cantis poor performance

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are?

They work just fine, if fitted correctly and if you are using the correct
levers.

Quoted message said:

I was used
to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a
more decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were.
The cheap v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle
deceleration I get from branded cantis. If I stand on the pedals and
squeeze the levers (really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls
forward, and I am not *that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of
the question of course. I thought it was probably that they needed
breaking in, but I've been using cantis for a year now and they are
even getting worse. I find hard to believe they are so bad,
considering pros use them, and I know I can improve things a little
if I use different compound blocks and clean the rims regularly, but
they are a joke, particularly when compared to v-brakes.

First thing I'd check is whether the levers are for V-brakes or Canti's.
There is a significant difference in the amount of cable pulled by each sort
of lever, and the wrong sort means the brakes don't work properly.

You used to be able to get flat-bar levers which would work for either; the
cable connected to different places on the lever for each type, but I would
expect that most bike shops now only have V-levers (see letter in this
month's CTC magazine on the topic).

If the levers pass as correct type, then I'd be looking at the straddle
cable, and the effective angles it creates. Sheldon Brown's site has an
article on setting straddle cables correctly.

Quoted message said:

One of the
front blocks even fell off yesterday!

Suggests bad installation or poor quality parts.

We have two Canti-equipped bikes in the household. Both stop fine, fully
laden, downhill.
There is also one bike with V's (probably stops a tad more powerfully, but
its an off-road bike), and one with dual-pivot road brakes (probably the
smoothest and most controlled stopping of the lot).
Bringing up the tail as the worst stopping of the household fleet is a bike
with old Weinmann single-pivot side-pull brakes, though even those have been
improved to "acceptable" with flat-bar canti levers and better brake blocks.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

On 29/07/2006 16:52, Michael Klontzas said,

Quoted message said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are?

No - the ones on my tourer are quite capable of chucking me over the
bars. I suggest you read:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=19

Quoted message said:

One of the front blocks even fell off yesterday!

I definitely suggest you read the above!!!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Michael Klontzas

(') said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are?

No. They are different from V brakes and need to be set up tight - I
don't honestly think this is any more difficult than setting up V brakes
right, but it is different and you need to learn how. But cantis have
the same effective leverage as Vs and properly adjusted are equally
effective.

Quoted message said:

I was used to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a
more decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were. The
cheap v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle
deceleration I get from branded cantis.

Racers don't normally have cantis - in fact the only 'racer' like bikes
which do are heavy tourers and cyclocross bikes. Racers normally have
either single pivot or dual pivot calipers. Single pivot are not very
good - the best ones can be but are quite fiddly to set up, and cheap
ones are just [censored]. But dual pivot calipers correctly set up will allow
you to lift the back wheel on a dry road, and you don't want brakes more
effective than that!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are? I was used to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a more
decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were. The cheap
v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle deceleration I
get from branded cantis. If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am not
*that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of course. I
thought it was probably that they needed breaking in, but I've been using
cantis for a year now and they are even getting worse. I find hard to
believe they are so bad, considering pros use them, and I know I can
improve things a little if I use different compound blocks and clean the
rims regularly, but they are a joke, particularly when compared to
v-brakes. One of the front blocks even fell off yesterday!

Get the straddle wire as low as possible, use canti or roller brake
levers (NOT V-brake levers), use decent pads like Kool-Stop salmon pads.
if you have the cantis with plain-post pads and eyebolts, I'd
recommend replacing them with Tektro Oryx to save frustration.

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are? I was used to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a more
decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were. The cheap
v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle deceleration I
get from branded cantis. If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am not
*that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of course. I
thought it was probably that they needed breaking in, but I've been using
cantis for a year now and they are even getting worse. I find hard to
believe they are so bad, considering pros use them, and I know I can
improve things a little if I use different compound blocks and clean the
rims regularly, but they are a joke, particularly when compared to
v-brakes. One of the front blocks even fell off yesterday!

Cantis work for me. One possibility I have read about recently is that
someone may have fitted V-brake levers to a canti-equipped bike.
V-brake levers pull more cable but at lower tension than the proper
levers and so give poor braking. Apparently not an uncommon mistake
even for people who should know better.

Peter

--
www.amey.org.uk

"Michael Klontzas" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am not
*that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of course.

I still use a sidepull Weinman on the back of one of my bikes. If I pull on
hard I only need to drop a gear or two to keep pedalling at normal effort
(it's actually quite a useful characteristic for a rear brake). To think
they used to sell these for use on the front! As an experiment I tried a
set of V blocks that will lock the front wheel on a different bike. No
change.

