compact geometry hell

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tom Sherman

BCarl Fogel said:

... I suppose that I can't complain if it's only 15 speeds. My touring bike only has 14.

Dear Carl,

Does your touring bike have a single chainring and Rohloff hub?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side) [/B]

Dear Tom,

Which touring bike do you mean?

I am now [modest cough] the owner and operator
of two bicycles.

My faithful old 53/39 Schwinn LeTour with seven rear
sprockets?

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs
Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus $3.98
tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is
included!--and tires now inflated to 55 sizzling psi?

Ostentatiously,

Carl Fogel
Fury Roadmaster owner since 03-03-2004 4:36pm MST

RE/

Quoted message said:

Good point. Overheard a sales clerk mutter as he walked by to fetch a chi-chi gee-gaw for a well
heeled, clueless customer: "People have way too much f@$#%^ money".

My neighbor's comment after seeing people down the shore impulse-buying $250 sunglasses on the
boardwalk: "Just goes to show that taxes are too low in this country."
--
PeteCresswell

carlfogel said:

I am now [modest cough] the owner and operator of two bicycles.

My faithful old 53/39 Schwinn LeTour with seven rear sprockets?

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus $3.98
tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is included!--and tires now inflated to 55
sizzling psi?

Ostentatiously,

Carl Fogel Fury Roadmaster owner since 03-03-2004 4:36pm MST

I'm terribly impressed. Please provide us with stories of how you "overcome any obstacles in your
way and make it to the top".

--Kevin

Kevin Cullen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

I am now [modest cough] the owner and operator of two bicycles.

My faithful old 53/39 Schwinn LeTour with seven rear sprockets?

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus
$3.98 tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is included!--and tires now inflated to 55
sizzling psi?

Ostentatiously,

Carl Fogel Fury Roadmaster owner since 03-03-2004 4:36pm MST

I'm terribly impressed. Please provide us with stories of how you "overcome any obstacles in your
way and make it to the top".

--Kevin

Dear Kevin,

I have a working title: "It's Not About the Bike." (The editor has expressed vague reservations.)

However, despite my scorn for technology, I have already removed both spoke-reflectors, having been
advised that the extra rotating mass might cost me precious seconds during acceleration.

The spoke-reflectors almost escaped my notice, lurking down there under the mammoth mountain-bike
tire-knobs.

Why, I wonder, does my new contraption have such huge, fierce treads sticking out on the side? Are
these triceratops-like projections a mating signal to female mountain-bikes and a challenge to male
mountain-bikes, like the antlers on moose or the ears on basset hounds?

Carl Fogel

Mr Chisholm intoned:

Quoted message said:

Compact, like a lot of things 'bike' is being foisted onto the consumer.

So, you're implying that there is something WRONG with compact bikes - other than aesthetics.
Specifically, what is it?

Do the frames fall apart? Are they physically less comfortable than standard geometry bikes? Is the
exposed length of seatpost a failure danger?

I understand the sizing issues - but when almost all bikes are already only manufactured in
essentially symmetrical sizing (e.g., 56 TT, 56 ST) this kinda goes away as issue that sets standard
geometry apart from compact. ALL non-custom frames will present fit issues for one segment of the
market or another.

I have had discussions with many riders of compact frames and have examined bike setup on their
bikes. My totally unscientific findings are that the compact frame actually allows for a wider
variety of position, especially in light of one of the other favorite gripes of the retro grouch,
the dreaded threadless headset, which limits bar position.

I know that many think compact frames are "ugly", especially fans of classic steel, but if they
represent value to the customer, and minor salvation for the bike industry, what's wrong with that?

App

Appkiller said:

So, you're implying that there is something WRONG with compact bikes - other than aesthetics.
Specifically, what is it?

You can't mount as large a frame pump, which makes pumping up tyres more prolonged a process.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Tom Sherman said:

Carl Fogel said:

I suppose that I can't complain if it's only 15 speeds. My touring bike only has 14.

Does your touring bike have a single chainring and Rohloff hub?

I dunno about him, but mine has 14 speeds as a 52/34 x 13/34; which I suspect is still more useful
than the 15 speeds on a gaspipe job... :-)
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

carlfogel said:

Fury Roadmaster owner since 03-03-2004 4:36pm MST

Kudos! Is it faster than greased frog snot? Does it stop on a dime? Does it clear giant obstacles in
a single effortless bound? Is it stiff yet compliant?

Do you plan to use it for some short-distance errands, like the 2-mile commuter that made you start
thinking of this? Or will this be your do-it-all bike?

I'm eagerly awaiting the initial report and (hopefully) long-term reports.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

Quoted message said:

When you stop at the stoplight, how do you rest your leg on the top bar?

