Butted vs. straight-gauge spokes

In article said:

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are built
this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as well,
and didn't recommend them.

Butted spokes (even DT Revolutions although they're harder to build with) hold up fine and build
into a stronger wheel than straight-gauged as explained in _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt.

Personally, if I didn't build my own wheels I wouldn't trust people parotting such superstitions to
do it for me.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear Torelli Masters. An all-around
road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters.

With a beer gut I weigh 175. In spite of jumping off curbs with said belly, a back pack, and 23mm
Continentals 32 hole Mavic Reflex rims laced cross-3 with 14/15 spokes on the rear drive side and DT
revos elsewhere hold up fine (as in don't go out of true);

--
<a href="poohsticks.orgdrewOpen ↗">Home Page</a> The Congress shall assemble at least once in
every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law
appoint a different Day.

<< So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are
built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as
well, and didn't recommend them. Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear
Torelli Masters. An all-around road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters. >>

Straight gauge spokes are preferred when wheels need to be build quickly and when maximum rigidity
is necessary. Butted spokes will "give" a little under load, which results in a wheel that is more
comfortable to ride, and actually more durable over the long term. Swaging the spokes work-hardens
them, increasing their strength. And, of course, butted spokes are lighter and slightly more
aerodynamic. Double butted spokes only cost pennies more than straight gauge. It is always easier
and faster to build wheels with straight gauge. Evidently, the guy at the shop doesn't have the time
or the expertise to do it right. Maybe you should look for someone else. I weigh the same as you,
180. My wheels are all 32 hole in the back with
14/15/14 db spokes. In front, I ride the same set-up, or 15/16/15g for a little lighter wheel. I
use brass nips and a sensible lacing pattern (3 cross). No problems in tens of thousands of
miles ridden.

Joseph Kubera said:

Hi, all.

I need to have wheels built (my choice of parts) for the new bike, and figured the local shop
could do it since I'm asking them to build the bike anyway.

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are
built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as
well, and didn't recommend them.

Any thoughts on this?

Find a new shop guy.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you
underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." --Matt Groening

"Joseph Kubera" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, all.

I need to have wheels built (my choice of parts) for the new bike, and

figured

Quoted message said:

the local shop could do it since I'm asking them to build the bike anyway.

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot

of

Quoted message said:

nice wheels are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they

cost

Quoted message said:

twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them.

Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear

Torelli

Quoted message said:

Masters. An all-around road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters.

Thanks. Joe

In his article at URL sheldonbrown.comwheelbuild.htmlOpen ↗ Sheldon Brown says: "Double-butted
spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as
straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes
effectively more elastic. This allows them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily stressed
spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly
desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around
the spoke hole."

The points that Jobst Brandt makes are: "Butted spokes..... give more durable wheels. They are more
elastic than unbutted spokes because their thin mid-sections stretch more and they can be made just
as tight as unbutted spokes. Under load, they resist loosening better than straight spokes. Their
resilience helps the rim distribute loads over more spokes and reduces peak stress changes. Butted
spokes are lighter without giving up any strength." In the back of Jobst Brant's book under "SPOKE
STRENGTH" Jobst goes on to say: "The results show that there is little measurable difference in
strength among these spokes (DT unbutted, DT butted, Wheelsmith unbutted, and Wheelsmith butted) and
suggest that their differences, if any, lie in fatigue characteristics that depend on their alloy,
temper, butting, and how they are built into a wheel."

Jobst's last point "how they are built into a wheel" , in my opinion, makes the most significant
difference in the reliability of the wheel.

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

"Joseph Kubera" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, all.

I need to have wheels built (my choice of parts) for the new bike, and

figured

Quoted message said:

the local shop could do it since I'm asking them to build the bike anyway.

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot

of

Quoted message said:

nice wheels are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they

cost

Quoted message said:

twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them.

Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear

Torelli

Quoted message said:

Masters. An all-around road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters.

Everyone has their opinion but few share that of your LBS, who seems not to be familar with the
building of bicycle wheels. Will they build as you require? If not, is there another shop nearby?

Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel, page 46-7: of swadged spokes, "The diameter reduction increases spoke
elasticity, increases strength by work hardening, and reduces weight. However, the most valuable
contribution of swadging is that peak stresses are absorbed in the straight midsection rather than
concentrated in the threads and elbow, thereby substantially reducing fatigue failures."
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Benjamin Lewis said:

Joseph Kubera said:

Hi, all.

I need to have wheels built (my choice of parts) for the new bike, and figured the local shop
could do it since I'm asking them to build the bike anyway.

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are
built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as
well, and didn't recommend them.

Any thoughts on this?

Find a new shop guy.

Agreed. There is one reason why many shops recommend straight-gauge spokes. They have a machine that
cuts spokes to length, and rolls threads. That way, they stock a bunch of long, straight-gauge
spokes and cut them to size as needed, rather than stocking lots of sizes. Butted spokes obviously
can't be re-cut, except for small changes.

The issue is shop inventory, not performance. I agree with Sheldon that butted spokes build up a
more durable wheel. They cost a little more, not twice as much. Fer instance, Nashbar sells packs of
20 14/15 spokes for $12.95, 14 gauge for $8.95, Actually, I think that $12.95 is a bit high, and you
can probably do better.

Speaking of doing better, find another shop, someone who won't try to blow smoke up your ass.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front _`\(,_ | of enough
typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of (_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the
collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has proven this not to be the case.

Quoted message said:

<< So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a

lot

Quoted message said:

of nice wheels are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they

cost

Quoted message said:

twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them. Any thoughts on this? BTW, I
was going to use 32 front and 36 rear

Torelli

Quoted message said:

Masters. An all-around road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters. >>

"Mike Krueger" <[email hidden]> , gilding the lily, wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Straight gauge spokes are preferred when wheels need to be build quickly

and

Quoted message said:

when maximum rigidity is necessary. Butted spokes will "give" a little

under

Quoted message said:

load, which results in a wheel that is more comfortable to ride, and

actually

Quoted message said:

more durable over the long term. Swaging the spokes work-hardens them, increasing their strength.
And, of course, butted spokes are lighter and slightly more aerodynamic. Double butted spokes only
cost pennies more than straight gauge. It is

always

Quoted message said:

easier and faster to build wheels with straight gauge. Evidently, the guy

at

Quoted message said:

the shop doesn't have the time or the expertise to do it right. Maybe you should look for someone
else. I weigh the same as you, 180. My wheels are all 32 hole in the back with
14/15/14 db spokes. In front, I ride the same set-up, or 15/16/15g for a

little

Quoted message said:

lighter wheel. I use brass nips and a sensible lacing pattern (3 cross).

No

Quoted message said:

problems in tens of thousands of miles ridden.

I bet you cannot "feel" the "comfort" of a butted spoke versus a straight one. I'd bet real money on
that, actually. Wheels are a rigid figure for these purposes.

And I don't know about you but I build as fast with the more flexible butted ones. Certainly not
any slower.
--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Another important factor is how wheels taco.

If you compress the wheel enough to unload spokes the rim can move off the centerline. When tension
is re-applied in that state, the wheel turns into a pringle.

Tension is limitted by the rim strength, so both thin and thick spokes will start at the same
tension in a well-built wheel.

However thinner spokes stretch more at a given tension; so you need to compress the rim more to make
them slack. That in turn requires more force, so it takes a bigger blow to destroy a thin-spoked
wheel than a thick.

A butted spoke has the thick spoke's strength in the threads, but builds into a wheel that otherwise
shares the thin-spoked wheel's superior characteristics.
--
<a href="poohsticks.orgdrewOpen ↗">Home Page</a> The Congress shall assemble at least once in
every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law
appoint a different Day.

In article said:

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are
built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as
well, and didn't recommend them.

Any thoughts on this?

He's right, they cost about twice as much. He's also ignorant if he thinks they don't hold up
as well as butted spokes. Get your wheels built elsewhere, by someone who actually knows stuff
like this.

David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Agreed. There is one reason why many shops recommend straight-gauge spokes. They have a machine
that cuts spokes to length, and rolls threads. That way, they stock a bunch of long,
straight-gauge spokes and cut them to size as needed, rather than stocking lots of sizes. Butted
spokes obviously can't be re-cut, except for small changes.

