BRRC North Central Trail Marathon

Congrats for making your main goal, and sorry about the sucky hills at
the end! Yuck. But ya still did good. It's hard to really push it when
the heart's not in it. (For whatever reasons).

Teresa in AZ

Tony said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon

I barely met my main 4 hour goal (3:59:45), and way missed my wishful goal
of 3:45. All in all it was a horrid experience. The weather was what I would
consider perfect: 40f at the start, 50f finishing, sunny, slight breeze.

The course was basically as advertised, most of it is on a flat
rail-to-trail packed-cinder surface next to a small river, and it's a very
pretty trail. You start at a school and are on roads about 2 miles going
down some hills to the start of the rail trail. This year, apparently for
logistical reasons, they moved the finish from the end of the flat trail to
the school, which means there are a few nasty little hills in the last 1.5
miles -- This SUCKED.

My race was deteriorating at about mile 18 and I knew I would slow, but I
still thought I could make 4 hours if I didn't have to walk much. When I hit
those final hills I had to walk the steeper sections. At 26m I knew 4 hours
was still in reach, but that last 0.2 is on a painful little upgrade (I
actually don't know how steep it was, but it seemed so at the time). I
cursed and ran up that final part, sprinted the last 50 meters and got in
right at 4 hours clock time, and knew that I had 15 seconds more on my chip.

Random Points:

1st, I suck as a runner.

2nd, With more training I would have done better, I was at 25-35mpw with
fewer long runs than I should have done for this race.

3rd, I really do hate running flat courses (and maybe I just hate running in
general).

4th, They [censored] up the race moving the finish to the hill.

5th, Though I trained with more consistent running than I did for my 50k, I
had better form for my 50k because of lots of cross-training (10-12
hours/week vs. 6-8 hours/week).

6th, You know something is wrong when you really don't want travel to your
race and you feel casual about it.

7th, I went out too hard.

8th, My nutrition was good: 3 salt tabs, Accel gels, mostly water, and a bit
of Gatobarf.

9th, I envied those damn relay guys passing me toward the end for being
fresher.

10th, Curious thing, All during the race I noticed that everyone around me
was breathing harder than me, though my legs, HR, and experience told me I
couldn't go any faster.

11th, Stick to activities you enjoy - roads, and now I've confirmed, flat
courses in general, are not for me. Now you might say yea but it had those
wonderful hills right at the end - and I would punch you 🙂

12th, The trip turned into a holiday traffic oddessy adventure.

Oh I forgot one good thing, instead of t-shirts they gave out these nice
fleecy vests.

-Tony

Splits:
Mile Split HR
2 16:23 163 downhills, missed 1st
3 9:05 164
4 8:47 167
5 8:50 165
6 8:45 164
7 8:31 163 2 fast chatting some guy
8 8:52 165
9 8:46 161
10 8:49 161
11 9:01 166
12 8:54 165
13 9:06 164
14 9:04 162
15 8:37 166 ? cheering?
16 8:48 166
17 9:09 161
18 9:17 162 early wall lol
19 9:37 159
20 9:20 163
21 9:28 163
22 9:42 161 30 sec walk break
23 9:34 159 "
24 9:43 157 "
25 10:18 159 uphills begin
26 10:24 160 more hill
26.2 2:54 174 nasty lil hill!

Teresa Bippert-Plymate wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Congrats for making your main goal, and sorry about the sucky hills at
the end! Yuck. But ya still did good. It's hard to really push it when
the heart's not in it. (For whatever reasons).

Teresa in AZ

Thanks. It was one of those times when notthing really went wrong, but yes,
my heart wasn't in it and that makes such a difference.

-T

Ignoramus21762 wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Great job. I have a question. How do you record your mile splits? Do
you have excellent memory, or do you run with a little notebook, or do
you use some electronic gizmo?

My trusty old polar XTrainer Plus HRM records lap times with average HR and
downloads to the PC. I heard someone with a device of some kind say the
mile markers were off by such and such, which doesn't surprise me as they
were the built in rail-to-trail mile markers mostly. The first mile mark
was short and that's one reason I missed it.

