read about the technicalities of the Honda box? Is it belt/roller
or some sort of expanding sprocket and chain?

Only the former works in practice; variable-diameter pulleys drive a
heavy belt. Sliding-cone-drive setups have been tried in the lab, and
they always cause some fool at Popular Mechanics to write it up as The
Next Really Great Thing That Will Be In Every Car In A Few Years.
Oddly enough, they never make it to market. CVTs of the belt type are
common in ATVs and LPCs (light personnel carriers; a glorified term
for "golf cart"😉 and are regarded and durable and reliable in most
applications there. I don't know how Honda has adapted the concept to
the relatively low velocities of a bicycle, but apparently they must
have done so.

Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.
--
Mark South
Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>

On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:00:02 +0200, "Mark South"

may have said:

Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.

I'd have argued that myself if it wasn't for the fact that it appears
that Honda may have come up with a kluge that at least permits the
bike to move forward. How well it works is, of course unanswered, and
I am skeptical about that subject. Even if they have made it work
reasonably acceptably, though, I don't see it displacing the der
setup anytime soon, since I can't see any way for it to be as
efficient...and the limiting factor in bike performance is the
powerplant, so drivetrain losses just aren't going to be tolerable to
a lot of folks.

The photo of the Honda bicycle shows a unit that bears more than a
passing resemblance to a motorcycle. I doubt that this is mere
coincidence. OTOH, as far as I can see, Honda doesn't have any
marketing channels set up to get this to the places where it might
sell if it really is a worthwhile piece of tech. In my opinion, that
fact is a big hint that this is a showcase item with no mass
production planned. Honda-branded bikes are sold at K-Mart, however
as far as I know those are strictly pasted-on-label units rather than
a product that actually emerged from Honda's plants. A bike with a
CVT would not be a logical thing to market through KMart unless it was
going to be *really* cheap.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:18:43 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here's a picture of the bike:

http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html

Dear Werehatrack,

What I really like about this is the profile of the Japanese rider,
which gives the five essentials that we bicycling enthusiasts all want
to know:

1) Birthday
2) Place of birth
3) Height
4) Weight
5) Blood type

Is Japanese bicycling fiercer and bloodier than I've been led to
believe? Are battlefield transfusions common? Do blood type A riders
have a secret haemoglobin advantage over type O?

Carl Fogel

Werehatrack said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:00:02 +0200, "Mark South"

may have said:

Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.

I'd have argued that myself if it wasn't for the fact that it appears
that Honda may have come up with a kluge that at least permits the
bike to move forward. How well it works is, of course unanswered, and
I am skeptical about that subject. Even if they have made it work
reasonably acceptably, though, I don't see it displacing the der
setup anytime soon, since I can't see any way for it to be as
efficient...and the limiting factor in bike performance is the
powerplant, so drivetrain losses just aren't going to be tolerable to
a lot of folks.

The photo of the Honda bicycle shows a unit that bears more than a
passing resemblance to a motorcycle. I doubt that this is mere
coincidence. OTOH, as far as I can see, Honda doesn't have any
marketing channels set up to get this to the places where it might
sell if it really is a worthwhile piece of tech. In my opinion, that
fact is a big hint that this is a showcase item with no mass
production planned. Honda-branded bikes are sold at K-Mart, however
as far as I know those are strictly pasted-on-label units rather than
a product that actually emerged from Honda's plants. A bike with a
CVT would not be a logical thing to market through KMart unless it was
going to be *really* cheap.

Dear Werehatrack,

Honda does like to try new technology. They once showed off a fluid
drive small-motorcycle transmission.

But weren't there a lot of power-generator, lawn-mower, and car
dealers who thought that the Honda motorcycle company had no marketing
channels?

Carl Fogel

"Mark South" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.

Belts can be done, but only if you include a Rohloff SpeedHub. And maybe a
Mountain Drive BB.

http://www.rohloff.de
http://www.schlumpf.ch/md_engl.htm

pete

Shawn Curry said:

Looks fat and inefficient (I should know).
Hopeless concept as an XC bike. Chain drive is just too efficient.

You miss the point. It was not an exercise intended to result in a
better bicycle, it was an exercise intended to result in better motor
company engineers.

That said, derailleur systems are primitive, unreliable, inelegant
junk that owe their existence to the fact that they are cheap as dirt
to manufacture. If Brand S had invested the kind of engineering
resources in, say, internal gear hubs that they have sunk into
prolonging the heyday of derailleur systems, we'd already have better
options available.

Any motor vehicle drivetrain, for example, that did as thorough a job
of rapid self-destruction as a bike derailleur system would go down in
legend as a laughingstock. The fact that most derialleur bikes are
toys or fetish objects rather than regular transportation allows the
continued prevalence of multi-speed transmissions that self-digest in
a few thousand miles and demand constant maintenance.

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

Shawn Curry said:

Looks fat and inefficient (I should know).
Hopeless concept as an XC bike. Chain drive is just too efficient.

You miss the point. It was not an exercise intended to result in a
better bicycle, it was an exercise intended to result in better motor
company engineers.

I was stating facts, not making a "point". Nevertheless, I think you
missed the point. It was an exercise to improve the bottom line, to
show off Honda to a crowd that thinks SUV and Subaru.

Quoted message said:

That said, derailleur systems are primitive, unreliable, inelegant
junk that owe their existence to the fact that they are cheap as dirt
to manufacture. If Brand S had invested the kind of engineering
resources in, say, internal gear hubs that they have sunk into
prolonging the heyday of derailleur systems, we'd already have better
options available.

