Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

broken spoke

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Cycling Equipment
Published
1 June 2007
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5 June 2007
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A Muzi
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  1. I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
    occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
    on the fork when broken".

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
    wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
    recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
    have experience with that?

    (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  2. Andrew Muzi said:

    I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and
    the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes
    won't foul on the fork when broken".

    Quoted message said:

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
    wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I
    can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
    spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

    Quoted message said:

    (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

    Tying and soldering or better tying with twine and gluing was
    introduced on high wheelers, where a fat crude spoke failure often
    caused headers, they being so unstable in the forward direction that
    they had no useful brake, one that would send the rider on his face
    more often.

    It was with the advent of the "safety" bicycle that wheel builders
    didn't want to give up a new service that had been introduced shortly
    before there were no more high wheelers, so they attributed all sorts
    of wheel strength to the procedure, after losing its real purpose.
    That fable lasted until publication of "the Bicycle Wheel" where the
    benefits were measured and found not to exist.

    Tying and soldering spokes, and hard glue for track tires were two
    myths that were accepted in bicycling without question. It took me a
    while to find the answers to these. Of course, block chain was
    another of these. Track riders were sure that only a non roller chain
    was strong enough to withstand the force of a good sprinter, and they
    were all, all good sprinters. I recall how these guys made fun of my
    friend Peter Johnson when he built his ultra light sprint bicycle,
    using derailleur chain. It didn't bother them that he won anyway.

    Myths don't die easily.

    Jobst Brandt

  3. Quoted message said:
    Andrew Muzi said:

    I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and
    the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes
    won't foul on the fork when broken".

    Quoted message said:

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
    wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I
    can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
    spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

    Quoted message said:

    (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

    Quoted message said:

    Tying and soldering or better tying with twine and gluing was
    introduced on high wheelers, where a fat crude spoke failure often
    caused headers, they being so unstable in the forward direction that
    they had no useful brake, one that would send the rider on his face
    more often.

    It was with the advent of the "safety" bicycle that wheel builders
    didn't want to give up a new service that had been introduced shortly
    before there were no more high wheelers, so they attributed all sorts
    of wheel strength to the procedure, after losing its real purpose.
    That fable lasted until publication of "the Bicycle Wheel" where the
    benefits were measured and found not to exist.

    Tying and soldering spokes, and hard glue for track tires were two
    myths that were accepted in bicycling without question. It took me a
    while to find the answers to these. Of course, block chain was
    another of these. Track riders were sure that only a non roller chain
    was strong enough to withstand the force of a good sprinter, and they
    were all, all good sprinters. I recall how these guys made fun of my
    friend Peter Johnson when he built his ultra light sprint bicycle,
    using derailleur chain. It didn't bother them that he won anyway.

    Myths don't die easily.

    So do you know that broken spokes did in fact catch and stop the wheel?
    Or was tie-and-solder always useless? Was there a true and real danger?
    Ever?

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  4. Quoted message said:

    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

    That is not block chain.
    it's 1" x 3/16 roller chain
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  5. On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:55:19 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

    That is not block chain.
    it's 1" x 3/16 roller chain

    Dear Andrew,

    Aaargh! Even a quick glance shows that you're right--I must have let
    the teeth and the Rover's block chain fool me.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  6. I think the main damage a broken unrestrained spoke will cause on a
    bicycle with a reasonable number of spokes is to the paint and yes I
    have seen this ;-)

    In my hazy days of off-road motorcycling I recall the reason for tying
    and soldering spokes was to reduce the potential for both injury and
    flats and while I saw a few broken unsoldered spokes never an injury due
    to them.

    IMHO tied and soldered spokes look right on an appropriate vintage racer.

    IME with 36 spoke wheels, tied and soldered spokes make even noticing a
    broken spoke while riding unlikely, which is probably not a good thing
    in some circumstances.

    Marcus

  7. Andrew Muzi said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel)
    and the occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered
    spokes won't foul on the fork when broken".