-T

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0JGqd.4354$_E3.3306@trndny06...

Quoted message said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon
The course was basically as advertised, most of it is on a flat
rail-to-trail packed-cinder surface next to a small river, and it's a
very
pretty trail. You start at a school and are on roads about 2 miles
going
down some hills to the start of the rail trail. This year, apparently
for
logistical reasons, they moved the finish from the end of the flat
trail to
the school, which means there are a few nasty little hills in the last
1.5
miles -- This SUCKED.

Get your ass down here for some of my hill runs and you'll learn to love
them or die. In either case, problem solved.

-Doug

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0JGqd.4354$_E3.3306@trndny06...

Quoted message said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon
The course was basically as advertised, most of it is on a flat
rail-to-trail packed-cinder surface next to a small river, and it's a
very
pretty trail. You start at a school and are on roads about 2 miles
going
down some hills to the start of the rail trail. This year, apparently
for
logistical reasons, they moved the finish from the end of the flat
trail to
the school, which means there are a few nasty little hills in the last
1.5
miles -- This SUCKED.

Get your ass down here for some of my hill runs and you'll learn to love
them or die. In either case, problem solved.

-Doug

I'll think bout that in a few weeks. Of course it's the damn clock that
ruined it - when you're focused on splits and making some certain time goal
it takes away all the fun, at least for me.

-T

Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 29 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon

Quoted message said:

Oh I forgot one good thing, instead of t-shirts they gave out these
nice fleecy vests.

Well, then it was all worth it. ;-) Was it in your plan to max out at 35
MPW? Contrats on your finish.

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short,
South African coach.

Phil M. wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 29 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon

Quoted message said:

Oh I forgot one good thing, instead of t-shirts they gave out these
nice fleecy vests.

Well, then it was all worth it. ;-) Was it in your plan to max out at 35
MPW? Contrats on your finish.

Phil M.

Thanks Phil. Yea that vest is real nice. Since this race was about 2 1/2
months after my goal race this year, I didn't have a set training plan aside
from more runs/week and doing enough longer runs. For my 50k I was putting
in 3 runs/week with 3 solid bike rides, with 3 hour+ runs going up over 4
hours every 3 weeks. That long run strategy, recommended by Doug and
others, worked like a charm, and the cross-training provided a very solid
fitness base.

For this race I got in several medium runs of ~2 - 2 1/2 hours, and just one
over 3 hours. My biking tailed off a great deal with the change in weather -
and with that my fitness base also tailed off some - so I moved to running 4
times a week, and it seemed to be going well. Most of my weeks were more
like 20-25 miles, so I guess I have nothing to complain about.

The upside is that I was enjoying running more frequently leading up to this
race, so even though I didn't enjoy this marathon the way I've enjoyed other
races, I expect that after a rest period I will pick up where I left off.

-Tony

Looking over the results:

I was 157th of 302, HM in 1:54:42 finish in 3:59:45 for a 9% positive split.

The winner was 1:29:18 / 2:49:00, a -10.7% negative split, and went out over
5 mins slower than the 2nd placed guy, who he beat by 1 min. There were
only 11 negative splits out of 302 finishers, most of them in the top 25.
The median split was 14%, and there were 10 complete collapses of over 50%
positive split.

-Tony

Hi Tony:

I think you did very well, considering your ridiculously low mileage. (I
don't dare show up for a distance race without at least 60 mpw!)

Also, for some reason, trail races are slower than road races. Maybe
there's some lost efficiency running on dirt.

If you tracked experienced runners' marathon times, you'd probably find that
their road times were faster.

As a fellow runner said to me as we were finishing a 50k and commiserating
about our slower than desired times, "It is what it is". You gave it your
all. Maybe you went out too quick, and you can use that to do better next
time.

Congrats,

Dan

Dan Stumpus wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Hi Tony:

I think you did very well, considering your ridiculously low mileage. (I
don't dare show up for a distance race without at least 60 mpw!)

