Can I improve? If so, how?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am 48 years old and have been running for over 20 years. Obviously I
stop occasionally to sleep, eat and father children.

In 2003, while in training for London, I ran 37m 02s for 10k, and a 1h
21m 42s Half Marathon. Prior to this, my average times for the
distances were around 38m 30s and 1h 23m.

Since then, I've struggled to break 40m for the 10k and can rarely get
below 1h 30m for the half.

I realise that my age is not necessarily in my favour, but I also know
that endurance tails off much slower than raw speed with age. For
example, I have a friend who tried for years to break 3 hours for the
marathon, finally succeeding at the age of 53. I have another friend
who is still running very fast times (sub 1h 20m Half recently) and he
is 62.

I believe that I can get back to some sort of form, but I need help.
I'm more or less the same weight as ever (I'm 5' 10" and 10st 8lb). A
typical training week would be

SUN: Long run, mostly on road - normally about 1h 45m to 2h
MON: 7 miles
TUE: EITHER circuit training OR effort *
WED: 7 - 8 miles
THUR: EITHER circuit training OR effort *
FRI: EITHER circuit training OR easy 3 - 4 miles
SAT: Rest

* effort would be something like:
6 x 800m with 1m recovery
4 x 1000m with 90s recovery
24 x 30s hills (or 6 x 1m, 12 x 30s, 6 x 1m) jog down recovery
6 - 7 miles fartlek

This training regime hasn't changed much for the past ten years. The
only differences are that the Sunday run used to be mainly off-road, on
a local hill with plenty of ups and downs, but too much mud for my
liking in the winter (hence the switch to road). Also, on Tuesday,
Thursdays and Fridays I used to do only circuit training which I did at
very high intensity. I've introduced the effort sessions in the last
couple of years as I've hooked up with a group (I do all the rest of my
training alone now that my training partner has gone to Australia).

Edward
--
The reading group's reading group:
http://www.bookgroup.org.uk

Hi Edward,

Maybe you should look at going off road again on Sundays. I think you
are saying that your slow down has occurred since stopping this run so maybe
this isn't coincidental. Get yourself some trail/fell shoes for the winter,
running in the mud isn't too bad ;-)
Perhaps you could build up your mileage a little maybe run twice a day a
couple of time.
You've got tons of experience and if there were an easy answer I'm sure you
wouldn't need us to tell you.

Regards,

Bob

no

Quoted message said:

I am 48 years old and have been running for over 20 years. Obviously I
stop occasionally to sleep, eat and father children.

In 2003, while in training for London, I ran 37m 02s for 10k, and a 1h
21m 42s Half Marathon. Prior to this, my average times for the
distances were around 38m 30s and 1h 23m.

What did your marathon training look like ? Were you running the same mileage
etc as you are now ? Did you do speed work during your marathon training,
or was it the same as your other training ?

Quoted message said:

Since then, I've struggled to break 40m for the 10k and can rarely get
below 1h 30m for the half.

I realise that my age is not necessarily in my favour, but I also know
that endurance tails off much slower than raw speed with age. For

You wouldn't expect to fall off that much in 2 years though.

I'm wondering if there's anything that's changed in the space between your
London marathon training and now.

Quoted message said:

I believe that I can get back to some sort of form, but I need help.
I'm more or less the same weight as ever (I'm 5' 10" and 10st 8lb). A
typical training week would be

[snip]

How often do you do the "effort" ? Circuit training is fine off-season, but
interval workouts and circuit training are *not* interchangeable. The interval
workout is the highest quality training you do, whereas circuit training is
the least specific of all your training.

Quoted message said:

This training regime hasn't changed much for the past ten years. The

Did you have any substantial layoffs, backoffs, falloffs or setbacks between
2003 and now ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Bob Watkinson said:

Maybe you should look at going off road again on Sundays. I think you
are saying that your slow down has occurred since stopping this run so maybe
this isn't coincidental. Get yourself some trail/fell shoes for the winter,
running in the mud isn't too bad ;-)

Are you suggesting that running on the road may have caused his 10k time to
slow down by 3 minutes ? I think this is a red herring.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

I'm the world record marathon holder, so you going to listen to that
skinny wimp Rebecchi? Or me?

