components for the safety minded cyclist

I'm replacing the old stem with the Cinelli "Frog" stem.
Quill type (1" threaded forks) with the retaining cap
mounted on _top_ of the stem with three, not just two bolts.
So the body of the stem, not the retaining cap, bears the
rider's weight.

This, IMO, is a vastly superior design. + It has gotten
nothing but rave reviews as well for it's light weight and
stiffness.

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Kyle.B.H said:

Some examples: Salsa's cromo SUL stems. Avoiding things
like titanium BB and pedal spindles.

Hold on! For the very first time I recently allowed myself a
(used) titanium BB spindle and I noticed a very queer (to
me) localized failure. So localized that it must have
happened after a rather short useful life.

Have I witnessed something well known and common, or have I
just been unlucky?

Sergio Pisa

Cinelli Giro d'Italia handlebars. Think they weigh more than
300g, but they have a reinforcing sleeve around the clamping
area that, according to others, prevents scratching and
scoring on the main structural part of the bar, which could
lead to stress risers.

However, they're of the old cinelli 26.4mm clamp
diameter, and require a matching stem like the Cinelli 1A
or XA quills. Don't know if a Frog would fit? I use
Giros/XAs on both my bikes, numerous re-installations
etc, never any problems.

hope it helps.

Song

Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Kyle.B.H said:

Some examples: Salsa's cromo SUL stems. Avoiding things
like titanium BB and pedal spindles.

Hold on! For the very first time I recently allowed myself
a (used) titanium BB spindle and I noticed a very queer
(to me) localized failure. So localized that it must have
happened after a rather short useful life.

Have I witnessed something well known and common, or have
I just been unlucky?

Sergio Pisa

Dear Sergio,

It's well-known--but only to those who know well.

The rest of us have to track it down in threads like
this, where Andrew Muzi patiently explained it to Rick
Gamble and me:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
ednTRbgb8yhV-iRVn-iQ%40comcast.com

tinyurl.comyujtrOpen ↗

Briefly, titanium ain't steel. (Andrew puts it more nicely
and in much more detail.)

Carl Fogel

Kyle.B.H said:

I've been following several recent posts concerning broken
stems and handlebars, and decided that while the
possibilities may be remote, these examples represent
failures that I'd like to not happen to me in the next 40+
years of riding bicycles. I have a handmade steel frame
with a steel fork and steel steerer, and now that I think
of it, it seems foolish to ride a stem and handlebar that
were conceived with light weight and aesthetics as the
primary design considerations (... a 235 gram handlebar on
a 22 lb bike!). In fact, its difficult to avoid such
componentry these days. So I'd like to solicit some
recommendations on the most failure proof components that
belong to the class of "if they failed on you, it could be
really bad" (stems, bars). Granted, the complete failure of
most components could be a really bad thing, but the
failure of certain ones are more within the realm of
possibility than others.

Some examples:

Salsa's cromo SUL stems. Avoiding things like titanium BB
and pedal spindles.

others?

Thx,

Kyle

Just because a stem is welded CrMo doesn't mean it's a long-
lasting stem. And just because a stem is forged aluminum
doesn't mean the bolts aren't the weak spot.
sheldonbrown.comstemtesting.htmOpen ↗
biketechreview.comstems.htmOpen ↗

As stated above stay away from the more exotic materials ,
but bars & stems of any type fatigue with age. If you use
them "hard" your best insurance is to replace them very few
years. Nothing on a bicycle is mint to last forever. Even
the best steel frames will brake over time.

(Evan Evans) said:

As stated above stay away from the more exotic materials ,
but bars & stems of any type fatigue with age. If you use
them "hard" your best insurance is to replace them very
few years.

There's no way to predict when it is the right time to
replace such components. Basically for the sake of safety,
it's best to avoid stoopid lite stuff.

As far as bars and stems go, I prefer Nitto 175s (now out of
production, and a damned shame as they were the most
comfortable bar ever made. All the modern post-STI/Ergo bars
have too little reach for guys with ham-sized hands. The
175s were perfect [for me] with Ergo levers, and very good
with any other levers) and Nitto Technomic or Pearl stems.
Not light but cold-forged and very reliable. I've never
heard of one breaking.

"Kyle.B.H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<wh_4c.11672$po.165583@attbi_s52>... <snip> So

Quoted message said:

I'd like to solicit some recommendations on the most
failure proof components that belong to the class of "if
they failed on you, it could be really bad" (stems, bars).

