Bottom Bracket Facing Required?

Patrick W. said:

Seems to me the shop which re-assembled the bike owes me a BB,

How do you reckon that? Even if your frame _did_ need facing, how do
you suppose that would have caused water infiltration and bearing
failure? It sounds to me like you failed to adequately maintain your
bike.

If your frame had already been faced before repainting, it would not
necessarily have been a good idea to face it again, unless the paint
was very thick and uneven at the BB faces. Machining is a subtractive
process; continue to cut after a part has reached spec and it will fall
out of spec again.

Perhaps your frame could have benefited from BB facing, but that is not
a foregone conclusion-- and omitting the facing operation would not
have resulted in wet, gritty bearings in any case. Are you suggesting
instead that the shop did not put enough grease in your BB? If so,
what does that have to do with whether or not the BB shell was faced?

It's not the shop's fault if you choose to ride old, worn components
out in the slop without repacking the bearings afterwards. If they
failed to install the seals correctly, that would be something-- but if
your 15-year-old part's seals simply failed from wear or age or bad
design, that's not the shop's fault either.

Count your blessings that your square-taper spindle didn't let you know
it was used up by breaking off and hurting you. It has happened to me,
with newer equipment than yours by far. I won't touch that
square-taper junk anymore.

Chalo Colina

Patrick W. said:

After a particularly wet ride I noticed my bottom bracket was pretty
crunchy. When it dried out, it was practially seized. I disassembled and saw
the damage - totally shot, pitted cups, a nice paste of rust instead of
grease, bearings splotchy with rust. This was a circa 1990 Campy Chorus
bottom bracket, which had lasted just perfectly for 12 years or so. I
recently had the frame repainted and noticed when I disassembled recently
that the BB shell had NOT been faced - it was 100% painted. Seems to me the
shop which re-assembled the bike owes me a BB, but I'm not going to push it
with them (nor will I have them service in the future, however).

rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's
a moisture ingress problem.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the damage is done, and now I'm wondering: do newer cartridge-type
BBs require facing of the shell, or can I just pick one up and install
myself? I am loathe to pay another shop more money for shoddy work, but if I
must I must . . .

use a cartridge bb & make sure your bb shell is drilled to ensure
moisture can escape.

Quoted message said:

- Patrick W.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:55:27 GMT, "Patrick W."

may have said:

After a particularly wet ride I noticed my bottom bracket was pretty
crunchy. When it dried out, it was practially seized. I disassembled and saw
the damage - totally shot, pitted cups, a nice paste of rust instead of
grease, bearings splotchy with rust.

Apparently it was an unsealed unit, then; those are not a good thing
to have if you're going to play in the mud a lot, unless you're
planning to repack the bearings often.

Quoted message said:

This was a circa 1990 Campy Chorus
bottom bracket, which had lasted just perfectly for 12 years or so. I
recently had the frame repainted and noticed when I disassembled recently
that the BB shell had NOT been faced - it was 100% painted.

Excuse me? Why would they have refaced the BB shell if there was no
evidence of BB failure or habitual loosening? This isn't a procedure
that you do for fun; it's undertaken only when there is a perceived
need. It's like regrinding the crankshaft of an aiutomobile engine;
you do it when the evidence indicates need, not simply as a matter of
course.

Quoted message said:

Seems to me the
shop which re-assembled the bike owes me a BB, but I'm not going to push it
with them (nor will I have them service in the future, however).

If they didn't properly pack the BB, that's an omission worth being
annoyed about. If the BB was packed, but became contaminated with
water due to the conditions present when riding, that's not their
fault.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the damage is done, and now I'm wondering: do newer cartridge-type
BBs require facing of the shell, or can I just pick one up and install
myself? I am loathe to pay another shop more money for shoddy work, but if I
must I must . . .

Facing the shell is a process that is performed when required,
regardless of the type of BB that will be installed. But to answer
the question that you probably should have been asking, given the type
of riding that it appears you're doing, a sealed BB is probably a
better choice than what you have now.

--
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Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

mangoes-<< I
recently had the frame repainted and noticed when I disassembled recently
that the BB shell had NOT been faced - it was 100% painted. Seems to me the
shop which re-assembled the bike owes me a BB, but I'm not going to push it
with them (nor will I have them service in the future, however).