Agree with everything else, but I have to ask about the above: Have you really seen lots of shops
with spoke cutters? I've seen one, and they didn't use the cutter.* Maybe you frequent a
better-equipped class of shops than I do. Are shops who really use these cutters that common?
Wouldn't the labor costs exceed the inventory costs? (I'm beginning to think that shops who build
wheels are becoming rare.)

*Amusing tech trivia/nostalgia bit: Long ago, I had a Claud Butler tandem (late 40's early 50's was
my best estimate of its birthdate), the model with the ultra-short chainstay and curved seat tube.
It had huge-flanged 3-piece airlite hubs with 13-14 single-butt spokes - 13g at the hub, 14g at the
rim. When I got the bike, it had Dunlop steel clincher rims. I set the bike up as fixed gear for
fooling around at the velodrome, and wanted a better rim (sewup? hook-bead? can't recall, we were
just fooling around, after all). This required shorter spokes, and I couldn't find anybody selling
13-14g spokes at the time, so off to the shops to see who had a spoke cutter. Found a shop with one
(Eldi, IIRC), and arranged to use it (the folk there didn't seem to want to touch the tool OR the
spokes). It was a cutter and not a roller, but it did tolerably well. Sold the bike many years ago;
I think I've since seen 13-14 spokes advertised.

PS - If anyone can better date that Butler (those chainstays were very distinctive, you'd remember
it if you'd seen them), I'd love to hear it. If anyone wants to buy that Dunlop rim, I'd love to
hear that too.

Back to the present day, (and are shops using those spoke cutters that common?)
--
Mark Janeba remove antispam phrase in address to reply

kuber-<< So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels
are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as
well, and didn't recommend them.

Don't cost twice as much and double butted spokes make a more durable wheel, all other things
being equal.

Sounds like he may have a bunch of straight gauge spokes and doesn't want to but DB ones..

<< Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear Torelli Masters. An all-around
road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters.

GREAT choice, hopefully the gent knows what he is doing, wheelbuuild wise..

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

They don't cost 2x as much. Usually, 1.5x. I think in the Los Angeles area maybe $,50/straight and
$.75 butted.

I read here many times that technically the butted spokes are a better choice. Personally, I see no
difference in my wheels. I frequently use straight 14 ga. on drive side and straight 15 elsewhere. I
weigh 200 lbs.

My personal gripe about the Torelli Master is that it seemed more difficult to mount tires on. I
have not had that problem with other rims and take off and mount everything w/o tools.

(Joseph Kubera) said:

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are built
this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they cost twice as much and don't hold up as well,
and didn't recommend them.

I believe butted blanks are available. Actually, I don't know why the need for the 2nd butting at
the threaded end is necessary in the first place. Spokes don't seem to break there.

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:57:27 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Agreed. There is one reason why many shops recommend straight-gauge spokes. They have a machine
that cuts spokes to length, and rolls threads. That way, they stock a bunch of long, straight-gauge
spokes and cut them to size as needed, rather than stocking lots of sizes. Butted spokes obviously
can't be re-cut, except for small changes.

Unless a shop builds a large quantity of wheels, it will never pay for the Phil Wood machine $2,400.
Where it does pay is on providing service and having any spoke length you want in stock. As more
wheels come factory built, you'll see even less demand for the machine. Most shops do not have one.

Mark Janeba said:

Agree with everything else, but I have to ask about the above: Have you really seen lots of shops
with spoke cutters? I've seen one, and they didn't use the cutter.* Maybe you frequent a
better-equipped class of shops than I do. Are shops who really use these cutters that common?
Wouldn't the labor costs exceed the inventory costs? (I'm beginning to think that shops who build
wheels are becoming rare.)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I need to have wheels built (my choice of parts) for the new bike, and figured the local shop could
do it since I'm asking them to build the bike anyway.

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot of nice wheels are built
this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they

cost

Quoted message said:

twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them.

If he is recommending straight gauge instead of double butted, that is a good indication that this
person is not the one you want building your wheels.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

Mark Janeba said:

David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Agreed. There is one reason why many shops recommend straight-gauge spokes. They have a machine
that cuts spokes to length, and rolls threads. That way, they stock a bunch of long,
straight-gauge spokes and cut them to size as needed, rather than stocking lots of sizes. Butted
spokes obviously can't be re-cut, except for small changes.

