CONTE's proposal to Pound: more testing on top athletes.

[Crankyfeet]

Did Pietro Mennea not attempt the 200/400 combo at the Olympics (1980)?
Maybe it was 100/200m combo??
Of course, Wells won 100m at Moscow.

I don't think anyone attempted it before Johnson because the 200 finals and 400 heats were held concurrently prior to 1996.


Wells may not have placed in 1980 if the US were there.

 

[Gregers]

Cranky is right. The Olypmpic schedule used to prevent anybody attempting the double. Mennea edged out Wells for Gold in the 200 at Moscow. You are probably mixing up the individual 400 with the relay, where Mennea anchored the Italian quartet to Bronze. If memory isn't completely shot I think that he ran the fastest split in something like 43.6. He also ran in the final round of the 4x100 so yes, he featured in all 3 sprint distances. Of course, it helped that he was chemically assisted but that doesn't quite negate the fact that he was a great athlete with a wide range. With the exception of Calvin Smith, he was the last of the slightly built sprinters before that body type was swept away by the super-drugged behemoths of the 90's and beyond.

Did Pietro Mennea not attempt the 200/400 combo at the Olympics (1980)?
Maybe it was 100/200m combo??
Of course, Wells won 100m at Moscow.

 

[limerickman]

Where I was in the early nineties, we couldn't get telecasts of the GT's. What was your impression of Big Mig, Lim? He was regarded like a superman where I was at the time. Unbelievable Heart/lung/VO2 max numbers. Did he have a good team around him? Or did he have to do most of the climbing work himself? How did he fair in the team TT usually? His Banesto team-mates would have struggled to keep up in the TTT no doubt, and they wouldn't have been able to afford him doing most of the dragging.

How come it took him six years to do better than tenth in the TdF and then he was unbeatable it seemed? I respect the fact that he won the Giro in 92 and 93?? as well as the TdF. Don't see that happening today.

Impressions of Indurain?
In a word : Superhuman.
He was a big cyclist - not only physiclly big on the bike but just big in every sense of the word.
Heart rate 39bpm, lung capacity 8 litre + : for a big guy though his cadence was smooth, far smoother than other big riders like Ullrich for example.
Lovely pedal stroke when rolling along - when TT'ing he could push a massive gear (54 x 11).

Indurains team around him were workers - guys like Gerard Rue, a great climbing domestique.
But the Banesto boys always sat in the pack - there was none of this riding at the front, that wasn't Banesto's way.
They'd sit in the pack around Indurain, and guard him.
You've got to remember when indurain was in his pomp, he had Rominger/Zulle/Jalabert/Pantani and Riis to contend with.
I reckon that the 90's and late 80's had the most competitive peloton : these guys were all sitting there watching each other.
Inevitably, Pantani or Virenque would attack in the mountains and BigMig would have to go after them (without help from his team).

I was fortunate to see him cycling in live at the 1995 TDF : chasing after MP at D'Huez and Guize Neige.
Pantani flew and Indurain chasing (though not closing the gap) was blasting up the mountains with Zulle/Jalabert/Rominger trying to stay with him (Indurain).
The weather was so warm, his jersey was stuck to his body and you could see his ribcage opening and closing as he gulped in huge amounts of air as he pedalled after Pantani.
Thing was his body was rock still - only the legs and ribcage moved.
Also he was on the drops going up the mountain, after Pantani!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've never seen anything like it.

Incidentally, as I tend to do, I stayed in the same spot and stayed there until the entire field came up the mountain.
On both stages the field was smashed to pieces by MP.
I watched them all ride by : MP, followed by Indurain and way down the field was Armstrong.
Armstrong was dead - he was way down the field - eyes dead in his head.
Riders get that look when they're in the sump and Armstrong along with the rest of the field where in sump on both days in the Alps.

Banesto weren't the best TTT'ers : they'd alway finish in the top half dozen but I can't recall them winning a TTT in Indurains era.
Got to remember though Inudrain would destory the field in the ITT.
And I think coupled with having the best GT team manager of all time - Echavarria - made Indurain a master tactician and very hard to beat once the ITT results were in.

Why did it take him 6 yrs?
Got to remember that the guy was a domestique to Delgado from 1984-1989 at Reynolds/Banesto.
Indurains class was apparent early on though - entered, rode and finished his first GT (Vuelta) and picked up a couple of stage wins as well.
1992/93 was a super season : four GT wins, double/double.
Superb.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Well written Lim and brings back great memories...... reminds of those days when I race home from school go out on the bike for an hour then back in time to watch the nightly TDF highlights on SBS at 6pm.... the next day I was Indurain but no matter what I did my body would rock on the mountains (well hills).... I do remember Jean Francois Bernard* who was once seen as the heir apparent to Fignon and Hinault become domestique for Indurian with great success...... 91 Alp d'Huez comes to mind.....