I practice my trackstand. Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

pete-<< So, you're implying that there is something WRONG with compact bikes - other than
aesthetics. Specifically, what is it? >><BR><BR>

Nothing 'wrong' but no probelm is being solved, no question being answered by compact for the
middle of the bell curve rider, size wise. BUT when reading their marketing drivel, they are
lighter, stiffer, faster, more complient, etc type of drivel.

Okey, yah marketing = lies. We all knew that.

Quoted message said:

Remember who and why compact was first made, by Giant and 4 sizes. Like threadless it was to save
money, but painted as a performance enhancing feature.

Yah, marketing again.

Quoted message said:

PETE-<< Are they physically less comfortable than standard geometry bikes? >><BR><BR>

Some with only a few sizes do not fit tall riders well. I saw a extra large frameset for a guy 6
ft tall that needed a 400mm seatpost and 140mm stem.

Yah, you make my point. Not custom = not good for everyone, compact or not. And you are right, this
is a particularly egregious example. Kinda like a 56 cc ST Klein Stage with a 59 cc TT (I had it
and dumped
it). Just wrong for those who would expect to be able to ride it.

Quoted message said:

Pete<< Is the exposed length of seatpost a failure danger? >><BR><BR>

For light seatposts, absolutely and for some framesets, a split seattube.

Pete<< ALL non-custom frames will present fit issues for one segment of the market or another.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Far fewer problems when the sizes are 46cm to 64cm with 1 cm increments with varying top tube
lengths and seat tube angles.

How many mfr's make them in these increments at compact frame prices? Most compact frames are mid to
consumer grade alu. The only mfr's making that many sizes are high end. Usually 2 cm increments, up
to 59 or 60, with a min of 50 or 49.

Quoted message said:

pete-<< I have had discussions with many riders of compact frames and have examined bike setup on
their bikes. My totally unscientific findings are that the compact frame actually allows for a
wider variety of position, >><BR><BR>

this makes no sense. This is like saying shoes in whole sizes only fit more people, than whole and
half sizes...just add a little tissue papaer in the >toe.

If just adding "a little tissue paper" resulted in a perfectly comfortable shoe, then why not?

Quoted message said:

See my post about WHY these things were made(to save money) and HOW they were portaryed, is my
point. If ya want to believe threadless, compact, carbon ass ends, oversized handlebars, 1 1/8
inch integrated road HS', wheels outta boxes and disc brakes make ya faster, go ahead...I don't.

Quoted message said:

Pete-<< I know that many think compact frames are "ugly", especially fans of classic steel, but if
they represent value to the customer, and minor salvation for the bike industry, what's wrong with
that? >><BR><BR>

The $ savings are not passed onto the rider. If you want to reward a poorly performing industry,
go ahead but I prefer to reward an industry that does it right, with the customer, not the board
members, in mind.

Examples of high quality cheap compact frames: Gunnar, Schwinn (prior to buyout), Specialized,etc...
Which manufacturers of high end normal geometry bikes are producing affordable high quality frames?
Which mfr's are thinking about the customer, not revenue?

Quoted message said:

Would you buy a car with the same motivations in mind? Or a washing machine or a watch or
anything else?

We are forced into it - $1500 dollar non-repairable car bumpers, Shimano non-repairable components,
etc... Everything we buy has been engineered for maximized profit (whether the engineering was
successful is another story).

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

App

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

... I suppose that I can't complain if it's only 15 speeds. My touring bike only has 14.

Dear Carl,

Does your touring bike have a single chainring and Rohloff hub?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

My newsgroup indexing gods broke the following replies off into another thread, so I reproduce them
below, lest you miss vital technical details, and then reveal the results of the first ride.

Carl Fogel

[First, my reply to your wide-eyed innocence.]

Dear Tom,

Which touring bike do you mean?

I am now [modest cough] the owner and operator of two bicycles.

My faithful old 53/39 Schwinn LeTour with seven rear sprockets?

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus $3.98
tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is included!--and tires now inflated to 55
sizzling psi?

Ostentatiously,

Carl Fogel, Fury Roadmaster owner since 03-03-2004 4:36pm MST

[Next, Kevin Cullen confessed to helpless admiration, but stopped short of requesting a signed
photograph.]

Quoted message said:

I'm terribly impressed. Please provide us with stories of how you "overcome any obstacles in your
way and make it to the top".

--Kevin

Dear Kevin,

I have a working title: "It's Not About the Bike." (The editor has expressed vague reservations.)

However, despite my scorn for technology, I have already removed both spoke-reflectors, having been
advised that the extra rotating mass might cost me precious seconds during acceleration.