Anyway, the damage is done, and now I'm wondering: do newer cartridge-type
BBs require facing of the shell, or can I just pick one up and install
myself? I am loathe to pay another shop more money for shoddy work, but if I
must I must . . . >><BR><BR>

Any BB that has a lip that is against the BB shell, needs to be faced, period.
Phil or Older Athena do not but the threads need to be chased.
A recently painted frame needs to have the paint taken off as well, from the
faces of the BB shell and headtube.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 20 Jan 2005 13:48:33 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Any BB that has a lip that is against the BB shell, needs to be faced, period.
Phil or Older Athena do not but the threads need to be chased.
A recently painted frame needs to have the paint taken off as well, from the
faces of the BB shell and headtube.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria

Hi, if the paint is applied evenly,why must it be removed? I would
think removing it, would make those places more likely to corrode.
Well, rust on a steel frame anyway.

Can you give a more detailed explanation of this. I'm still trying to
learn more about headsets and the above info may be helpful in the
future.

Life is Good!
Jeff

"Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Patrick W. said:

Seems to me the shop which re-assembled the bike owes me a BB,

How do you reckon that? Even if your frame _did_ need facing, how do
you suppose that would have caused water infiltration and bearing
failure? It sounds to me like you failed to adequately maintain your
bike.

If your frame had already been faced before repainting, it would not
necessarily have been a good idea to face it again, unless the paint
was very thick and uneven at the BB faces. Machining is a subtractive
process; continue to cut after a part has reached spec and it will fall
out of spec again.

Perhaps your frame could have benefited from BB facing, but that is not
a foregone conclusion-- and omitting the facing operation would not
have resulted in wet, gritty bearings in any case. Are you suggesting
instead that the shop did not put enough grease in your BB? If so,
what does that have to do with whether or not the BB shell was faced?

It's not the shop's fault if you choose to ride old, worn components
out in the slop without repacking the bearings afterwards. If they
failed to install the seals correctly, that would be something-- but if
your 15-year-old part's seals simply failed from wear or age or bad
design, that's not the shop's fault either.

Count your blessings that your square-taper spindle didn't let you know
it was used up by breaking off and hurting you. It has happened to me,
with newer equipment than yours by far. I won't touch that
square-taper junk anymore.

Chalo Colina

Well I'm not an engineer; all I know is the BB lasted 12 years when it was
faced, and 1.5 years when it was not. I disassembled it myself prior to
sending the frame off for painting, so I know it was in good shape before
re-assembly. And my riding/maintenance habits did not change from the 12
year to the 1.5 year period.

- Patrick

push it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with them (nor will I have them service in the future, however).

rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's a
moisture ingress problem.

See, I figure not facing would allow more water to ingress around the shell
face. I've always had the idea that paint, no matter how smooth and even it
appears, is not perfectly smooth and would allow some seepage. Facing OTOH
would completely flatten and smooth everything.

- Patrick

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's a
moisture ingress problem.

Patrick W. wrote:

See, I figure not facing would allow more water to ingress around the shell
face. I've always had the idea that paint, no matter how smooth and even it
appears, is not perfectly smooth and would allow some seepage. Facing OTOH
would completely flatten and smooth everything.

Facing is not about removing paint, it's about removing metal. If a
frame has been properly faced once, it never needs to be faced again.

After a repaint, excessive paint can be removed from the faced surface
with a knife or a fine file, used gently.

This is not intended to be a hermetically sealed interface.

With most modern cartridge bottom brackets, facing is not needed, and
leaving the paint in place can help prevent rust.

Sheldon "Saving Face" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| What's not worth doing is not worth doing well. |
| --Don Hebb |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's a
moisture ingress problem.

Patrick W. wrote:

See, I figure not facing would allow more water to ingress around the
shell face. I've always had the idea that paint, no matter how smooth and
even it appears, is not perfectly smooth and would allow some seepage.
Facing OTOH would completely flatten and smooth everything.

Facing is not about removing paint, it's about removing metal. If a frame
has been properly faced once, it never needs to be faced again.