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are? I was used to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a more
decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were. The cheap
v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle deceleration I
get from branded cantis. If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am not
*that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of
course.

Your brakes can't be set up correctly. Cantis should be perfectly
capcble of locking the front wheel. <nips out to check> Yup, I can
stand on the pedals and lock the front wheel with relatively light
pressure on the front brake -- I still had lots of 'squeeze' in
reserve.

My brakes are Tectro Oryx, if it makes any difference.

Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

(') said:

"Michael Klontzas" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am
not *that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of
course.

I still use a sidepull Weinman on the back of one of my bikes. If I
pull on hard I only need to drop a gear or two to keep pedalling at
normal effort (it's actually quite a useful characteristic for a rear
brake). To think they used to sell these for use on the front! As an
experiment I tried a set of V blocks that will lock the front wheel on
a different bike. No change.

I used sidepull Weinmanns on my winter bike until a couple of years ago,
when (on an audax) a fast twisty downhill to a crossing across the main
A1 indicated to me the unwisdom of that... I bought Campagnolo brakes
the very next day. No further problems.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Tony Blair lies here.
Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.

Phil Armstrong said:

Your brakes can't be set up correctly. Cantis should be perfectly
capcble of locking the front wheel. <nips out to check> Yup, I can
stand on the pedals and lock the front wheel with relatively light
pressure on the front brake -- I still had lots of 'squeeze' in
reserve.

My brakes are Tectro Oryx, if it makes any difference.

How are they set up? I had Oryxs on my tourer when I bought it and
despite lots of tinkering, changing pads, changing link wires,
cleaning rims etc. I could never get any decent amount of braking
performance from them. I changed them for some cheap V brakes which
were fantastic when I first put them on and far better still now I've
tweaked and adjusted them.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

Phil Armstrong said:

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are? I was used to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a more
decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were. The cheap
v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle deceleration I
get from branded cantis. If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am not
*that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of
course.

Your brakes can't be set up correctly. Cantis should be perfectly
capcble of locking the front wheel. <nips out to check> Yup, I can
stand on the pedals and lock the front wheel with relatively light
pressure on the front brake -- I still had lots of 'squeeze' in
reserve.

My brakes are Tectro Oryx, if it makes any difference.

Phil

you might need to shorten the stradle cable
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Chris Eilbeck said:

Phil Armstrong said:

Your brakes can't be set up correctly. Cantis should be perfectly
capcble of locking the front wheel. <nips out to check> Yup, I can
stand on the pedals and lock the front wheel with relatively light
pressure on the front brake -- I still had lots of 'squeeze' in
reserve.

My brakes are Tectro Oryx, if it makes any difference.

How are they set up? I had Oryxs on my tourer when I bought it and
despite lots of tinkering, changing pads, changing link wires,
cleaning rims etc. I could never get any decent amount of braking
performance from them. I changed them for some cheap V brakes which
were fantastic when I first put them on and far better still now I've
tweaked and adjusted them.

Will a photo do? There's nothing special about the setup (the pads
are'nt even very central -- the right pad moves much more than the
left one! Although once the pads are on the rims the setup gives even
braking force as far as I can tell). Sorry about the focus, it's just
a quick shot (this is my daily commute bike -- a very grubby Dawes
Horizon):

http://www.kantaka.co.uk/i/

I've found that keeping the surface of the pads clean, and wiping the
rims down occasionally has the most noticable effect on braking power.
The pads pick up crud over time and eventually become very slick.

cheers, Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt

"Nigel Cliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are?

They work just fine, if fitted correctly and if you are using the correct
levers.

I've got the Tetro Oryx ones on my Dawes Horizon (they seem to use V-brake
pads though!) and they do the job including emergency stops.

Earlier in the year (when I lived in Reading) I was riding back from work;
two other cyclists were approaching from the other direction towards town
(one on an MTB, the other on a road bike) ; when a kitten decided to dart
out from underneath a car and all *three* of us had to jam on our brakes.

All of us were unharmed but a bit shaken (apart from the kitten which did
not seem to at all bothered by the incident).

Alex
--
Mr R@T / General Lighting
Ipswich, Suffolk, Untied Kingdom
http://www.partyvibe.com

Quoting Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Get the straddle wire as low as possible,

Not necessarily - you may just use up all the lever travel on getting the
pads to the rim. My usual advice is to have the straddle wire at the point
where you can just bottom out the lever with your full grip.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Epithumia, July - a weekend.

