Changing over to ceramic bearings.

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

For what they sell those bearings for they should be able to do a bit of
research for you.

Ron

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings?

If you want specific info, it would help if you would offer some.

BTW... if you changed all your bearings over to ceramic you'd save a
small fraction of a percent in power. Is it worth the money and hassle
to you?

RonSonic said:

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

For what they sell those bearings for they should be able to do a bit of
research for you.

Replacing all the steel bearings on a bicycle with ceramic bearings
will increase the average riding speed by 0.0001487645676%!

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
I am supporting cannibalism by eating more nuts.

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

It's not worth the effort. A properly adjusted and lubricated bearing
makes only a tiny addition to the rolling resistance of the bike and
rider in motion. A switch to ceramic will not increase your speed one
bit, nor will it make pedaling any easier.

But they will cost more.

Ted

--
Ted Bennett

I know of only one case - a guy blew out his FSA BB and decided to try
their ceramikc BB. It did not last nearly as long as the original...
(Sorry, no numbers to give you.)

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:46:48 -0500, richard <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I know of only one case - a guy blew out his FSA BB and decided to try
their ceramikc BB. It did not last nearly as long as the original...
(Sorry, no numbers to give you.)

I thought long life was one of the features besides the slightly lower
friction. One article claimed that if you put just one or two ceramics
in with the steels, the ceramics because they are so hard, crush any
foreign particles into a fine dust, making the whole assembly last a
lot longer.

Quoted message said:

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to
aftermarket ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to
get the properly sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I
used to change the bearing on my inline skates and skateboards
myself, so I think technically it should be pretty straight
forward. I have tried to find info on the web about what size the
bearings are in the bottom bracket, the guide and tension pulleys,
and of course the wheelsets, though I think I can figure those
out, it would be nice to see the specs in writing form the
manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view does not
give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For what they sell those bearings for they should be able to do a
bit of research for you.

Quoted message said:

Replacing all the steel bearings on a bicycle with ceramic bearings
will increase the average riding speed by 0.0001487645676%!

.... while shortening the life of the bearing races as their stress
increases from a smaller contact patch with the harder bearing balls.

And, what is the purpose of this exercise?

Jobst Brandt

aka Jobst Brandt said:

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

> I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to
> aftermarket ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to
> get the properly sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I
> used to change the bearing on my inline skates and skateboards
> myself, so I think technically it should be pretty straight
> forward. I have tried to find info on the web about what size the
> bearings are in the bottom bracket, the guide and tension pulleys,
> and of course the wheelsets, though I think I can figure those
> out, it would be nice to see the specs in writing form the
> manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view does not
> give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
> info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For what they sell those bearings for they should be able to do a
bit of research for you.

Quoted message said:

Replacing all the steel bearings on a bicycle with ceramic bearings
will increase the average riding speed by 0.0001487645676%!

... while shortening the life of the bearing races as their stress
increases from a smaller contact patch with the harder bearing balls.

And, what is the purpose of this exercise?

To make a point by facetiously posting a fictional improvement with
implied accuracy to thirteen (13) decimal places. 😉

I believe all my bicycles and trike have steel bearings, unless
Shimano, Phil Wood, Ritchey and Cane Creek have been using something
else.

The crappy stock wheel bearings in my push scooter are either steel or
"pot metal".

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

RonSonic said:

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

For what they sell those bearings for they should be able to do a bit of
research for you.

Replacing all the steel bearings on a bicycle with ceramic bearings
will increase the average riding speed by 0.0001487645676%!

I wouldn't have thought that much.

Ron

RonSonic said:

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

RonSonic said:

On 16 Sep 2006 10:48:17 -0700, "G8RRPH" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
>ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
>sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
>bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
>technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
>info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
>the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
>think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
>writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
>does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
>info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

For what they sell those bearings for they should be able to do a bit of
research for you.

Replacing all the steel bearings on a bicycle with ceramic bearings
will increase the average riding speed by 0.0001487645676%!

I wouldn't have thought that much.

Ceramic headset bearings are especially important for speed. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
I am supporting cannibalism by eating more nuts.

"Dum vitant stulti vitia, in contraria currunt." - Horace

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

I see the usual roster of rbt's floccinaucinihilipilificants has
thoughtfully decided the worthiness of this issue for you.

On the off chance that you elect to pursue this further however, be
aware that Shimano hubs don't use cartridge style sealed bearings.
You'll need to acquire eighteen 1/4" ceramic bearing balls (nine for
each rear cup) and twenty 3/16" bearing balls (ten for each front cup)
for most Shimano hubsets. Dura-Ace front hubs have eleven balls in
each cup, so make the adjustment if needed.