Agree with everything else, but I have to ask about the above: Have you really seen lots of shops
with spoke cutters? I've seen one, and they didn't use the cutter.* Maybe you frequent a
better-equipped class of shops than I do.

Or maybe not. I have seen one shop locally that used a cutter/roller. They were also pushing
straight-gauge spokes, which is odd. They are now out of business, and I buy spokes on the net.

Quoted message said:

Are shops who really use these cutters that common?

Depends on their clientele. This shop did a lot of tri business. Maybe they have a lot of spoke
sizes to worry about, with the common 650c wheel. I don't really know, though.

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't the labor costs exceed the inventory costs? (I'm beginning to think that shops who build
wheels are becoming rare.)

They would use cheap spokes to begin with, made even cheaper by the lack of threads and bulk
discounts. Once you buy the tool, cutting and rolling is quite quick.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not _`\(,_ | certain, and as
far as they are certain, they do not refer to (_)/ (_) | reality. -- Albert Einstein

I've had to create spokes from time to time for odd wheels, and I have to say, I've never been happy
cutting and threading spokes, either with the process or the product. I would never, EVER, do it
unless I absolutely had to. I guess if you have a lot of time and patience I can see it, but to me,
it was just a big PITA. This may sound terrible, but I'd never cut spokes if they made them
somewhere, especially if it was the customer's money, not mine. I'd save them cash in a lot of other
ways when I could, but cutting and threading would definitely not be at the top of my list.

My $0.02CDN worth,

Scott..

--
Scott Anderson

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 02:47:35 -0500, Mark Janeba wrote:

<<snip>>

Quoted message said:

They would use cheap spokes to begin with, made even cheaper by the lack of threads and bulk
discounts. Once you buy the tool, cutting and rolling is quite quick.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are

not

Quoted message said:

_`\(,_ | certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to (_)/ (_) | reality. --
Albert Einstein

"Joseph Kubera" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, all.

I need to have wheels built (my choice of parts) for the new bike, and

figured

Quoted message said:

the local shop could do it since I'm asking them to build the bike anyway.

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a lot

of

Quoted message said:

nice wheels are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said they

cost

Quoted message said:

twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them.

Any thoughts on this?

Sounds like this guy isn't that knowledgeable about wheel building. Go elsewhere, or build your own.

A better builder ought to be recommending that you use: -stainless double-butted spokes, brass
nipples, 36 hole 3-cross -decent alloy rims, with double-walls and full eyelets

David Green Cambridge UK

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DON'T MAIL THE REPLY ADDRESS! Before you click 'Send', replace 'deadspam.com' with 'onetel.net.uk'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've always used 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoke wheels on my touring bike because I was told that
these spokes are more dependable under touring loads. Now it sounds like most posters here feel that
double butted wheels are at least as strong or maybe stronger. My builder who is converting my bike
to cassette and will be rebuilding my rear wheel, feels that I should go with double butted. I weigh
a little under 180. Used to go up to 195, but no more. Since the front wheel doesn't need to be
rebuilt, it will remain 14 gauge straight gauge 36 spoked wheel. What is the primary reason for
double butted wheels? I would think weight savings. How much savings would that be?

"Drew Eckhardt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

So I requested butted SS spokes, say 14-15, because I have read that a

lot of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nice wheels are built this way. The shop guy was surprised. He said

they cost

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

twice as much and don't hold up as well, and didn't recommend them.

Butted spokes (even DT Revolutions although they're harder to build with)

hold

Quoted message said:

up fine and build into a stronger wheel than straight-gauged as explained

in

Quoted message said:

_The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt.

Personally, if I didn't build my own wheels I wouldn't trust people parotting such superstitions
to do it for me.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on this? BTW, I was going to use 32 front and 36 rear

Torelli

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Masters. An all-around road bike. I weigh 180, if that matters.

With a beer gut I weigh 175. In spite of jumping off curbs with said

belly,

Quoted message said:

a back pack, and 23mm Continentals 32 hole Mavic Reflex rims laced cross-3 with 14/15 spokes on
the rear drive side and DT revos elsewhere hold up

fine

Quoted message said:

(as in don't go out of true);

--
<a href="poohsticks.orgdrewOpen ↗">Home Page</a> The Congress shall assemble at least once
in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by
Law appoint

a

Quoted message said:

different Day.