David Damerell said:

Quoting Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Get the straddle wire as low as possible,

Not necessarily - you may just use up all the lever travel on getting the
pads to the rim. My usual advice is to have the straddle wire at the point
where you can just bottom out the lever with your full grip.

I would say to the point where you can /almost/ bottom out the lever,
otherwise you have no allowance at all for brake block wear.

--
Dave...

I'd say that well-adjusted cantis give perfectly strong performance,
but there is a noticeable difference in braking performance between the
average canti and the average v-brake. I put that down to the fact that
cantis are more sensitive to set up and adjustment. In fact, the main
reason I prefer v-brakes is that cantis go out of adjustment too
easily.

Must plug centrepull brakes here: (e.g. Weinmann Vainqueurs, Mafacs).
Better than sidepulls and cantis for roadbikes. Reliable, stay centred,
powerful, versatile reach, adjust once a year. Cons: would foul canti
mounting bosses, not suitable for ATBs.

O.

M-gineering said:

Phil Armstrong said:

Michael Klontzas said:

Are cantis as hopeless as I think they are? I was used to bog-standard
v-brakes and when I upgraded to a decent Scott hybrid and later to a more
decent Trek racer I couldn't believe how bad the brakes were. The cheap
v-brakes were scaringly effective compared to the gentle deceleration I
get from branded cantis. If I stand on the pedals and squeeze the levers
(really hard compared to v-brakes) the bikes rolls forward, and I am not
*that* heavy. Real emergency stopping is out of the question of
course.

In article <[email hidden]>

grannyhalfstep said:

I'd say that well-adjusted cantis give perfectly strong performance,
but there is a noticeable difference in braking performance between the
average canti and the average v-brake. I put that down to the fact that
cantis are more sensitive to set up and adjustment. In fact, the main
reason I prefer v-brakes is that cantis go out of adjustment too
easily.

I don't see why cantis would go out of adjustment any faster than V-
brakes - the distance from the pivot to the block is identical on canti
and V, so adjustment for block wear should be the same for either.
There is certainly more opportunity to make a hash of the setup with
cantis than V-brakes, but once properly adjusted they should work as
well and for as long as V-brakes.

grannyhalfstep said the following on 01/08/2006 23:30:

Quoted message said:

In fact, the main
reason I prefer v-brakes is that cantis go out of adjustment too
easily.

Really? Someone else with them set up wrong! The only time mine are
adjusted is when I replace the blocks, apart from a twiddle of the cable
now and then to compensate for wear.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>,

grannyhalfstep (') said:

Must plug centrepull brakes here: (e.g. Weinmann Vainqueurs, Mafacs).
Better than sidepulls and cantis for roadbikes. Reliable, stay centred,
powerful, versatile reach, adjust once a year. Cons: would foul canti
mounting bosses, not suitable for ATBs.

Don't agree. Can't speak for the Mafacs which may be all right; there's
nothing wrong with the essential design, and if reasonably well
engineered out of reasonable quality material they should work. But I
used Weinmann centrepulls for about twenty years over many tens of
thousands of miles before I could afford anything better (and still have
one bike with them on), and my view is that they can only be considered
powerful when compared to Weinmann sidepull callipers, which are
completely useless.

But Weinmann centrepulls are fairly useless. I agree that they're /very/
easy to adjust, and relatively low maintenance - it was for their ease
of adjustment that I used to use them. But nothing like as good as a
good quality dual pivot calliper.

I suppose they're OK if you live in fairly flat country and don't carry
much weight on the bike - they are /extremely/ easy to set up.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Due to financial constraints, the light at the end of the tunnel
has been switched off.

In article <[email hidden]>

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

grannyhalfstep (') said:

Must plug centrepull brakes here: (e.g. Weinmann Vainqueurs, Mafacs).
Better than sidepulls and cantis for roadbikes. Reliable, stay centred,
powerful, versatile reach, adjust once a year. Cons: would foul canti
mounting bosses, not suitable for ATBs.

Don't agree. Can't speak for the Mafacs which may be all right; there's
nothing wrong with the essential design, and if reasonably well
engineered out of reasonable quality material they should work. But I
used Weinmann centrepulls for about twenty years over many tens of
thousands of miles before I could afford anything better (and still have
one bike with them on), and my view is that they can only be considered
powerful when compared to Weinmann sidepull callipers, which are
completely useless.

I still have Weinmann 405s on my road bike and they work fine.