* http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x30lnv_jeanfrancois-bernard-sean-kelly_sport - speaking French drinking Kronenberg with Sean Kelly..... didn't realise Kelly was such a pisshead !

Impressions of Indurain?
In a word : Superhuman.
He was a big cyclist - not only physiclly big on the bike but just big in every sense of the word.
Heart rate 39bpm, lung capacity 8 litre + : for a big guy though his cadence was smooth, far smoother than other big riders like Ullrich for example.
Loveas on the drops going up the mountain, after Pantani!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've never seen anything like it.

Incidentally, as I tend to do, I stayed in the same spot and stayed there until the entire field came up the mountain.
On bcoupled with having the best GT team manager of all time - Echavarria - made Indurain a master tactician and very hard to beat once the ITT resultlds/Banesto.
Indurains class was apparent early on though - entered, rode and finished his first GT (Vuelta) and picked up a couple of stage wins as well.
1992/93 was a super season : four GT wins, double/double.
Superb.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Lim here is the stage: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xk4lh_marco-pantani - complete with Indurain on the drops and Pantani going nuts up ahead...

Impressions of Indurain?

I was fortunate to see him cycling in live at the 1995 TDF : chasing after MP at D'Huez and Guize Neige.
Pantani flew and Indurain chasing (though not closing the gap) was blasting up the mountains with Zulle/Jalabert/Rominger trying to stay with him (Indurain).
The weather was so warm, his jersey was stuck to his body and you could see his ribcage opening and closing as he gulped in huge amounts of air as he pedalled after Pantani.
Thing was his body was rock still - only the legs and ribcage moved.
Also he was on the drops going up the mountain, after Pantani!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've never seen anything like it.
Superb.

 

[limerickman]

Well written Lim and brings back great memories...... reminds of those days when I race home from school go out on the bike for an hour then back in time to watch the nightly TDF highlights on SBS at 6pm.... the next day I was Indurain but no matter what I did my body would rock on the mountains (well hills).... I do remember Jean Francois Bernard* who was once seen as the heir apparent to Fignon and Hinault become domestique for Indurian with great success...... 91 Alp d'Huez comes to mind.....

* http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x30lnv_jeanfrancois-bernard-sean-kelly_sport - speaking French drinking Kronenberg with Sean Kelly..... didn't realise Kelly was such a pisshead !

Of course, Jeff Bernard, how could I forget?
Didn't we all think that we were Indurain?
What was really impressive was how he used the drops on the climbs : I remember Rominger in 1993, attacking and attacking Indurain and Indurain was impassive : dark shades, pedalling away, hands on drops, no sense of panic.
And Rominger fought really well in that TDF - he was KOM that year, i think.

Memories.
Thanks for the link BTW.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Impressions of Indurain?
In a word : Superhuman.
He was a big cyclist - not only physiclly big on the bike but just big in every sense of the word.
Heart rate 39bpm, lung capacity 8 litre + : for a big guy though his cadence was smooth, far smoother than other big riders like Ullrich for example.
Lovely pedal stroke when rolling along - when TT'ing he could push a massive gear (54 x 11).

Indurains team around him were workers - guys like Gerard Rue, a great climbing domestique.
But the Banesto boys always sat in the pack - there was none of this riding at the front, that wasn't Banesto's way.
They'd sit in the pack around Indurain, and guard him.
You've got to remember when indurain was in his pomp, he had Rominger/Zulle/Jalabert/Pantani and Riis to contend with.
I reckon that the 90's and late 80's had the most competitive peloton : these guys were all sitting there watching each other.
Inevitably, Pantani or Virenque would attack in the mountains and BigMig would have to go after them (without help from his team).

I was fortunate to see him cycling in live at the 1995 TDF : chasing after MP at D'Huez and Guize Neige.
Pantani flew and Indurain chasing (though not closing the gap) was blasting up the mountains with Zulle/Jalabert/Rominger trying to stay with him (Indurain).
The weather was so warm, his jersey was stuck to his body and you could see his ribcage opening and closing as he gulped in huge amounts of air as he pedalled after Pantani.
Thing was his body was rock still - only the legs and ribcage moved.
Also he was on the drops going up the mountain, after Pantani!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've never seen anything like it.

Incidentally, as I tend to do, I stayed in the same spot and stayed there until the entire field came up the mountain.
On both stages the field was smashed to pieces by MP.
I watched them all ride by : MP, followed by Indurain and way down the field was Armstrong.
Armstrong was dead - he was way down the field - eyes dead in his head.
Riders get that look when they're in the sump and Armstrong along with the rest of the field where in sump on both days in the Alps.