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Nitto handlebars and stem, like I have on my 'cross bike:
pacifier.comphoto 7.htmlOpen ↗

I'm 6-foot-4, 220 pounds (eek!). I'd have no problem beating
the heck out of the Nitto bars and stem, if only I could get
rid of this respiratory glop that's plagued me this winter.

Rivendell sells a bunch of the Nitto stuff:
rivendellbicycles.comrivendellbicycles.comOpen ↗ as does Sheldon: w-w-Open ↗
ww.sheldonbrown.com/harris/handlebars.html#handlebarsdrop
but any shop should be able to get you what you want through
the QBP catalog: harriscyclery.netpage.cfmOpen ↗
eID=49&Category=1306 harriscyclery.netpage.cfmOpen ↗
?PageID=49&Category=1877

Jeff

Tim McNamara said:

(Evan Evans) said:

As stated above stay away from the more exotic materials
, but bars & stems of any type fatigue with age. If you
use them "hard" your best insurance is to replace them
very few years.

There's no way to predict when it is the right time to
replace such components. Basically for the sake of safety,
it's best to avoid stoopid lite stuff.

Thist seems sensible, but if you read that stem test you'd
see it isn't so. Not knowing anything ahead of time, my
"conservative" choice would probably be the TIG welded
Profile. However, the polished titanium Holland, second
lightest in the test, won by a country mile.

I once saw a similar test of MTB handlebars, where the
winner was an ultralight Klein carbon fiber one, by a
similar margin. No steel bars in that test, though...

It all comes depends on design -- intelligent design based
on science and testing, by people with the right kind of
training (engineers). The old machinist's/mechanic's
attitude of "just make it outta steel, an' thicker," simply
does not work. There's a lot more to it than that.

Quoted message said:

As far as bars and stems go, I prefer Nitto 175s (now out
of production, and a damned shame as they were the most
comfortable bar ever made. All the modern post-STI/Ergo
bars have too little reach for guys with ham-sized hands.
The 175s were perfect [for me] with Ergo levers, and very
good with any other levers) and Nitto Technomic or Pearl
stems. Not light but cold-forged and very reliable. I've
never heard of one breaking.

Isn't some of that Japanese gear Keirin-certified, where it
has to go through some kind of safety/durability testing?
What's the deal with Keirin certification anyway?

Matt O.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Matt O'Toole

BTim McNamara said:

(Evan Evans) said:

As stated above stay away from the more exotic materials
, but bars & stems of any type fatigue with age. If you
use them "hard" your best insurance is to replace them
very few years.

There's no way to predict when it is the right time to
replace such components. Basically for the sake of safety,
it's best to avoid stoopid lite stuff.

Thist seems sensible, but if you read that stem test you'd
see it isn't so. Not knowing anything ahead of time, my
"conservative" choice would probably be the TIG welded
Profile. However, the polished titanium Holland, second
lightest in the test, won by a country mile.

I once saw a similar test of MTB handlebars, where the
winner was an ultralight Klein carbon fiber one, by a
similar margin. No steel bars in that test, though...

It all comes depends on design -- intelligent design based
on science and testing, by people with the right kind of
training (engineers). The old machinist's/mechanic's
attitude of "just make it outta steel, an' thicker," simply
does not work. There's a lot more to it than that.

Quoted message said:

As far as bars and stems go, I prefer Nitto 175s (now out
of production, and a damned shame as they were the most
comfortable bar ever made. All the modern post-STI/Ergo
bars have too little reach for guys with ham-sized hands.
The 175s were perfect [for me] with Ergo levers, and very
good with any other levers) and Nitto Technomic or Pearl
stems. Not light but cold-forged and very reliable. I've
never heard of one breaking.

Isn't some of that Japanese gear Keirin-certified, where it
has to go through some kind of safety/durability testing?
What's the deal with Keirin certification anyway?

Matt O. [/B]

Dear Matt,

An academic might attribute keirin certificationto the
overly-regimented Japanese interest in bureaucracy.

A businessman might suggest that the Japanese have
enjoyed enormous manufacturing success through
reducing variation at the behest of Dr. Deming.

A cynic might snicker that when you're gambling
on bicycle races, making sure that the equipment
is Las-Vegas-level honest is necessary.

Carl Fogel

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm replacing the old stem with the Cinelli "Frog" stem.
Quill type (1" threaded forks) with the retaining cap
mounted on _top_ of the stem with three, not just two
bolts. So the body of the stem, not the retaining cap,
bears the rider's weight.

This, IMO, is a vastly superior design. + It has gotten
nothing but rave reviews as well for it's light weight and
stiffness.