Quoted message said:

I'm the world record marathon holder,

No you're not.

-- TPT

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am 48 years old and have been running for over 20 years. Obviously I
stop occasionally to sleep, eat and father children.

I hope that's not in the order of priority. ;o)

Quoted message said:

In 2003, while in training for London, I ran 37m 02s for 10k, and a 1h
21m 42s Half Marathon. Prior to this, my average times for the
distances were around 38m 30s and 1h 23m.

Since then, I've struggled to break 40m for the 10k and can rarely get
below 1h 30m for the half.

Can you describe how you've struggled? Is it running a varied race pace
that throws you off, is it inability to sustain a steady pace? Are you
running negative or even splits? Is it hills? A little more detail
comparing how you prepared and felt during your London training vs. now
would be helpful.

Quoted message said:

SUN: Long run, mostly on road - normally about 1h 45m to 2h
MON: 7 miles
TUE: EITHER circuit training OR effort *
WED: 7 - 8 miles
THUR: EITHER circuit training OR effort *
FRI: EITHER circuit training OR easy 3 - 4 miles
SAT: Rest

* effort would be something like:
6 x 800m with 1m recovery
4 x 1000m with 90s recovery
24 x 30s hills (or 6 x 1m, 12 x 30s, 6 x 1m) jog down recovery
6 - 7 miles fartlek

Can you describe your splits and/or dynamics of your 6x800 or 4x1000m
workouts? Do you finish each interval faster or slower, do you run your
fastest intervals last? How do you taper for your races?

Quoted message said:

This training regime hasn't changed much for the past ten years. The
only differences are that the Sunday run used to be mainly off-road, on
a local hill with plenty of ups and downs, but too much mud for my
liking in the winter (hence the switch to road). Also, on Tuesday,
Thursdays and Fridays I used to do only circuit training which I did at
very high intensity.

I'm not into circuit training, but by all accounts it's not like either
the aerobic or anaerobic requirements of distance running. It's more of a
cross-training. Don't give it up, but I would strive for the
effort/interval training on a more regular basis.

Being a guy with power and not speed, I've always found I run my fastest
10ks when training for a 5k, and so on. Try putting in some 400s, and
always run them in such a way that you run your highest intensity repeats
last. Earlier in your 'season', keep the rest intervals short and intensity
under control, and aim for volume (say, 6x1000m, with 400-800m very easy jog
recovery). Run some training races, say 5ks to prepare for 10ks, etc.
There are a few good speed workouts I'll offer also: a :40/:20 run, done on
a track, where you run 40sec fast and 20sec slow continously for 15 minutes.
Even with warmup and cooldown, this workout can be done in 30 minutes in a
pinch. Another is 3:00/2:00, which you can do on any course, where it's
3min fast and 2min slow for 30 minutes.
Another workout I used to do weekly is an up-tempo run, where the first
mile was easy warmup, but the rest was on the clock - 3 to 7 miles fast. At
the time (when I was fast) we would start at 5:45 for the first mile, and
steadily work down each mile split by 5 sec, finishing as quick as 5:15 to
5:25. Of course, I had the benefit of a marked course and a group of fast
runners to push each other, but still these runs were great confidence
builders and really built up power in the aerobic/anaerobic range. They
bridge the gap between the hard track work and the volume recovery miles.
Plus the comfort in running fast negative splits is a huge asset in
competition and setting fast times.

In the last few weeks of your season, take fuller breaks, do fewer
repeats, and do higher intensity - all out in the last repeat. Keep your
distance runs and recovery runs a little shorter too. You should feel much
fresher, and I find I have about 2-4 weeks at this peak where I keep my
mileage volume low and my interval training is crisp and fast.

Quoted message said:

I've introduced the effort sessions in the last
couple of years as I've hooked up with a group (I do all the rest of my
training alone now that my training partner has gone to Australia).