Banesto weren't the best TTT'ers : they'd alway finish in the top half dozen but I can't recall them winning a TTT in Indurains era.
Got to remember though Inudrain would destory the field in the ITT.
And I think coupled with having the best GT team manager of all time - Echavarria - made Indurain a master tactician and very hard to beat once the ITT results were in.

Why did it take him 6 yrs?
Got to remember that the guy was a domestique to Delgado from 1984-1989 at Reynolds/Banesto.
Indurains class was apparent early on though - entered, rode and finished his first GT (Vuelta) and picked up a couple of stage wins as well.
1992/93 was a super season : four GT wins, double/double.
Superb.

Great summary. Thanks Lim. I regret not being able to see him ride.

I have never witnessed a GT live at the race. From your description it sounds like its worth it.

 

[thunder]

Armstrong died in the r/race at Atlanta : I remember that race well : Pascal Richard winning from Sciandri and Gianetti.

Actually the Atlanta Games TT was a great race : BigMig won that TT - America had never heard of him!
Indurain beat Boardman : Samaranch himself insisted on presenting the gold medal to BigMig.

Ironic that only three weeks earlier Ullrich won the TDF TT with a stupendous win beating BigMig in to second place by 50 seconds at St Emilion.
Ullrich decided to skip Atlanta 96.

Stapleton was talking, re: 2000.

But the context still has relevance.

 

[Bro Deal]

Where I was in the early nineties, we couldn't get telecasts of the GT's. What was your impression of Big Mig, Lim? He was regarded like a superman where I was at the time. Unbelievable Heart/lung/VO2 max numbers. Did he have a good team around him? Or did he have to do most of the climbing work himself? How did he fair in the team TT usually? His Banesto team-mates would have struggled to keep up in the TTT no doubt, and they wouldn't have been able to afford him doing most of the dragging.

How come it took him six years to do better than tenth in the TdF and then he was unbeatable it seemed? I respect the fact that he won the Giro in 92 and 93?? as well as the TdF. Don't see that happening today.

What I remember most about Indurain is the time trial in the 1992 TdF where he beat all the other riders by at least three minutes and most contenders by about four minutes. Lemond, who just a a year to two years ago was the best time trialist in the world, was more than four minutes back. Indurain caught and passed Fignon, who has started six minutes before him. That's when I sat up and said, "********!" Indurain's excuse for his increase in TdF performance (weight loss, which would have no effect on time trialing performance) was so ludicrous it changed my view of the sport forever.

 

[limerickman]

What I remember most about Indurain is the time trial in the 1992 TdF where he beat all the other riders by at least three minutes and most contenders by about four minutes. Lemond, who just a a year to two years ago was the best time trialist in the world, was more than four minutes back. Indurain caught and passed Fignon, who has started six minutes before him. That's when I sat up and said, "********!" Indurain's excuse for his increase in TdF performance (weight loss, which would have no effect on time trialing performance) was so ludicrous it changed my view of the sport forever.

Luxembourg TT was phenomenal.

Indurain obliterated the field.
In respect of LeMond in 1992, you've got to remember that he wasn't at his 1989/1990 level and Fignon retired in 1993.
Still this doesn't quantify how Indurain managed to literally smash the field to pieces. (and remember Indurain had just completed his first giro win 4 weeks previously).
That TT is notable for the re-emergence of Charly Gaul from seclusion - who on witnessing Indurain said that he (Indurain) had brought back the beauty of cycling to him (Gaul).
Not sure that I would go quite that far, Charly!

Indurains 1994 TDF TT was phenomenal too.
He literally rode the field in to the ground.

 

[wolfix]

Impressions of Indurain?

You've got to remember when indurain was in his pomp, he had Rominger/Zulle/Jalabert/Pantani and Riis to contend with.
I reckon that the 90's and late 80's had the most competitive peloton : these guys were all sitting there watching each other.

I think the mid late 80's and 90's to be the least competitive time for champion GT riders. Other then Indurain we don't see champions battling each other as we see in other eras. It was weak with champions. The peloton in the one day races was a different matter.

The 80's had Lemond,Hinault, Fignon and fighting over the yellow. At the turn of the century we have Armstrong and JU going at it. All great riders.

Rominger, Zulle, Pantani, and Jalabert [GT's only] was not in any of these guys class as GT riders. Great riders, but not champions as Indurain, Lemond, Hinault, Fignon, Armstrong and JU.

 

[thunder]

I think the mid late 80's and 90's to be the least competitive time for champion GT riders. Other then Indurain we don't see champions battling each other as we see in other eras. It was weak with champions. The peloton in the one day races was a different matter.

The 80's had Lemond,Hinault, Fignon and fighting over the yellow. At the turn of the century we have Armstrong and JU going at it. All great riders.