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will,
    I wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really
    are. I can't recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken
    spoke. Anyone here have experience with that?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Tying and soldering or better tying with twine and gluing was
    introduced on high wheelers, where a fat crude spoke failure often
    caused headers, they being so unstable in the forward direction
    that they had no useful brake, one that would send the rider on his
    face more often than the spoon dragger that they used to little
    effect.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It was with the advent of the "safety" bicycle that wheel builders
    didn't want to give up a new service that had been introduced
    shortly before there were no more high wheelers, so they attributed
    all sorts of wheel strength to the procedure, after losing its real
    purpose. That fable lasted until publication of "the Bicycle
    Wheel" where the benefits were measured and found not to exist.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Tying and soldering spokes, and hard glue for track tires were two
    myths that were accepted in bicycling without question. It took me
    a while to find the answers to these. Of course, block chain was
    another of these. Track riders were sure that only a non roller
    chain was strong enough to withstand the force of a good sprinter,
    and they were all, all good sprinters. I recall how these guys
    made fun of my friend Peter Johnson when he built his ultra light
    sprint bicycle, using derailleur chain. It didn't bother them that
    he won anyway.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Myths don't die easily.

    Quoted message said:

    So do you know that broken spokes did in fact catch and stop the
    wheel? Or was tie-and-solder always useless? Was there a true and
    real danger? Ever?

    According to the book I read on that matter, it was his intent to make
    high wheelers safer by not having a 24" long 3mm diameter spoke
    flailing about. That this would cause an endo, is apparent to me. In
    any case, wire and solder for this was introduced later and probably
    came with the safety bicycle, where there had to be some reason to
    continue the method. Using wire and solder makes the strength concept
    more believable. At least it held up for more than 100 years.

    And you may wonder why I am a skeptic when I read about advances in
    bicycle technology.

    Not long ago, here on RBT, defenders of the wheel strengthening
    concept abounded. These folks have retired their bicycles now and
    besides, 16-spoke wheels don't support the extra strength notion well
    anyway. Now its cracking rims because the spokes are too tight. Long
    live spoke prep!

    What's next?

    Jobst Brandt

  8. Andrew Muzi said:

    That is not block chain, it's 1" x 3/16 roller chain:

    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120245&v=EJ&size=large

    But this one is a block chain:

    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=1gci&pic_id=120239&v=Ek&size=large

    Jobst Brandt

  9. Kerry Montgomery said:

    Thanks again for all the photos,

    Not meaning to besmirch good fellow Carl, who's contributions here are
    very much appreciated, but most or all of the photos are in fact
    Carsten Hoefer's, and were taken in the Two-Wheeler Museum in
    Neckarsulm, Germany (as per Carsten's CrazyGuyOnaBike.com page.)

    Carsten's one of the best writers on CGoaB (in my opinion) and all his
    articles are worth a peek, by the way.

  10. Andrew Muzi said:

    Where I'm going with this is that I suspect the 'rationale' for
    tie-solder was bogus at the outset.

    We don't see many original high wheelers going far these days and the
    ones I see are cross laced with modern spokes. Cross lacing, even
    without tying, is a great leap forward, if the spokes are interleaved.
    If you consider where rider CG is when hunched over the pedals going
    fast, you can see there is nothing but the weight of the rear wheel
    holding the bicycle from going over forward. Backpedaling can easily
    do that.

    Jobst Brandt

  11. Quoted message said:


    (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

    I can give you some good sources...

  12. The rear rack's load is held down with shock cords. Once in a blue
    moon but not ofetn enough to actually do somehting about it, a cord
    comes loose and wraps itself around the mechanism. I then ask myself:
    ^^%$$!!(**)&^^^>>?!@##%!
    A loose spoke occupies the same space. What harmful destructive and
    fatal actions a loose spoke do? If you stop rowing, the water will
    come in and the pumps fail right?
    I fear the spoke will poke thru the velox and uncture the tube.
    But in practice, and $%#@@!!!(&&&😉>>3210 this takes practice, ifn yawl
    back up with a loose spoke with a full bladder in the middle of a busy
    parking lot then you are dead meat.