I think this is a good thing to continue with - the interval and speed
training really, really drops times. If you're not making 'seasons' out of
your training, I think you should. Training continuously is nice for
fitness, but not fast times.
Running in a group is vital to wring the most effectiveness from these
sessions. If you're serious about lowering your times, do everything you
can to network and group yourself with runners of similar or slightly faster
capabilities. I understand that's often not possible, but for the amount of
time/effort already invested, it's silly to not try.

Dave

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

What did your marathon training look like ? Were you running the same

mileage

Quoted message said:

etc as you are now ? Did you do speed work during your marathon

training,

Quoted message said:

or was it the same as your other training ?

My training volume increased, and I was sometimes training twice a day.
I was doing speedwork as well. However, what is most germane for me
is that prior to the marathon training I was running substantially
quicker than I am now, on almost exactly the same schedule.

Quoted message said:

How often do you do the "effort" ? Circuit training is fine

off-season, but

Quoted message said:

interval workouts and circuit training are *not* interchangeable. The

interval

Quoted message said:

workout is the highest quality training you do, whereas circuit

training is

Quoted message said:

the least specific of all your training.

It's also what I done consistently, twice or three times per week, for
the past ten years.

Quoted message said:

Did you have any substantial layoffs, backoffs, falloffs or setbacks

between

Quoted message said:

2003 and now ?

Nothing substantial, no. The longest would be about a week - 10 days.

My current thinking is that I might be training too hard all the time -
I don't like running slowly (slower than, say, 7.5 min/mile). Also,
the point I raised about my long Sunday run might be relevant, since
the hill I run on is pretty steep and big, whereas my Sunday road
routes are all more or less flat.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

Edward

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2005-05-17, Bob Watkinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Maybe you should look at going off road again on Sundays. I think you
are saying that your slow down has occurred since stopping this run so
maybe
this isn't coincidental. Get yourself some trail/fell shoes for the
winter,
running in the mud isn't too bad ;-)

Are you suggesting that running on the road may have caused his 10k time
to
slow down by 3 minutes ? I think this is a red herring.

Yes quite possibly. Depending on the severity of his off-road work, mud and
hills can give vital vital strength building workouts due to the resistance
effect which he now may be lacking. Strength is a key element for speed. I
wouldn't be so quick to call red herring.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Perhaps not such a red herring. His description of the session sounds
more like strength training than a long run. Even if his speed is
lowered because of the terrain, he will still reap major conditioning
benefits compared to a similar amount of time on the roads. Soft ground
returns less of your effort compared to a hard surface, requires more
effort to maintain similar speed. Uneven surface calls up different
muscles, tendons and the prioception benefits. And the mud and hills.

This is a real meat and potatoes session which can't be replaced with a
run on the roads. You have to have strength before you can go fast, and
the total body benefits of the circuit training may have been the
combination he needed, as opposed to just speed work, as his description
of the circuit training sound like a combination of lactate and cross
training.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Bob Watkinson said:

Maybe you should look at going off road again on Sundays. I think you
are saying that your slow down has occurred since stopping this run so maybe
this isn't coincidental. Get yourself some trail/fell shoes for the winter,
running in the mud isn't too bad ;-)

Are you suggesting that running on the road may have caused his 10k time to
slow down by 3 minutes ? I think this is a red herring.

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

My training volume increased, and I was sometimes training twice a day.
I was doing speedwork as well. However, what is most germane for me
is that prior to the marathon training I was running substantially
quicker than I am now, on almost exactly the same schedule.

The way I see it, there are two separate issues here -- I suppose one of them
is that you were able to use a certain strategy to ramp up for the London
marathon. Presumably, that strategy would probably work if you were to try
it again.

But the deeper issue is your base level of fitness, which seems to be dropping
a little.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How often do you do the "effort" ? Circuit training is fine
off-season, but interval workouts and circuit training are *not*
interchangeable. The interval workout is the highest quality training you
do, whereas circuit training is the least specific of all your training.