I'm aiming to get up to 50mpw next year, so that might help.

Quoted message said:

Also, for some reason, trail races are slower than road races. Maybe
there's some lost efficiency running on dirt.

I'd agree, though this trail was very smooth in most places. I would say it
added less than 1 min to my time.

Quoted message said:

If you tracked experienced runners' marathon times, you'd probably find

that

Quoted message said:

their road times were faster.

As a fellow runner said to me as we were finishing a 50k and commiserating
about our slower than desired times, "It is what it is". You gave it your
all. Maybe you went out too quick, and you can use that to do better next
time.

Yea normally I wouldn't watch the time closely at all, just go by feel and
enjoy it. This time I did have the 4 hour time goal. I think true trail
races are more enjoyable in that way - you're not as concerned about pace,
letting the terrain dictate it more, and just going for an even effort and
conserving yourself for the latter part.

Thanks -Tony

Quoted message said:

Congrats,

Dan

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

The upside is that I was enjoying running more frequently leading up to this
race, so even though I didn't enjoy this marathon the way I've enjoyed other
races, I expect that after a rest period I will pick up where I left off.

-Tony

You seem to have had conflicting purposes for the race - setting a
time goal, but still not taking it seriously as a goal race.

20/20 hindsight says you should have just ran it for the enjoyment of
a trail marathon, which is how you trained for it. Then you'd be happy
with your time AND have the cool fleecy vest. <g>

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Mike Tennent wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

The upside is that I was enjoying running more frequently leading up to

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race, so even though I didn't enjoy this marathon the way I've enjoyed

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

races, I expect that after a rest period I will pick up where I left off.

-Tony

You seem to have had conflicting purposes for the race - setting a
time goal, but still not taking it seriously as a goal race.

20/20 hindsight says you should have just ran it for the enjoyment of
a trail marathon, which is how you trained for it. Then you'd be happy
with your time AND have the cool fleecy vest. <g>

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Yea Mike, you're right it wasn't a serious race goal except that I needed a
4 hour as a general qualifier for a trail race next summer; so mission
accomplished. In retrospect, after my 50k it would have been far better to
bag any additional long runs and races this season and slowly build up some
kind of base for next year.

-Tony

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<0JGqd.4354$_E3.3306@trndny06>...

Quoted message said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon

I barely met my main 4 hour goal (3:59:45), and way missed my wishful goal
of 3:45. All in all it was a horrid experience. The weather was what I would
consider perfect: 40f at the start, 50f finishing, sunny, slight breeze.

LONG-time lurker here...

Tony,

I was one of those jerks who ran the 2nd half of the relay (team
Hambone/Flippy II) -- sorry about that. I've been wondering about the
change to the finish myself, after running the relay for the first
time last year. I rode the new finish on my bike a couple of weeks
ago, and realized it would be very difficult. I mentioned this to
some of the other relay runners, and one guy thanked me afterward.

But consider the upside of the course change -- last year, it was
freezing cold with a lot of wind, and the post-race was in a big
(unheated) banquet tent set up beside the trail. It was miserable.
There was mud everywhere, and nowhere to sit down. Also nothing hot
to eat or drink. This year we got to relax inside with good food in a
beautiful gym in one of the wealthiest school districts anywhere. I
thought it was a very good race overall. But I agree that those hills
at the very end seemed pretty damn unfair. They hurt me bigtime after
only a half, and I can imagine it was a lot worse for the full.

One more thing about the finish: there was an error in course marking
in this section. Mile 26 to the finish was about 150 yards long, by
my estimate. I don't know if this was offset by other errors
elsewhere in the course. It sounds like the first mile was definitely
short, since my relay partner was about a minute faster in mile 1 than
any other mile.

I also had to comment on your training. 25-35 mpw with lots of
cross-training sounds OK to me. Not orthodox, for sure, but very
close to what I did for my one and only marathon. I did 2 runs per
week, peak mileage of about 32, with about 3-4 hours of cross-training
per week (mostly hard tempo for the XT). I think I did 4 runs total
of 20+. I had a good marathon experience. Didn't quite make the
"benchmark" of 2*half-mar + 10 min, but only missed it by 5 minutes --
half-mar was 1:17, full mar was 2:49.