I'm not trying to flame you Chris, but how do you know it's
a vastly superior design? Engineering is not such an easy
topic or everyone would be doing it. There are many forces
at work and there can be more than one mode of failure for
any given design. For instance, with a top cap, you are now
subjecting it to huge levering forces in a sprint situation
trying to pry the cap directly off. This was mitigated on
the front cap to some degree because that force is in plane
with the cap. The rider's weight is a much smaller load on
the cap than a lever situation. I respect your decision to
use the top-plate stem and you may be entirely correct, but
I wouldn't be as sure as you are about their relatives
strengths and weaknesses. I would still counsel you to
inspect your parts regularly and expect failures.

Cheers,

Scott..

Matt O'Toole wrote: -snip-

Quoted message said:

It all comes depends on design -- intelligent design based
on science and testing, by people with the right kind of
training (engineers). The old machinist's/mechanic's
attitude of "just make it outta steel, an' thicker,"
simply does not work. There's a lot more to it than that.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Isn't some of that Japanese gear Keirin-certified, where
it has to go through some kind of safety/durability
testing? What's the deal with Keirin certification anyway?

OK, but what about a stem solid forged from good steel by
quality fanatics and then finished like jewelry?

More on that, and something on Keirin, here:
yellowjersey.orgnitto.htmlOpen ↗

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by A Muzi
Matt O'Toole wrote: -snip-

Quoted message said:

It all comes depends on design -- intelligent design based
on science and testing, by people with the right kind of
training (engineers). The old machinist's/mechanic's
attitude of "just make it outta steel, an' thicker,"
simply does not work. There's a lot more to it than that.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Isn't some of that Japanese gear Keirin-certified, where
it has to go through some kind of safety/durability
testing? What's the deal with Keirin certification anyway?

OK, but what about a stem solid forged from good steel by
quality fanatics and then finished like jewelry?

More on that, and something on Keirin, here:
yellowjersey.orgnitto.htmlOpen ↗

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

Dear Andrew,

That's a nice page. Here's a question for you
and perhaps John Dacey (as well as anyone
else who knows something about the subject).

My shoot-from-the-hip guess is that Keirin racing
will turn out to have produced no technological
bicycling improvements whatsoever, but I'll be
just as pleased to find out that I'm wrong.

That is, I expect that Keirin racing may have led
to fantastically accurate machining and high
quality standards, but no innovations.

One way to rub my nose in whatever the truth
may be would be to compare a 1948 Keirin racer
with a 2003 model. (With interesting comparisons
to how a 1948 Le Tour bike differs from a 2003.)

Hoping for a free history lesson,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole wrote: -snip-

Quoted message said:

It all comes depends on design -- intelligent design
based on science and testing, by people with the
right kind of training (engineers). The old
machinist's/mechanic's attitude of "just make it
outta steel, an' thicker," simply does not work.
There's a lot more to it than that.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Isn't some of that Japanese gear Keirin-certified,
where it has to go through some kind of
safety/durability testing? What's the deal with
Keirin certification anyway?

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

OK, but what about a stem solid forged from good steel
by quality fanatics and then finished like jewelry?
More on that, and something on Keirin, here: yellowjersey.or-yellowjersey.or-Open ↗
g/nitto.htmlhttp://www.yellowjersey.org/nitto.html

carlfogel said:

That's a nice page. Here's a question for you and perhaps
John Dacey (as well as anyone else who knows something
about the subject).

My shoot-from-the-hip guess is that Keirin racing will
turn out to have produced no technological bicycling
improvements whatsoever, but I'll be just as pleased to
find out that I'm wrong.

That is, I expect that Keirin racing may have led to
fantastically accurate machining and high quality
standards, but no innovations.

One way to rub my nose in whatever the truth may be would
be to compare a 1948 Keirin racer with a 2003 model. (With
interesting comparisons to how a 1948 Le Tour bike differs
from a 2003.)

Yes, ask John Dacey.

Seriously, I think you may have missed something here. I've
ridden a 1908 Pope-Colombia track bike and found it not very
much different from a new pista machine in my store. Really.

Road bikes are of course very different from fifty-sixty
years ago. Track equipment was so damn good so early that
many changes lie in convenience and standardization with
other gear more than actual performance.

And, generally, track used to be more conservative. When
I was young, steel bars, stems and cranks (even 1" x
3/16 chain) were still common on track bikes but
obsolete on the road.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

carlfogel said:

A Muzi said:

Matt O'Toole wrote: -snip-

Quoted message said:

It all comes depends on design -- intelligent design
based on science and testing, by people with the
right kind of training (engineers). The old
machinist's/mechanic's attitude of "just make it
outta steel, an' thicker," simply does not work.
There's a lot more to it than that.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Isn't some of that Japanese gear Keirin-certified,
where it has to go through some kind of
safety/durability testing? What's the deal with
Keirin certification anyway?