  13. Avagadro IV said:

    The rear rack's load is held down with shock cords. Once in a blue
    moon but not ofetn enough to actually do somehting about it, a cord
    comes loose and wraps itself around the mechanism. I then ask myself:
    ^^%$$!!(**)&^^^>>?!@##%!
    A loose spoke occupies the same space. What harmful destructive and
    fatal actions a loose spoke do? If you stop rowing, the water will
    come in and the pumps fail right?
    I fear the spoke will poke thru the velox and uncture the tube.
    But in practice, and $%#@@!!!(&&&😉>>3210 this takes practice, ifn yawl
    back up with a loose spoke with a full bladder in the middle of a busy
    parking lot then you are dead meat.

    Gene...with Caps Back?!?

  14. A Muzi said:

    I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
    occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
    on the fork when broken".

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
    wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
    recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
    have experience with that?

    Ha, I was thinking about that the day before yesterday when I popped a
    spoke two miles from home (cheesy Chinese spoked Nashbar wheel set
    that's begging for new Sapims...), as every broken spoke I've ever
    seen, it fractured at the elbow. With 3X lacing, there's no risk
    whatsoever, IMHO. Just a quick pop, and I knew what it was, so reached
    back and undid the QR so I could get home and scrounge a spoke.

  15. On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:54:27 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
    occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
    on the fork when broken".

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
    wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
    recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
    have experience with that?

    Of the half dozen to a dozen spokes that broke on my bike over the
    years, I only remember one that flapped loose. I don't remember the
    details, but I did have to stop and bend it around the remaining
    spokes to get home.

    Pat

    Email address works as is.

  16. A Muzi said:

    I broke a front wheel spoke two days ago (errant cargo in wheel) and the
    occasional slapping sound reminds me of "tied/soldered spokes won't foul
    on the fork when broken".

    Since it hasn't caught on anything and doesn't look like it will, I
    wonder how great a 'problem' broken flapping spokes really are. I can't
    recall seeing a wheel actually stopped by a broken spoke. Anyone here
    have experience with that?

    (Yes, I'm going to put in a new spoke.)

    Not a broken spoke but an aluminum nipple gave way on the drive side while
    hammering up a short steep incline. The spoke snarled up something spectacular
    actually fouling the chain and cassette and it skidded to a stop. I was able to
    untangle and wrap the spoke around some good ones to hobble (wobble) home.

    Ron

  17. The spoke snarled up something spectacular

    Quoted message said:

    actually fouling the chain and cassette and it skidded to a stop. I was able to
    untangle and wrap the spoke around some good ones to hobble (wobble) home.

    right! a spoke has a capacity to wind around the deray cage.
    Incrudlous! jeeez now what?

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Myths don't die easily.

    By definition, else they would not be myths.
    We could call some of these methods zombies.

    --
    Michael Press

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    A Muzi said:

    Interesting photos, thanks
    Any readers ever see a wheel stopped by a broken spoke? I haven't.

    Where I'm going with this is that I suspect the 'rationale' for
    tie-solder was bogus at the outset.

    I credit the notion that 24 inches of wire flapping and
    wrapping is enough to cause a header on a high-wheeler,
    where you are always inches away from a header. A few
    months ago a url was posted to a moving picture clip of
    a recent high-wheeler incident.

    --
    Michael Press

  20. Avagadro IV said:

    The spoke snarled up something spectacular

    Quoted message said:

    actually fouling the chain and cassette and it skidded to a stop. I was able to
    untangle and wrap the spoke around some good ones to hobble (wobble) home.

    right! a spoke has a capacity to wind around the deray cage.
    Incrudlous! jeeez now what?

    Actually no, a spoke cannot wind around a derailleur cage, dumbass. But it can
    sure get sucked into a bike's drivetrain and be chewed up and twisted around and
    why the hell wouldn't it. The spoke snarled between the chain and cassette and
    hub and chainstay.

    Go look at a bike. Drop a spoke onto the lower length of chain and see where it
    ends up.

    Jeez indeed. Now even the class clown has pretenses of pedantry.

    Ron

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