It's also what I done consistently, twice or three times per week, for
the past ten years.

There's nothing wrong with circuit training, but in terms of workload, recovery
and training effect, it's very different to interval work.

So for example, "circuit training or effort" could mean two interval workouts
a week or it could mean two circuit training workouts a week. Which one will
work better ? I don't know. The circuit training will be easier on recovery,
the interval workouts are more specific.

But either way, it's really important to distinguish between the two, so that
you're attentive to shifts between one and the other.

For example, I think you mentioned that you've moved from circuit training
towards interval work ? So it's possible that you've silently replaced a part
of your training that was fairly easy on recovery (or at least placed demands
on your system largely orthogonal to that of training runs) to something more
demanding.

Quoted message said:

Nothing substantial, no. The longest would be about a week - 10 days.

My current thinking is that I might be training too hard all the time -
I don't like running slowly (slower than, say, 7.5 min/mile). Also,

I agree that slowing down training runs would help. 7:30 is too fast, at least
it's too fast if you want to do the sort of training you want to do (speed work,
long runs, reasonable mileage)

Quoted message said:

the point I raised about my long Sunday run might be relevant, since
the hill I run on is pretty steep and big, whereas my Sunday road
routes are all more or less flat.

Given that you've been training consistently, training fairly hard, not really
backing off much, and still slowing down -- probably the best thing you could
do for now is try to undertrain a little bit. Take a break from speed work, or
do less of it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Bob Watkinson said:

Yes quite possibly. Depending on the severity of his off-road work, mud and
hills can give vital vital strength building workouts due to the resistance
effect which he now may be lacking.

If his old workout was a session of hard hill reps, then it makes a lot of
difference not because of the hill, but because he's replaced an "anaerobic
repetitions" session with a long run (almost opposite types of training).

On the other hand, a long run on hills is not much of a "strength" workout.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Bumper said:

Perhaps not such a red herring. His description of the session sounds
more like strength training than a long run.

If the run was over 90 minutes, then it's more like a long run. If he replaced
a session of hill reps with a slow long run, then I agree that this is a major
change.

I don't understand why anyone would consider a hill repetitions session
interchangeable with a long run, but then what do I know ? I wouldn't have
considered circuit training interchangeable with speed work either.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Given that you've been training consistently, training fairly hard, not
really
backing off much, and still slowing down -- probably the best thing you
could
do for now is try to undertrain a little bit. Take a break from speed
work, or
do less of it.

Edward, I agree with Donovan here. Of what you said, the only thing that
jumps out at me is the absence of seasonal peaks and rest phases, as well as
taking it easy on distance runs. Recovery runs must be recovery - perhaps a
heart monitor will help in regulating your effort there.

Dave

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

no

Wey Hey Hey we have our very own troll to play with folks. How wonderful
:-))))). I do hope it will stay and amuse us for a while.

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I am 48 years old and have been running for over 20 years. Obviously I
stop occasionally to sleep, eat and father children.

In 2003, while in training for London, I ran 37m 02s for 10k, and a 1h
21m 42s Half Marathon. Prior to this, my average times for the
distances were around 38m 30s and 1h 23m.

Since then, I've struggled to break 40m for the 10k and can rarely get
below 1h 30m for the half.

Yes, that's quite a slump. Been there, done that. Overtraining,
under-recovery. Sometimes you need to step back and go into a "three step"
plan: rest, gradual build-up, then sharpening. It's very hard (especially
as we get older) to keep your kind of training intensity month after month.

Quoted message said:

I realise that my age is not necessarily in my favour, but I also know
that endurance tails off much slower than raw speed with age.

Well, we do slow, and some of us slow more than others, especially if we've
done alot of intense running for many years. I know of of a 13 minute 5k
runner who at age 55 can barely break 20 -- in fact he hung it up in
frustration.

Quoted message said:

I have another friend
who is still running very fast times (sub 1h 20m Half recently) and he
is 62.

This is equivalent to a 1:05 for a young man. He's truly elite.

