Cold & Wet Marathon Preparations

Phil M. said:

I know it's too early to know for sure, but the October 10 forecast for
Scranton PA (Steamtown Marathon) is "Clouds, cold and rainy, Low 38° F,
High 57° F." If it is actually that cold, then the bulk of my time out
there will be in the low 40s. That isn't too bad in dry conditions, but
once you add rain, things can change.

Looking back on my running log I can see that back in February I've run in
these types of conditions for easy runs as long as 12 miles. However,
racing for 26 miles in rain and cold may be a different story. Anyone have
any tips on what to wear for this?

What did you wear then? Did it work for 12 miles? Would it work for 26.2
miles? You're your own best judge of layers.

Here's my experience and why (probably more than you want to know, but
it includes some data points and I don't believe in messing with
hypothermia). A lot depends on how hard the rain is and how windy. Road
races are going to be more exposed than most traill races (unless above
treeline).

In the 40s without rain, I wear a synthetic t-shirt and my sporthills,
probably xc's in low 40s but possibly voyagers in high 40s, no hat or
gloves/mittens. In your range 38-57, I might lean toward the lighter
weight pants, but I have no experience with them in the rain. I've done
a 2+ hr duathlon with my xc's in a pouring rain in 40s (ugly on the bike
as they got saturated, but I was still warm). I'd probably carry a
light-weight knit hat in a pocket to use if I started getting cold.

With a non-driving, light rain, I use a water-resistant shell. As the
rain intensity picks up or the wind increases, I would be tempted to use
my waterproof shell. It doesn't breathe well, but does have pit zips
which are close to worthless unless it's breezy (too windy and need to
zip them up). For me, warm sweat is much preferable to cold rain and wet
clothes - both from a hypothermia-prevention aspect and probably less
additional weight (unless running in shorts and singlet). Since I'd have
a camelbak on, my back is protected anyway.

My philosophy: Warm legs will be functioning legs. Cold legs are
potentially injury prone. I try to be sure legs are protected then
ventilate through top. Keeping legs warm also helps keep feet warm, at
least in my experience.

FWIW, in Sunday's race, most people looked like they started with one
layer (or maybe a base layer and a very breathable insulating layer)
under a shell and several had peeled to t-shirts by the end. Our
forecast had been for 35-38F temps with wind and rain - and of course,
we already had the 3 inches of slush on the ground. At the race start,
it was only spitting a drop or two. I wore my most breathable shell (not
very breathable in warm weather) that has good wind protection - good
hood, pockets to stash hat and gloves when not needed. I knew it wasn't
waterproof. If I had run the longer race, I would've taken my waterproof
shell and depended on the slight moisture resistance of my insulating
layer to hold off the light mist that was present initially. Having good
rain gear after 2 hrs on the long course would be valuable, esp. if had
to hobble for injury or something.

Caveat: I found 20-40F temps last winter to be about ideal for me. When
it got much above 40, I was slowing down. I've also experienced
hypothermia when I was young, dumb, and ignorant. I go to great lengths
to avoid a re-occurrence esp. since I spend most of my time running (or
doing field work) alone. The ability to make decisions is one of the
first things impaired by hypothermia. I'm especially cautious on trails.

Also keep in mind, that as I was sitting there in the tire change place
for 2.5 hrs, I was watching a pretty hard rain in 20+ mph winds in 38F.
If I had been running the longer race, I would've been running in that.
I know what it's like for field work. So right now, I'm probably
thinking more layers or wind/rain protection than normal.

In other words, what works for you under your race day conditions may
not be what has worked for others. Enjoy.

Dot
Hmmm, my yard is white now and it wasn't when I got up.

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

What did you wear then? Did it work for 12 miles? Would it work for
26.2 miles? You're your own best judge of layers.

It worked for 12. But more than double that and add another hour and 40
minutes of running at marathon pace could change the picture. In past
marathons, where it was that cold but not wet, I just wore an old cotton
long sleeve shirt and tossed it in the trash after I felt warm.

Phil M.

--
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make
them all yourself." ­Martin Vanbee

<< Here's my experience and why (probably more than you want to know, but
it includes some data points and I don't believe in messing with >>

....many thanks for the data points.
You're wise to include me, too.

<< I'd probably carry a
light-weight knit hat in a pocket to use if I started getting cold. >>

Don't forget your sweater, too.

<<
Dot
Hmmm, my yard is white now and it wasn't when I got up. >>

A velevetenn blanket to keep you warm...

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Phil M. said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

What did you wear then? Did it work for 12 miles? Would it work for
26.2 miles? You're your own best judge of layers.