After a repaint, excessive paint can be removed from the faced surface
with a knife or a fine file, used gently.

This is not intended to be a hermetically sealed interface.

With most modern cartridge bottom brackets, facing is not needed, and
leaving the paint in place can help prevent rust.

This was not a cartridge BB. That's my point!!! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's a
>moisture ingress problem.
>

Patrick W. wrote:

See, I figure not facing would allow more water to ingress around the
shell face. I've always had the idea that paint, no matter how smooth and
even it appears, is not perfectly smooth and would allow some seepage.
Facing OTOH would completely flatten and smooth everything.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Facing is not about removing paint, it's about removing metal. If a frame
has been properly faced once, it never needs to be faced again.

After a repaint, excessive paint can be removed from the faced surface
with a knife or a fine file, used gently.

This is not intended to be a hermetically sealed interface.

With most modern cartridge bottom brackets, facing is not needed, and
leaving the paint in place can help prevent rust.

Patrick W. said:

This was not a cartridge BB. That's my point!!! 🙂

I understand that, but I also understand that your frame had already
been faced once, so it doesn't need to have it done again.

The comment about cartridge bottom brackets was not referring to your
specific bike, since it has already been faced, but was a more general
comment directed to other readers of this thread.

Presumably you to will upgrade to a cartridge unit since your old cup
and cone unit is apparently toasted.

Sheldon "Facing Reality" Brown
+---------------------------------------------+
| I have suffered from being misunderstood |
| but I would have suffered a hell of a lot |
| more if I had been understood. |
| --Clarence Darrow |
+---------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

push it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with them (nor will I have them service in the future, however).

rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's a
moisture ingress problem.

Patrick W. said:

See, I figure not facing would allow more water to ingress around the shell
face. I've always had the idea that paint, no matter how smooth and even it
appears, is not perfectly smooth and would allow some seepage. Facing OTOH
would completely flatten and smooth everything.

Sure but is it critical? Maybe but not likely. There are so
many variables here it's not reasonable to concentrate on
the facing of a BB that was most probably flat before paint.

Paint isn't normally an issue on a squared BB - unless
there's a drip or sag.

Was the BB lubed properly? Was it set up just a touch too
loose or tight? Was the environment the same for your 12
year span as for the 1.5 year? A change of
neighborhood/route changes salt water spray for example.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:30:48 GMT, "Patrick W."

may have said:

push it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with them (nor will I have them service in the future, however).

rust in the bearings has /nothing/ to do with facing of the bb. that's a
moisture ingress problem.

See, I figure not facing would allow more water to ingress around the shell
face. I've always had the idea that paint, no matter how smooth and even it
appears, is not perfectly smooth and would allow some seepage. Facing OTOH
would completely flatten and smooth everything.

Leaving a surface that's open to corrosion from the edges.

If the bearings aren't sealed, then water's going to get in via the
spindle anyway, and possibly down the seat tube as well. If they are
sealed, then it's more important to make sure water can get out so
that it doesn't cause the BB to corrode in place, which is why some
manufacturers routinely drill a hole in the bottom of the BB shell to
provide a drain. Facing the shell isn't done for water exclusion,
it's done for bearing and mounting part alignment. With a sealed BB
whose shoulder is on the right, only the right side of the BB shell
would get faced.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:42:52 -0500, Sheldon Brown

may have said:

Patrick W. said:

This was not a cartridge BB. That's my point!!! 🙂

It was also about 10 years old, and by your description had been
ridden quite a lot. If there were shaft seals on the unit, they were
probably near failure before the work was done anyway, and they aren't
something that gets replaced without putting in a new BB. The water
you observed is far more likely to either have come in along the
spindle (or even down the seat post, for that matter) than past the
threads.

Quoted message said:

I understand that, but I also understand that your frame had already
been faced once, so it doesn't need to have it done again.

The comment about cartridge bottom brackets was not referring to your
specific bike, since it has already been faced, but was a more general
comment directed to other readers of this thread.

Presumably you to will upgrade to a cartridge unit since your old cup
and cone unit is apparently toasted.

After which the problem ought to be solved.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.