If you have a current model premium crank with external bearings
(Shimano calls them "Hollowech II"😉, you'll need to find ceramic
equivalents for the 6805 size sealed unit fitted in each bottom
bracket cup as standard.

You'll also find that the bearings in Shimano's derailleur pulleys
don't readily lend themselves to removal/replacement. I think there
are aftermarket replacement pulleys already fitted with ceramic
bearings that are available however. Alternately, be advised that the
plain bearing guide pulley that comes as standard equipment on many
Shimano derailleurs (e.g., Ultegra) already spins on ceramic sufaces.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
Phone: 305-273-4440
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

About 5 years ago I knew a gent that got me sets of ceramic ball
bearings in the popular 'bike' sizes..1/4, 3/16, 7/32 and
5/32...installed them into hubs, headsets, BBs....not very expensive
and geee....they didn't make any difference...c'mon people..reality
check!!!

I had not expected the cynicism on a new, now getting cheaper,
technology that is being used by the pro peloton, is popular among
remote control car and aviation enthusiasts, and is used in auto
racing. I do not believe these groups and the resources at their
disposal would use ceramic if it didn't make a difference. As prompted
by the first post, I did a more thorough search and sir, you are
correct! After googling ceramic ball bearings, one of the first sites
has everything laid out for you to pick based on your equipment,
leading me to believe I am not the only one with this odd thought.

My guess is the performance increase from using these is not going to
help as much as more training, and the cost is 2-3 times that of steel
bearings, (for one 6805 sealed cartridge, ceramic is about $60 US,
steel is about $30, and about $10 US for 20 1/4" ceramic bearings,
(thanks John)) and considering in all likelihood you will not have to
replace them, it doesn't seem like a bad investment. I know everyone
gets a chuckle when a newbie on a nice bike gets smoked by someone on a
80's era Scwinn LeTour, but I believe in using all tools and technology
at my disposal to have a great time. If I am willing and able to dump
cash into my bike, and if it gets me out more, whether from guilt or
whatever, then I am all the better.

G8RRPH said:

I had not expected the cynicism on a new, now getting cheaper,
technology that is being used by the pro peloton, is popular among
remote control car and aviation enthusiasts, and is used in auto
racing. I do not believe these groups and the resources at their
disposal would use ceramic if it didn't make a difference.

What may make a difference in a small engine that has operating speeds
in the tens of thousands of RPM, or RC racing cars where the wheels may
spin at thousands of RPM, is not going to make a significant difference
in a bicycle. For example, a top UCI rider in a time trial will have
wheels that are turning at less than 400 RPM on the flat sections.

You could expect a similar performance improvement by drilling
lightening holes in all the cable crimps [1] on your bicycle.

[1] <http://harriscyclery.net/merchant/370/images/large/CA4104.jpg>.
[2]
[2] Yes, Ozark Bicycle, I am a shill.😉

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

G8RRPH said:

I had not expected the cynicism on a new, now getting cheaper,
technology that is being used by the pro peloton, is popular among
remote control car and aviation enthusiasts, and is used in auto
racing. I do not believe these groups and the resources at their
disposal would use ceramic if it didn't make a difference.

What may make a difference in a small engine that has operating speeds
in the tens of thousands of RPM, or RC racing cars where the wheels may
spin at thousands of RPM, is not going to make a significant difference
in a bicycle. For example, a top UCI rider in a time trial will have
wheels that are turning at less than 400 RPM on the flat sections.

You could expect a similar performance improvement by drilling
lightening holes in all the cable crimps [1] on your bicycle.

[1] <http://harriscyclery.net/merchant/370/images/large/CA4104.jpg>.
[2]
[2] Yes, Ozark Bicycle, I am a shill.😉

I read somewhere that the slower the speed of the device, the more
effect less friction will have.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

About 5 years ago I knew a gent that got me sets of ceramic ball
bearings in the popular 'bike' sizes..1/4, 3/16, 7/32 and
5/32...installed them into hubs, headsets, BBs....not very expensive
and geee....they didn't make any difference...c'mon people..reality
check!!!

I think that the technology is a little different now. Here an excerpt
from a Cycling News article: (Disclaimer, I'm not promoting ceramics
and don't have a clue. Maybe it's just FSA marketing bs. If they just
gotta have those low spoke count botique wheels, maybe they "deserve"
the ceramics as well)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/fsa/2006/2006.php

FSA's Claudio Marra explained to Cyclingnews that "our testing shows
that ceramic ball bearings are 20% more rigid, 10X rounder and 60%
lighter than standard steel ball bearings, which reduces friction. We
have found that using ceramic ball bearings can provide speed
increases of up to 4%, or a forty meters distance gained over every
kilometer."