Rominger, Zulle, Pantani, and Jalabert [GT's only] was not in any of these guys class as GT riders. Great riders, but not champions as Indurain, Lemond, Hinault, Fignon, Armstrong and JU.

take away the dope, the champions are not so dominant, the down times can takeaway a GT classification hope.

takeaway the dope, no domestiques on the second last HC climb on the queen stage, they get dropped, then you have some excitment in the last 2 hours, on those 2 HC climbs

 

[wolfix]

take away the dope, the champions are not so dominant, the down times can takeaway a GT classification hope.

takeaway the dope, no domestiques on the second last HC climb on the queen stage, they get dropped, then you have some excitment in the last 2 hours, on those 2 HC climbs

Doped or no doped, a champion with legs always dominates. This forum has become obsessed with doping. That is just a small part of the racing. Sonme champions had it, others that were gifted did not did not.
Second guessing what could be without the dope is nothing but cycling masturbation. Dope was part of the peloton forever.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Second guessing what could be without the dope is nothing but cycling masturbation.

What's wrong with masturbation Wolfy? You got something against it?

 

[wolfix]

What's wrong with masturbation Wolfy? You got something against it?

Hell no.......... If I would have stayed home back in 1975 and spent the evening with a June centerfold instead of going out with that big breasted blonde cheerleader........
Well...let's just say this...... I would have been retired at the age of 45.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Hell no.......... If I would have stayed home back in 1975 and spent the evening with a June centerfold instead of going out with that big breasted blonde cheerleader........
Well...let's just say this...... I would have been retired at the age of 45.

LOL. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[limerickman]

I think the mid late 80's and 90's to be the least competitive time for champion GT riders. Other then Indurain we don't see champions battling each other as we see in other eras. It was weak with champions. The peloton in the one day races was a different matter.

The 80's had Lemond,Hinault, Fignon and fighting over the yellow. At the turn of the century we have Armstrong and JU going at it. All great riders.

Rominger, Zulle, Pantani, and Jalabert [GT's only] was not in any of these guys class as GT riders. Great riders, but not champions as Indurain, Lemond, Hinault, Fignon, Armstrong and JU.

I think that you do guys like Rominger (triple Vuelta winner), Jalabert (Vuelta winner, TDF points jersey winner), Zulle (Vuelta winner, podium TDF), Riis and Pantani a disservice by saying that indurain had no opposition to battle against.
Those guys are a pretty select field.
Granted i think the 80's were more competitive (Hinault, Fignon, Delgado, Kelly, Anderson, Roche, Moser, Raas, Zootemelk, Knetteman, Rooks, Breukink).

Have a good holiday.

(hey and leave that cheerleader alone!).

 

[wolfix]

I think that you do guys like Rominger (triple Vuelta winner), Jalabert (Vuelta winner, TDF points jersey winner), Zulle (Vuelta winner, podium TDF), Riis and Pantani a disservice by saying that indurain had no opposition to battle against.
Those guys are a pretty select field.
Granted i think the 80's were more competitive (Hinault, Fignon, Delgado, Kelly, Anderson, Roche, Moser, Raas, Zootemelk, Knetteman, Rooks, Breukink).

Those guys were very good riders. Excellent racers. But I think Indurain was way above them in a GT. In Hinaults case we see Lemond challenging him in a very serious way. Fignon challenging Lemond.....etc, etc,
We saw JU challenging Armstrong at all times. .

One of the reasons we see more dominant racers in the 70's and early 80's was because the team structure was different then today. Back then most teams seasons were devoted to one rider. Today we do not see that as often. Now we see teams with more of a diverse team and several leaders. I prefer the old way where riders were expected to ride all season and win.

 

[limerickman]

I prefer the old way where riders were expected to ride all season and win.

I do too!

I'd love to see guys today riding more races than they do : specialisation may be what the team manager/owners demand but as a fan, I want to see the top men ride as many races as feasible.
It is a pity that the likes of ullrich, Armstrong and co, did not race more races in the calendar.
I know that the TDF was priority for them - but as a fan i would have liked to have seen them ride more races during the season.

 

[wolfix]

I do too!

I'd love to see guys today riding more races than they do : specialisation may be what the team manager/owners demand but as a fan, I want to see the top men ride as many races as feasible.
It is a pity that the likes of ullrich, Armstrong and co, did not race more races in the calendar.
I know that the TDF was priority for them - but as a fan i would have liked to have seen them ride more races during the season.

Specialization made the sport less interesting if you ask me. It started with Lemond, it was no secret the only thing that mattered to Greg was the TDF. But at least he rode other races to win. Then Indurain made the practice acceptable. He rode a few other races , but his Vuelta's DNF's show he was looking at the TDF with total focus.
Then Armstrong came along and perfected the one race season. And as competitive as cycling has become with more countries showing interest, that is what it may take to be a TDF winner.