Any motor vehicle drivetrain, for example, that did as thorough a job
of rapid self-destruction as a bike derailleur system would go down in
legend as a laughingstock. The fact that most derialleur bikes are
toys or fetish objects rather than regular transportation allows the
continued prevalence of multi-speed transmissions that self-digest in
a few thousand miles and demand constant maintenance.

Chalo Colina

I think most consumers and manufacturers look at it differently. The
wildly enthusiastic commuter might ride a dozen miles each way to work
etc. 120 miles a week, 6000 miles/yr (remember, this is a very skewed
population on these NGs). Oil the chain twice a month and replace the
derailleurs, chain, etc twice a year. $300/year (you're not gonna buy
new XTR replacement parts are you?). Big deal. A VERY efficient car
would cost that much in gas alone. If they're like a lot of us they buy
a new bike every few years. They're super hot ride from three years ago
gets relegated to commuter status. The cost of acquiring the bike
itself only amounts to the lost sale value of the outdated bike (I'm not
considering the Seven Duo crowd here). S/he's saving big bucks! The
market pressure to develop a new efficient transmission just isn't
there. I commuted on a fixie quite a few years ago-costs even less. :-)

Shawn

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:18:43 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here's a picture of the bike:

http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html

Dear Werehatrack,

What I really like about this is the profile of the Japanese rider,
which gives the five essentials that we bicycling enthusiasts all want
to know:

1) Birthday
2) Place of birth
3) Height
4) Weight
5) Blood type

Is Japanese bicycling fiercer and bloodier than I've been led to
believe? Are battlefield transfusions common? Do blood type A riders
have a secret haemoglobin advantage over type O?

Carl Fogel

I noticed that too, and it made me laugh.
It reads exactly like a Japanese fighting videogame, like Tekken, where the
characters are identified in just the same way, including the blood group. I
wonder if the videogame cliche came first, or if it's based on an actual
practice in sports. ? I guess it's good to know.

Philip

Philip Williamson said:

It reads exactly like a Japanese fighting videogame, like Tekken, where the
characters are identified in just the same way, including the blood group. I
wonder if the videogame cliche came first, or if it's based on an actual
practice in sports. ? I guess it's good to know.

Horoscope-style prediction based on blood type is a popular supersition in
Japan. It's the equivalent of listing someone's star sign in Western
culture.

I suppose it is marginally less ridiculous in that blood type is actually
a physical property of the person in question.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Quoted message said:

Oil the chain twice a month and replace the
derailleurs, chain, etc twice a year.

I agree with Chalo here. Can you imagine telling "Suzie SUV" she has to oil
her drivetrain every other week, and would have to replace her transmission
every oil change?

I and almost everyone I know carries a chain tool out of necessity.

Compared to automobiles and almost all other vehicles, bicycle drivetrains
are [censored].

Werehatrack said:

Even if they have made it work
reasonably acceptably, though, I don't see it displacing the der
setup anytime soon, since I can't see any way for it to be as
efficient...and the limiting factor in bike performance is the
powerplant, so drivetrain losses just aren't going to be tolerable to
a lot of folks.

Honda haven't published drivetrain losses for the CVT box, but I imagine it
would operate something like a seamless Sturmey Archer hub. You'd always be
pedalling at the right cadence which is going to help efficiency, the
transmission can be protected from [censored] and dirt, and you're not dragging
the chain through funny angles and idler gears on a derailleur. Might
actually be more efficient. It looks as if there's still a chain doing the
actual drive from the cranks to the back wheel. That said, they're racing it
as a DH bike, so pedalling might not be *that* important.

John Harlow said:

Quoted message said:

Oil the chain twice a month and replace the
derailleurs, chain, etc twice a year.

I agree with Chalo here. Can you imagine telling "Suzie SUV" she has to oil
her drivetrain every other week, and would have to replace her transmission
every oil change?

When was the last time you heard "Suzie SUV" say "I'm not going to
commute by bike, there's too much maintenance involved." LOL
You may get SS there to commute two miles on a cruiser now and then.
Oil the chain once a year (Biff Bimmer can handle that).

Quoted message said:

I and almost everyone I know carries a chain tool out of necessity.

For Commuting?

ok post the article.

"Philip Williamson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
[...]

Quoted message said:

I noticed that too, and it made me laugh.
It reads exactly like a Japanese fighting videogame, like Tekken, where the
characters are identified in just the same way, including the blood group. I
wonder if the videogame cliche came first, or if it's based on an actual
practice in sports. ? I guess it's good to know.

Philip

I belive the Japanese view blood group the same way other people view
atrological signs. People with certain blood groups or signs are
supposed to have certain characteristics.

Dave
www.davewilson.cc

(g.daniels) said:

ok post the article.

Dear Gene,

If you're asking where the blood-type of the racer is mentioned, it's
near the bottom of the web page about the CVT Honda bicycle:

http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html

If you're asking for an article about this curious Japanese
horoscope-like belief in blood types, here's an example:

http://allsands.com/Health/bloodtypeperso_zud_gn.htm

David Damerell seems to be dead right about this odd blood-type
notion.

After pondering the matter, I've decided that I prefer the traditional
inanity of a horoscope, since I can remember my birthday, but long ago
forgot my blood type.

Carl Fogel