OK, but what about a stem solid forged from good steel
by quality fanatics and then finished like jewelry?
More on that, and something on Keirin, here: yellowjersey.or-yellowjersey.or-Open ↗
g/nitto.htmlhttp://www.yellowjersey.org/nitto.html
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since
1 April, 1971

Dear Andrew,

That's a nice page. Here's a question for you and perhaps
John Dacey (as well as anyone else who knows something
about the subject).

My shoot-from-the-hip guess is that Keirin racing will
turn out to have produced no technological bicycling
improvements whatsoever, but I'll be just as pleased to
find out that I'm wrong.

That is, I expect that Keirin racing may have led to
fantastically accurate machining and high quality
standards, but no innovations.

One way to rub my nose in whatever the truth may be would
be to compare a 1948 Keirin racer with a 2003 model. (With
interesting comparisons to how a 1948 Le Tour bike differs
from a 2003.)

Hoping for a free history lesson,

Dear Carl,

April 1, 1934 - the UCI regulations are changed to
effectively prohibit non-diamond frame bicycles from
competition. Almost all technical advances in higher level
racing since then have been in materials and components,
since the basic design of the racing bicycle is frozen.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

As far as bars and stems go, I prefer Nitto 175s (now out
of production, and a damned shame as they were the most
comfortable bar ever made. All the modern post-STI/Ergo
bars have too little reach for guys with ham-sized hands.
The 175s were perfect [for me] with Ergo levers, and very
good with any other levers) and Nitto Technomic or Pearl
stems. Not light but cold-forged and very reliable. I've
never heard of one breaking.

I broke one (Technomic) last year, fracture just above the
headset, no crashes, damage, or corrosion. It was a fail-
soft though, since the (wedge) bolt held things together.

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kyle.B.H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<wh_4c.11672$po.165583@attbi_s52>...

Quoted message said:

<snip>
So

Quoted message said:

I'd like to solicit some recommendations on the most
failure proof components that belong to the class of "if
they failed on you, it could be really bad" (stems,
bars).

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Nitto handlebars and stem, like I have on my 'cross
bike: pacifier.comphOpen ↗
oto_7.html

I'm 6-foot-4, 220 pounds (eek!). I'd have no problem
beating the heck out of the Nitto bars and stem, if only I
could get rid of this respiratory glop that's plagued me
this winter.

What gives you such confidence? I don't see that there's
anything unique about the Nitto stuff. I've broken a stem in
pure fatigue. I'm a little larger (6'10"/235), but Nitto is
the first/only stem I've broken.

rbt-<< So I'd like to solicit some recommendations on the
most failure proof components >><BR><BR>

Steel and not stoopid light aluminum. Adequate for the job
stems and hbars and rims(aluminum). Steel in BB spindles and
pedal spindles.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Kyle.B.H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:wh_4c.11672$po.165583@attbi_s52...

Quoted message said:

I've been following several recent posts concerning broken
stems and handlebars, and decided that while the
possibilities may be remote, these examples represent
failures that I'd like to not happen to me in the next 40+
years of riding bicycles. I have a handmade steel frame
with a steel fork and steel steerer, and now that I think
of it, it seems foolish to

ride

Quoted message said:

a stem and handlebar that were conceived with light weight
and aesthetics

as

Quoted message said:

the primary design considerations (... a 235 gram
handlebar on a 22 lb bike!). In fact, its difficult to
avoid such componentry these days. So I'd like to solicit
some recommendations on the most failure proof components
that belong to the class of "if they failed on you, it
could be really bad" (stems, bars). Granted, the complete
failure of most

components

Quoted message said:

could be a really bad thing, but the failure of certain
ones are more

within

Quoted message said:

the realm of possibility than others.

Some examples:

Salsa's cromo SUL stems. Avoiding things like titanium BB
and pedal spindles.

others?

Thx,

Kyle

You may notice a trend here: for every person that says "I
love this 'cause its never broken," you'll find another
saying "that's a POS, I've broken
1/2/many."

Being a sprinter-type build, I figure if there's two choices
in the same part, I should pick the heavier of the two. For
example: Ritchey Pro vs. WCS bars, wheels. Some things are
just plain wrong: Ti square-taper BB spindles. The new
Octalink spindles in Ti probably wouldn't be as bad, but I
don't know of anyone making them.

Mike