The spoke-reflectors almost escaped my notice, lurking down there under the mammoth mountain-bike
tire-knobs.

Why, I wonder, does my new contraption have such huge, fierce treads sticking out on the side? Are
these triceratops-like projections a mating signal to female mountain-bikes and a challenge to male
mountain-bikes, like the antlers on moose or the ears on basset hounds?

Carl Fogel

[Now for the results of the first test ride.]

Since none of my neighbors complained about a 48-year-old man riding back and forth on the street at
midnight while getting a spare speedometer to work and raising the seat post and handlebar stem, I
sallied forth after lunch, feeling much like Sancho Panza.

The gearshifts are clicky friction doo-dads mounted on either handlebar and confuse me easily, but
I'm used to down-tube shifters (which also confuse me some days, but that's another story).

The cranks are shorter than usual. Peter Chisholm would wince at the riding position, but I'll
probably get used to it. The silly thing is sold for gentlemen aged 10-17 who are still pursuing
their education, not for someone just over six feet tall, around 195 pounds, and consumed by
insatiable curiosity.

The fork legs are as thick as my touring bike's main tubes, so mounting the speedometer involved larger-than-
normal zip ties and a section of thorn-resistant inner tube to pad the sensor out to within hailing
distance of the spoke magnet. Sears best measuring tape indicated a front tire unashamed of an 81.5-
inch circumference, so I set the $13 speedometer that I had lying around to 2070mm.

Sitting bolt upright in the approved MTB fashion, I was surprised to find the speedometer creeping
up to almost respectable levels. For my trial run, I pedalled over to the city park and did two
slightly different laps, hoping for about four miles. While a bowling ball might not roll around
this route, I doubt that there's ten feet of elevation change, including going up and down over the
four six-inch-high speed humps.

I assume that soulless rec.bicycles.tech readers care nothing for scenic description, so here's
the raw data:
13:42 elapsed time, 4.06 miles, 17.8 mph average speed, and 22.2 mph maximum speed (which startled
me, but I think a brief tailwind on the backstretch past the zoo was responsible). The original
thread that started all this involved a college student who wanted to buy something to pedal two
miles to school and two miles back, so four miles seems reasonable.

Afterward, I counted teeth and found a 48-tooth front sprocket with elegant shifting ramps powering
a 14-tooth rear cog. (I neglected to pick the bike with the owner's manual at MalWart. The fully-
equipped bike had a funny bump when its front tire rolled, so I rejected it while gazing longingly
at the $64 model that, alas, was out of my price range.)

Only 996 more miles and Dave Van Tol's check for $7.71 is mine! This must be how Lance feels as he
rolls off the starting line in France, already thinking about spending his prize money on Sheryl
Crowe CD's.

Carl Fogel

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

pete-<< So, you're implying that there is something WRONG with compact bikes - other than
aesthetics. Specifically, what is it? >><BR><BR>

Nothing 'wrong' but no probelm is being solved, no question being answered by compact for the
middle of the bell curve rider, size wise. BUT when reading their marketing drivel, they are
lighter, stiffer, faster, more complient, etc type of drivel.

That "middle of the bell curve" line was a total cop-out Peter.

There IS a problem being solved with a compact frame. As Mike S has said, and you have dodged over
and over again, people with short legs and long torsos (like me!) can fit a standard compact frame
but not a "classic" square frame.

I can go buy an affordable, off the shelf, compact frame that will fit both me and the average guy.
Without compact, I would have to go custom, and that's silly.

Quoted message said:

Remember who and why compact was first made, by Giant and 4 sizes. Like threadless it was to save
money, but painted as a performance enhancing feature.

This is a dodge. Giant got all the attention for their compact road frame in only 4 sizes, but we
all know that was stupid, and plenty of manufacturers make compact frames in 2cm increments.
Specialized, Cervelo, and many others. These frames fit MORE of the population than a standard
square frame.

Quoted message said:

PETE-<< Are they physically less comfortable than standard geometry bikes? >><BR><BR>

Some with only a few sizes do not fit tall riders well. I saw a extra large frameset for a guy 6
ft tall that needed a 400mm seatpost and 140mm stem.

Well, of course. A bad fitting frame is a bad fitting frame, no matter the geometry. You see the
same kind of thing with standard frames too, all the time. Admit it...

And on and on.

If you would just admit up front you really just think compact frames are ugly, we would understand
why you keep stretching to find other reasons not to like them.

Some people like me have decided that having more money in our wallet to pay the mortgage looks
better than the style of frame we are riding...

jesse

carlfogel said:

Tom Sherman said:

Carl Fogel said:

... I suppose that I can't complain if it's only 15 speeds. My touring bike only has 14.