It worked for 12. But more than double that and add another hour and 40
minutes of running at marathon pace could change the picture.

Yea, that's what makes it hard to judge. I had all my clothes put out
for Sunday based on forecast, then added my non-breathable raingear -
including the bottoms, which I've only worn once - after I saw what the
weather was like in Palmer - just for <1-hr race. At race start (no
wind, just a couple drops of rain), I lightened up on the top layer, but
was glad I had the warmer bottom layers on for my legs - only once did
my legs feel like they were getting overly warm and that was on big
hill. My feet never felt warm (running in ice water), but they never
cramped either like they used to (probably smartwool socks at work). But
my legs do warm up after 1 hr or so on hills - if they haven't lost too
much heat to start. If they get too cold early on, then I don't have the
correct muscle function to work hard enough to keep warm, and end up in
downward spiral. This is one of the things I like about cb for fluids, I
can adjust layers as needed as I warm up or cool down and have a place
to stash them.

The way your body responds to heat/cold and layering and the way you
generate heat may be very different than mine.

*My* inclination is to have a decent rainshell on top since that will be
taking the brunt of the rain, assuming it's hard. If it's just misting
or light rain, some of these water resistant / repellant ones may work
well enough.

Something I haven't tested in the rain yet is my Marmot Evolution (1/2
price closeout last spring). It uses N2S fabric - supposedly a wickable
lining inside something like windstopper, iirc. I haven't had it in
cooler temperatures yet to see how well it works for what it was
designed to do. But I have found it to be reasonably wind-proof and is a
great warm up top for me in low 40s. Start with it on. Peel it in about
5-10 minutes. Put it back on if windy. But I haven't had it in much rain
yet since I was testing the Krushell (my more likely choice to use since
it has pockets and hood whereas Evolution has neither).

In past

Quoted message said:

marathons, where it was that cold but not wet, I just wore an old cotton
long sleeve shirt and tossed it in the trash after I felt warm.

There's always the plastic bag trick 😉 If it isn't raining to start,
just take the bag with you and put it on when/if needed.

Keep in mind, too, that my perspective is always from running alone on
trails - I can't just pull over and stop and hope for a ride back with
sag wagon or have 1st aid station treat for hypothermia. So I'll tend to
prepare more cautiously than younger people running marathons in cities.
YMMV.

Dot
might get to snowshoe run today if this keeps up, but it's supposed to
turn to rain

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

<< Dot
might get to snowshoe run today if this keeps up, but it's supposed to
turn to rain >>

....You'll be fine, I know.

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Phil M. said:

I know it's too early to know for sure, but the October 10 forecast for
Scranton PA (Steamtown Marathon) is "Clouds, cold and rainy, Low 38° F,
High 57° F." If it is actually that cold, then the bulk of my time out
there will be in the low 40s. That isn't too bad in dry conditions, but

cold i wouldn't worry about. rain-proof shells have been covered
already and you'll be plenty warm as you run. i would wear
a cap to shield my face. i have run in POURING rain and a simple
cap kept my glasses prety well spot free.

i would WORRY a lot about my feet. wet feet==blisters. i'm afraid
i have no solution to this. if it were me i would try putting my feet
in large sandwich bags inside my shoes. but then they would
sweat. i would bring extra socks to change into once
in a while. but this would just be an experiment for me.

probably somebody here should know.
....thehick

When my blood sugar goes around mile 20, so does my thermoregulation.
I got very chilled in foggy 50 degree weather, and near sunstroke in 80 degrees.
Id carry an extra polypro long sleave shirt or get one from a friend around
mile 20.

Phil,
Here's my experience (which is limited and for shorter distances). I did my
first half last fall. The day of the race was raining and cold after
training in glorious warm weather. I didn't know what to wear. It didn't
seem all that cold at first and I foolishly opted for shorts and a t-shirt.
If it hadn't been raining, shorts and t-shirt would have been fine (I think
it was just under 10 C) The half was along the Niagara River so there was
also quite a breeze off the water as well and the rain never let up. I had
never been cold on a run before but by the end of the race I was miserable
and my legs felt like granite. Thank goodness for the blankets at the
finish line. I never thought I'd run another half.

This spring I ran a cold, rainy 15 km. with significant winds. So, in other
words - worse weather. This time I wore a long-sleeved wicking shirt and
tights with a wind jacket (water repellent). I was still wet at the end of
the race but pretty comfortable.

I also like wool socks. I usually wear smartwool (although they're
outrageously expensive). They are particularly good in wet conditions - no
blisters.

I think a hat with a visor is good to keep the rain out of your face and/or
(sun)glasses especially if it's a driving rain.