Finally, I think you are being too hard on yourself. Maybe all you
needed was to rest/taper more fully before the race, and possibly pace
it a little more conservatively in the first half.

-Tom

Tom Banchy wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

LONG-time lurker here...

Tony,

I was one of those jerks who ran the 2nd half of the relay (team
Hambone/Flippy II) -- sorry about that. I've been wondering about the
change to the finish myself, after running the relay for the first
time last year. I rode the new finish on my bike a couple of weeks
ago, and realized it would be very difficult. I mentioned this to
some of the other relay runners, and one guy thanked me afterward.

Actually I was just messing - though I did envy a bit the fresher legs of
you relay-ers.

Quoted message said:

But consider the upside of the course change -- last year, it was
freezing cold with a lot of wind, and the post-race was in a big
(unheated) banquet tent set up beside the trail. It was miserable.
There was mud everywhere, and nowhere to sit down. Also nothing hot
to eat or drink. This year we got to relax inside with good food in a
beautiful gym in one of the wealthiest school districts anywhere. I
thought it was a very good race overall. But I agree that those hills
at the very end seemed pretty damn unfair. They hurt me bigtime after
only a half, and I can imagine it was a lot worse for the full.

I was just blowing off steam about the finish, though it did suck at the
time because I was trying to meet a time goal. Sounds misearable last year
just after finishing though. I don't know which is worse really. You're
right, the school was great afterwards - a very nice atmosphere to refuel
and hang out for a while.

Quoted message said:

One more thing about the finish: there was an error in course marking
in this section. Mile 26 to the finish was about 150 yards long, by
my estimate. I don't know if this was offset by other errors
elsewhere in the course. It sounds like the first mile was definitely
short, since my relay partner was about a minute faster in mile 1 than
any other mile.

This makes sense as it did seem to take a while to get through that last
0.2.

Quoted message said:

I also had to comment on your training. 25-35 mpw with lots of
cross-training sounds OK to me. Not orthodox, for sure, but very
close to what I did for my one and only marathon. I did 2 runs per
week, peak mileage of about 32, with about 3-4 hours of cross-training
per week (mostly hard tempo for the XT). I think I did 4 runs total
of 20+. I had a good marathon experience. Didn't quite make the
"benchmark" of 2*half-mar + 10 min, but only missed it by 5 minutes --
half-mar was 1:17, full mar was 2:49.

Actually my cross-training tailed off quite a bit with the shorter days and
as a result I lost some fitness even while increasing my running over the
last 2 months. Looks like you had a great first marathon off that
training - excellent result 2:49; I'd say you've got talent. I think cross
with long runs is very effective for gaining fitness quickly without the
pounding of running only.

Quoted message said:

Finally, I think you are being too hard on yourself. Maybe all you
needed was to rest/taper more fully before the race, and possibly pace
it a little more conservatively in the first half.

-Tom

My taper was only about 10 days on such light mileage. I would have changed
it but only slightly. Yes, I guess I went out too hard, though my last long
training run was 21 miles at 9:36 pace, with fantastic recovery - so I
thought I could go out at around 8:45 and then possibly speed up later. The
downhills up front sped me up a little, but I was going easy based on my HR.
Could be my endurance engine just wasn't great on that day. Thanks for your
comments.

-Tony

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Tony:

I think you did very well, considering your ridiculously low mileage.
(I
don't dare show up for a distance race without at least 60 mpw!)

At least 60 per week? That's because you train to run in the top 2-5%.
Let's see 80 starters at Mt. Baldy and you finished 14th and the first
in the 50 year old bracket. Hell you finished 2 minutes in front of my
niece and she ran 18:51(5th overall) at the Vermont 100 in 99 in
blistering heat and won Badwater in 2001. If you had slowed just a
little you would have had some great eye candy to keep you motivated.
You are running with the big boys and girls and hard to compare.