Quoted message said:

A typical training week would be

SUN: Long run, mostly on road - normally about 1h 45m to 2h
MON: 7 miles
TUE: EITHER circuit training OR effort *
WED: 7 - 8 miles
THUR: EITHER circuit training OR effort *
FRI: EITHER circuit training OR easy 3 - 4 miles
SAT: Rest

* effort would be something like:
6 x 800m with 1m recovery
4 x 1000m with 90s recovery
24 x 30s hills (or 6 x 1m, 12 x 30s, 6 x 1m) jog down recovery
6 - 7 miles fartlek

This training regime hasn't changed much for the past ten years.

Before I give my impressions, a little background: I've run for 25 years,
and was fairly competitive in my salad days (33:35 10k, 2:37 marathon).
I've worked my way into slumps (and still do it from time to time), and
gotten back out several times.

(David G, who asked you some good questions, is an elite runner, and much
faster than I ever was -- I'd listen to what he has to say)

My 2 cents worth:

I'm kind of struck by intense sameness of it all, imo.
Your training is what I might do when peaking in the 4-5 weeks before a
race.
Doing this week in and week out would get me overtired and stale --
especially as I get older and need more recovery time.

To get past this stale period, I would recover and regroup:
Take a few days off. Then a few weeks of easy distance.
Then 3 weeks of hills or moderate paced runs 2-3 days/week.
Then return to your twice weekly speedwork -- but I'd only for a few weeks
to peak for a race or series of races.
If you want to race weekly, I'd back off to one speed session/week, and ease
a bit on the pace on the other days.
Even with that, you might find yourself digging a hole after a while.
It's very hard to maintain a peak for a long period.

I suggest you move the day off to be after your long run -- that's when you
need it most.

Circuit training isn't very running specific, I'd lose it, or scale back if
you need to work on certain muscle groups. (Most competitive runners I know
don't do much else than run). I think you're better off running 7 miles
than exhausting yourself doing various non-running anerobic exercises.

Finally, I think that the recovery periods in your speedwork is too short.
You'll be able to run your intervals faster with a longer recovery -- isn't
it called speedwork?

Elite guys shorten the recovery as they sharpen just prior to a big race,
often in conjunction with fewer reps, shorter distances, and reduced
mileage. I think a steady diet of short recovery speedwork is not optimal.

Quoted message said:

I've introduced the effort sessions in the last
couple of years as I've hooked up with a group (I do all the rest of my
training alone now that my training partner has gone to Australia).

My guess is that you're doing just a bit too much, and you're digging
yourself deeper and deeper. Time to regroup and build up again.

Good Luck,

Dan

Oh, you're talking about jogging...............I was hoping you were
going to improve your personality, your taste in clothes, and that goofy
haircut.

On 2005-05-17, Dan Stumpus <[email hidden]> wrote:
[good stuff snipped]

A lot of good stuff in this post. I think the emerging consensus is that this
is a recovery issue.

Regarding issues like cross training, short versus long recoveries, etc -- there
are different philosophies on these things, but on cross training -- he and many
other good masters athletes have had success with programs that included this,
and it was one of the elements of the program that worked for him before. Re
length of recoveries -- we all have our preferences, but I think you'd be hard
pressed to provide convincing evidence that long recoveries are "better". There
are very good coaches and athletes who used short recoveries all the time, or
prior to sharpening.

Being able to run the reps faster does not necessarily make the workout more
effective (if that were true, no-one would train hard at altitude), and it's
called "speed work" because finding a good umbrella term to include tempos,
short/long intervals, cruise reps, anaerobic reps, hills, etc is nearly
impossible, so we're stuck with lousy terms like "speed work".

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Didn't you just type that same unfunny [censored] in rec.sport.golf? haha, that's
why I didn't killfiile you - it's amusing to watch someone who can't even
troll. I bet I could write a bot that is more interesting.

Dave

"Miss Anne Thrope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oh, you're talking about jogging...............I was hoping you were
going to improve your personality, your taste in clothes, and that goofy
haircut.