Good luck on your run. Clothes do make a difference.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know it's too early to know for sure, but the October 10 forecast for
Scranton PA (Steamtown Marathon) is "Clouds, cold and rainy, Low 38° F,
High 57° F." If it is actually that cold, then the bulk of my time out
there will be in the low 40s. That isn't too bad in dry conditions, but
once you add rain, things can change.

Looking back on my running log I can see that back in February I've run in
these types of conditions for easy runs as long as 12 miles. However,
racing for 26 miles in rain and cold may be a different story. Anyone have
any tips on what to wear for this?

Phil M.

Cold and wet? I'd go with warm and dry. Sincerely, Mr. Obvious

(rick++) said:

When my blood sugar goes around mile 20, so does my thermoregulation.
I got very chilled in foggy 50 degree weather, and near sunstroke in
80 degrees. Id carry an extra polypro long sleave shirt or get one
from a friend around mile 20.

I might wear one at the start. Take it off if warm and wrap it around my
waist for later use. However, if it ends up being dry on race day, I may
just wear a cheap cotton long sleeve and just toss it when I warm up. I'm
praying for no rain.

Phil M.

--
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make
them all yourself." ­Martin Vanbee

Jane said:

I also like wool socks. I usually wear smartwool (although they're
outrageously expensive). They are particularly good in wet conditions - no
blisters.

I second the recommendation for smartwool. One thing I've noticed about these
is that if you wash them, then squeeze the water out, they're dry-to-touch
immediately. There's very little you can do to stop your feet getting wet,
but the wool stays warm when it's wet.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

<< There's very little you can do to stop your feet getting wet,
but the wool stays warm when it's wet.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi >>

....indeed, and beware of sheep
in wolf's clothing.
speaking of lambs...

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<< Cold and wet? >>

I am.

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Phil M. said:

(rick++) said:

When my blood sugar goes around mile 20, so does my thermoregulation.
I got very chilled in foggy 50 degree weather, and near sunstroke in
80 degrees. Id carry an extra polypro long sleave shirt or get one
from a friend around mile 20.

I might wear one at the start. Take it off if warm and wrap it around my
waist for later use. However, if it ends up being dry on race day, I may
just wear a cheap cotton long sleeve and just toss it when I warm up. I'm
praying for no rain.

Phil M.

Good idea. To emphasize what Rick mentioned, be sure to stay hydrated
and fueled. You'll probably burn more calories in cooler weather. And if
it is chilly, be sure to keep the muscles warm. (read Armstrong's
chapter on cold if you want more - the science behind the gut feeling
that I had developed)

I ran an experiment this afternoon, although I missed the rain (but did
get lots of wet snow dumping off trees from above and blocking my way
where they were bent over trail) and it was about 10-15F colder (about
30F) than what you'd be expecting. Assuming your temperatures are in low
40s and rain, you might find some of the pants / tights that are wind
resistant in the quad area (or maybe entire front) helpful (or maybe
fitness shorts). My sporthills soaked up enough water in that area in
about 35 min that I was starting to feel chilled in that area. Overall I
had taken hat and gloves off at mid-way point since I was plenty warm
otherwise. And my feet were dry, but not warm, in Sealskinz, even after
I ran through some puddles.

The 40-50F and rain is a likely scenario for any of my trail races in
August (and I suspect will be out many hours in it), so I've been
curious about that combination for a long time - and haven't had a
chance to test.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Phil M. said:

(rick++) said:

When my blood sugar goes around mile 20, so does my thermoregulation.
I got very chilled in foggy 50 degree weather, and near sunstroke in
80 degrees. Id carry an extra polypro long sleave shirt or get one
from a friend around mile 20.

I might wear one at the start. Take it off if warm and wrap it around
my waist for later use. However, if it ends up being dry on race day,
I may just wear a cheap cotton long sleeve and just toss it when I
warm up. I'm praying for no rain.

Phil M.

Good idea. To emphasize what Rick mentioned, be sure to stay hydrated
and fueled. You'll probably burn more calories in cooler weather. And
if it is chilly, be sure to keep the muscles warm. (read Armstrong's
chapter on cold if you want more - the science behind the gut feeling
that I had developed)

So much for all those 20-milers in 80+ degree temps. April marathons work
out much better for me. So if I BQ on this one, Boston 2005 or 2006 will be
the next one.

As I'm writing this, I checked AccuWeather.com 15-day forecast...

Saturday Night 10/9 - Partly cloudy Low 45° F
Sunday 10/10 - Sun and some clouds High 65° F

Woohooo! My prayers were answered. I just hope it doesn't change again.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

So much for all those 20-milers in 80+ degree temps.