On a more serious note you train lots harder than 95% of those on the
ultra circuit. I may average 60 for a100 and seldom get above 50 for a
50 or less. I'm satisfied to finish in the top 20%. Enjoy it while
you're young cuz the age god will be nipping at your feet. 😉

-Doug F

Leafing through rec.running, I read Doug Freese's message of 30 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

Hell you finished 2 minutes in front of my niece and she ran 18:51(5th
overall) at the Vermont 100 in 99 in blistering heat and won Badwater
in 2001.

This ultra running stuff must be genetic.

Phil M.

Tony said:

BRRC Northern Trail Marathon

I barely met my main 4 hour goal (3:59:45), and way missed my wishful goal
of 3:45. All in all it was a horrid experience. The weather was what I would
consider perfect: 40f at the start, 50f finishing, sunny, slight breeze.

<main report snipped>

Quoted message said:

3rd, I really do hate running flat courses (and maybe I just hate running in
general).

4th, They [censored] up the race moving the finish to the hill.

huh? 😉

Quoted message said:

11th, Stick to activities you enjoy - roads, and now I've confirmed, flat
courses in general, are not for me. Now you might say yea but it had those
wonderful hills right at the end - and I would punch you 🙂

ooops, I retract my above "huh?" 😉

FWIW, my feet complain to me when running flat for too long - even on
trails so I definitely relate to your comments.

Quoted message said:

12th, The trip turned into a holiday traffic oddessy adventure.

Yuk 🙁

Quoted message said:

Oh I forgot one good thing, instead of t-shirts they gave out these nice
fleecy vests.

Now, see wasn't it worth the effort? 😉

Seriously, congratulations on beating your main goal. Sounds like maybe
time and effort make more sense than splits.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Doug Freese said:

At least 60 per week? That's because you train to run in the top 2-5%.
Let's see 80 starters at Mt. Baldy and you finished 14th and the first
in the 50 year old bracket. Hell you finished 2 minutes in front of
my niece and she ran 18:51(5th overall) at the Vermont 100 in 99 in
blistering heat and won Badwater in 2001. If you had slowed just a
little you would have had some great eye candy to keep you motivated.

We ran together and chatted for about 5 miles, before she made a big move on
me (the running kind, not the other type!) at mile 14. I could have gone
with her, but my internal heart monitor told me "No!". Besides, this way I
could watch! I passed her two miles from the finish.

Quoted message said:

On a more serious note you train lots harder than 95% of those on the
ultra circuit.

I always trained harder than most of the folks who ran my times -- Hey, at
least I'm an overachiever in something!

Quoted message said:

I may average 60 for a100 and seldom get above 50 for a
50 or less. I'm satisfied to finish in the top 20%.

I'm still obsessed with regaining my wava % ranking, in comparison. Heck,
I'm seriously considering old-school speedwork (10 x 440, 6 x 880, etc) this
winter (where it sometimes dips down into the 40's -- imagine!).

Quoted message said:

Enjoy it while
you're young cuz the age god will be nipping at your feet. 😉

See my report below; father time hasn't quite caught me, but I can hear his
footsteps!

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We ran together and chatted for about 5 miles, before she made a big
move on
me (the running kind, not the other type!) at mile 14. I could have
gone
with her, but my internal heart monitor told me "No!". Besides, this
way I
could watch! I passed her two miles from the finish.

Good thing you didn't connect us - my ears would be ringing. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I'm still obsessed with regaining my wava % ranking, in comparison.
Heck,
I'm seriously considering old-school speedwork (10 x 440, 6 x 880,
etc) this
winter (where it sometimes dips down into the 40's -- imagine!).

Don't tell anyone but I've been doing some speed on the track for about
4 weeks. Not much - 6x400 at 82-85 with a 200 rest and they feel
comfortable. It's more of an experiment then any real goal other than
holding form and heavy breathing. Once the snow flies speed goes into
hibernation and the LSD reigns.

-DF