Dear Carl, Does your touring bike have a single chainring and Rohloff hub? Tom Sherman - Quad
Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

Which touring bike do you mean?

I am now [modest cough] the owner and operator of two bicycles.

My faithful old 53/39 Schwinn LeTour with seven rear sprockets?

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus $3.98
tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is included!--and tires now inflated to 55
sizzling psi?...

Dear Carl,

I believe that the "MalWart" bicycle shaped object would be improved with the addition of a Schlumpf
two-speed BB and a Rohloff hub for a 28-speed drivetrain. 😉

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Fogellization:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus $3.98
tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is included!--and tires now inflated to 55
sizzling psi?...

Tom Sherman said:

I believe that the "MalWart" bicycle shaped object would be improved with the addition of a
Schlumpf two-speed BB and a Rohloff hub for a 28-speed drivetrain. 😉

Adding those items would result in a 420 speed drivetrain. Replacing the existing drivetrain with
them would result in the 28-speed.

Of course, nobody should ever use a hub that's worth more than 10x the price of the bike.
--
Rick Onanian

Jesse Thompson said:

... If you would just admit up front you really just think compact frames are ugly, we would
understand why you keep stretching to find other reasons not to like them.

Some people like me have decided that having more money in our wallet to pay the mortgage looks
better than the style of frame we are riding...

A quality, "classic" design steel frame will easily last for 20+ years, so the annual cost is very
low. Of course, this requires that one forgo the constant need to upgrade mentality.

And yes, compact frames are unconscionably ugly. Even recumbent riders think so. 🙂

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

"Per Löwdin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you stop at the stoplight, how do you rest your leg on the top bar?

I practice my trackstand. Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

OT Fabulous Website!

Peter Serjeant

I don't consider myself a purist although I like traditional frames more than compact frames. However, I do think that there are some traditionalists on this thread that merely want to dismiss compact frames under the assumption that its all a smoke & mirrors marketing thing. Usually, that's the last line of defense for an old fart to claim that new technology is all marketing.

dvt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

Fury Roadmaster owner since 03-03-2004 4:36pm MST

Kudos! Is it faster than greased frog snot? Does it stop on a dime? Does it clear giant obstacles
in a single effortless bound? Is it stiff yet compliant?

Do you plan to use it for some short-distance errands, like the 2-mile commuter that made you
start thinking of this? Or will this be your do-it-all bike?

I'm eagerly awaiting the initial report and (hopefully) long-term reports.

Dear Dave,

For reasons known only to my news server's indexing gods, everything has moved over to the "there's-a-reason-
why" thread.

Errands, as Leona might say, are for little people. I propose to continue my far-from-rigorous and
utterly pointless daily ride on my long-standing Rocinante, while adding a daily four-mile level
stint on my version of Sancho Panza's ass.

Apart from glory (and your money), I expect to attract even

by two brisk laps through the city park.

("Look at that bearded weirdo in the silly costume, Sally. Do you think he stole that bicycle from
some poor child?"😉

Carl Fogel

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

carlfogel said:

Tom Sherman said:

Carl Fogel wrote:
> ... I suppose that I can't complain if it's only 15 speeds. My touring bike only has 14.
Dear Carl, Does your touring bike have a single chainring and Rohloff hub? Tom Sherman -
Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

Which touring bike do you mean?

I am now [modest cough] the owner and operator of two bicycles.

My faithful old 53/39 Schwinn LeTour with seven rear sprockets?

Or my brand-new triple-front-ring, five-rear-cogs Fury Roadmaster from MalWart, $53.73 plus
$3.98 tax, complete with kickstand--yes, a kickstand is included!--and tires now inflated to 55
sizzling psi?...

Dear Carl,

I believe that the "MalWart" bicycle shaped object would be improved with the addition of a
Schlumpf two-speed BB and a Rohloff hub for a 28-speed drivetrain. 😉

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

My MawlRat bicycle needs no over-elaborate Teutonic machinery, with onomatopoeic names:

"Schlumpf! goes the front transmission, collapsing and causing the rear hub to perform a disastrous
rohl-off."

You might as well be a famous bicyclist immodestly named for the wrong part of the body and
enamoured of a singer named after a croaking bird.

Schlumpf? Humph!

Carl Fogel

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear Tom,

My MawlRat bicycle needs no over-elaborate Teutonic machinery, with onomatopoeic names:

"Schlumpf! goes the front transmission, collapsing and causing the rear hub to perform a
disastrous rohl-off."

I'd be curious to know how badly or how well the initial preparation was. What did you have to
adjust, etc., to feel secure before really taking it out.
--
Bonne route,

Sandy Paris FR