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 18:41:27 GMT, R Brickston

rb20170REMOVE.yahoo.com@ said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

G8RRPH said:

I was wondering if anyone has retrofitted their bike to aftermarket
ceramic bearings? How hard would it be if one were to get the properly
sized sealed bearing to do this one their own? I used to change the
bearing on my inline skates and skateboards myself, so I think
technically it should be pretty straight forward. I have tried to find
info on the web about what size the bearings are in the bottom bracket,
the guide and tension pulleys, and of course the wheelsets, though I
think I can figure those out, it would be nice to see the specs in
writing form the manufacturer, and the Shimano website's exploded view
does not give this. any advice on if this is worth the effort, and any
info on bearing sizes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

About 5 years ago I knew a gent that got me sets of ceramic ball
bearings in the popular 'bike' sizes..1/4, 3/16, 7/32 and
5/32...installed them into hubs, headsets, BBs....not very expensive
and geee....they didn't make any difference...c'mon people..reality
check!!!

I think that the technology is a little different now. Here an excerpt
from a Cycling News article: (Disclaimer, I'm not promoting ceramics
and don't have a clue. Maybe it's just FSA marketing bs. If they just
gotta have those low spoke count botique wheels, maybe they "deserve"
the ceramics as well)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/fsa/2006/2006.php

FSA's Claudio Marra explained to Cyclingnews that "our testing shows
that ceramic ball bearings are 20% more rigid, 10X rounder and 60%
lighter than standard steel ball bearings, which reduces friction. We
have found that using ceramic ball bearings can provide speed
increases of up to 4%, or a forty meters distance gained over every
kilometer."

Dear R.,

Note the weasel-wording of "up to 4%"--it's very hard to come up with
plausible figures.

In 2006, the Tour leaders averaged about 27 mph. If they went 4%
faster, they'd have been going 28.08 mph.

Here's a speed calculator:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

For the default rider on the drops, 27 mph takes 375 watts.

(The Tour riders do a lot of drafting to get around this kind of raw
power requirement.)

To go 28.08 mph (4% faster) takes 417 watts, 11.2% more power.

(Wind drag is a beast--as speed rises, even tiny speed increases
require larger and larger power increases.)

It's unlikely that ordinary wheel and transmission bearings are
wasting 37 watts of power that the ceramic bearings could save.

After all, a good chain and set of gears will be 95% efficient and
lose less than 20 watts at the 375~400 watt level.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Hic astabo tantisper cum hac forma et factis frustra?" - Plautus

G8RRPH said:

My guess is the performance increase from using these is not going to
help as much as more training, and the cost is 2-3 times that of steel
bearings, (for one 6805 sealed cartridge, ceramic is about $60 US,
steel is about $30, and about $10 US for 20 1/4" ceramic bearings,
(thanks John))

Just a footnote to my earlier reply about bearing size: Dura-Ace model
7800 rear hubs use fourteen 3/16" balls in each cup. All their other
rear models have nine 1/4" balls per side as noted previously.

Quoted message said:

If I am willing and able to dump
cash into my bike, and if it gets me out more, whether from guilt or
whatever, then I am all the better.

I concur.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
Phone: 305-273-4440
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

R Brickston said:

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

G8RRPH said:

I had not expected the cynicism on a new, now getting cheaper,
technology that is being used by the pro peloton, is popular among
remote control car and aviation enthusiasts, and is used in auto
racing. I do not believe these groups and the resources at their
disposal would use ceramic if it didn't make a difference.

What may make a difference in a small engine that has operating speeds
in the tens of thousands of RPM, or RC racing cars where the wheels may
spin at thousands of RPM, is not going to make a significant difference
in a bicycle. For example, a top UCI rider in a time trial will have
wheels that are turning at less than 400 RPM on the flat sections.

You could expect a similar performance improvement by drilling
lightening holes in all the cable crimps [1] on your bicycle.

[1] <http://harriscyclery.net/merchant/370/images/large/CA4104.jpg>.
[2]
[2] Yes, Ozark Bicycle, I am a shill.😉

I read somewhere that the slower the speed of the device, the more
effect less friction will have.

Maybe as a percentage, but overall?

To use some hypothetical numbers, which has the greater overall effect:
a 1% reduction in friction on a wheel turning 200 RPM or a 0.1%
reduction on an engine at 40,000 RPM [1]?

[1] Not unheard of for RC aircraft and car engines.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.