LOL. I don't usually do speed work per se, although I will push effort
level toward LT on hills on appropriate days. My running on snow has
been mostly that's what I run on, so no biggy. My snow running
experience was far more beneficial than speed work on Sunday for a
change - I just hadn't done any recently 😉

April marathons work

Quoted message said:

out much better for me. So if I BQ on this one, Boston 2005 or 2006 will be
the next one.

Since I've only been able to run spring races in the past (squeak in
before field season cranks up too much), I'm always transitioning from
cold and snow to warmth and dry ground at the time. And I guess fall
races transition to cold and snow 😉

Quoted message said:

As I'm writing this, I checked AccuWeather.com 15-day forecast...

Saturday Night 10/9 - Partly cloudy Low 45° F
Sunday 10/10 - Sun and some clouds High 65° F

Woohooo! My prayers were answered. I just hope it doesn't change again.

LOL. As I mentioned earlier, my forecast for Saturday didn't even agree
up to about 12 hr before race time, and was wetter that morning that
forecast. The funny thing is. I was *almost* going to fall back on my
original plan to do one of the Tues night series (much cheaper $5 than
what I ran also $25). This Tues was at a trailhead near Sat's race
(actually connecting trails), and the forecast was for the only day
approaching sunny. Well, by the time Tues was here, we had 3 inches of
snow / slush, power outages including traffic lights, etc. - just like
Anchorage on Sat. Smiled sweetly to myself as I went for a short
recovery run, got to test my SealSkinz, stuffed newspaper in my shoes
*again* when I was done, took a hot shower, ate a hot dinner, and
watched the news - all before what would've been race time.

Maybe my sneak attack worked afterall 🙂 🙂

Good luck with your taper and marathon. And I do hope you get to have
40's for your race.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I know it's too early to know for sure, but the October 10 forecast for
Scranton PA (Steamtown Marathon) is "Clouds, cold and rainy, Low 38° F,
High 57° F." If it is actually that cold, then the bulk of my time out
there will be in the low 40s. That isn't too bad in dry conditions, but
once you add rain, things can change.

Looking back on my running log I can see that back in February I've run in
these types of conditions for easy runs as long as 12 miles. However,
racing for 26 miles in rain and cold may be a different story. Anyone have
any tips on what to wear for this?

Phil M.

Whatever you choose make sure it can be removed and put back on as
necessary. Don't pin your number to a jacket. Unless you want to spend
minutes taking the number off and putting back on or feel like
carrying it the whole way. A triathalon race belt would be handy to
have.

Adjustable clothing is useful too. I have a Sporthill shirt that I
wear hiking. I can zip it up or leave it open. I also roll the sleves
up and down as I need to.

A hat is an excellent option as are thin gloves. I prefer those ear
warmers but a hat with a bill will help keeping water out of your
eyes. You may want to think about tossing clothing as you go. Once it
is gone you can't go back and get it if you get cold later.

Hope this helps,
Andy

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

What did you wear then? Did it work for 12 miles? Would it work for
26.2 miles? You're your own best judge of layers.

It worked for 12. But more than double that and add another hour and 40
minutes of running at marathon pace could change the picture. In past
marathons, where it was that cold but not wet, I just wore an old cotton
long sleeve shirt and tossed it in the trash after I felt warm.

Phil M.

Just think here is your opportunity to learn what works for your next
cold and rainy marathon!

Andy

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Phil M. said:

[email hidden] (rick++) wrote:

>When my blood sugar goes around mile 20, so does my thermoregulation.
>I got very chilled in foggy 50 degree weather, and near sunstroke in
>80 degrees. Id carry an extra polypro long sleave shirt or get one
>from a friend around mile 20.

I might wear one at the start. Take it off if warm and wrap it around
my waist for later use. However, if it ends up being dry on race day,
I may just wear a cheap cotton long sleeve and just toss it when I
warm up. I'm praying for no rain.

Phil M.

Good idea. To emphasize what Rick mentioned, be sure to stay hydrated
and fueled. You'll probably burn more calories in cooler weather. And
if it is chilly, be sure to keep the muscles warm. (read Armstrong's
chapter on cold if you want more - the science behind the gut feeling
that I had developed)

So much for all those 20-milers in 80+ degree temps. April marathons work
out much better for me. So if I BQ on this one, Boston 2005 or 2006 will be
the next one.

As I'm writing this, I checked AccuWeather.com 15-day forecast...

Saturday Night 10/9 - Partly cloudy Low 45° F
Sunday 10/10 - Sun and some clouds High 65° F

Woohooo! My prayers were answered. I just hope it doesn't change again.

What makes you think the weathermen got it right this time?

Andy