Bikes on Trains - was Cycle Tracks ad nauseum

"[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Overall, I think we'll lose if we continue to simply demand the right to take a bike. There's too
many good reasons why it's not sustainable as well as a good many poor but unchallengable reasons
(H&S). We need to be imaginative and innovative and find solutions that can be made to work.

What's the problem with just bringing back the guard's van? I personally think all train operators
should be required to have one on each train!

Rich

Not Responding said:

I'm in Hampshire and we still have the old trains. These are extremely poor in terms of comfort &
cleanliness but are great for taking bikes. You'll often see 10 or so bikes in the guard's van.
Very popular with mobs of bmx boys as well as 'real' cyclists.

Soon to be replaced with much better (for passengers)/worse (for cyclists) trains; 2 bikes
per train.

I've got mixed feelings about bikes on trains. Right now and personally, I think it's great to be
able to hop on with my bike. But I recognise that if cycling were less of a minority activity it
simply wouldn't work to allow everyone to bring a bike on board. It would add delay at stations
and real fares would need to be charged if a significant amount of 'train space' were taken up by
bikes rather than paying people.

I don't really agree with you. When your old slam-door stock was built, many more people _were_
cycling. There were small charges for carrying bikes on trains, but I could live with that. The
problem is that modern trains are not being built with any 'general cargo' space like the old
guards van, so that if more of the population switches to cycling there simply won't be enough room
for the bikes.

I've seen in Seattle (and I recall other people have seen in other foreign cities) fold-down racks
on the fronts of busses to carry six or eight bikes, and there's no reason why similar racks should
not fitted on the front of commuter trains.

However, the real problem with the railways these days is not cycling provision, it's the generally
appalling service. The last three times I've been down to England on business, I've had to stand for
at least two hours despite having paid for a full price first class reserved seat; and on each
occasion I've been more than twenty minutes late, on one occasion five hours. The system simply does
not work any more.

This contrasts strongly with twenty years ago, when my standard method for getting to places for
either work or pleasure was to cycle to my nearest mainline station, load bike and trailer onto
train, travel to nearest mainline station to my destination, and cycle the rest. Reasonably
reliably, in rasonable comfort, at very reasonable cost. Come back British Rail, even the sandwiches
are forgiven.

Quoted message said:

For commuting and short trips:

Every station should provide A1 standard parking (and wet weather gear/light storage) and at big
stations maybe extras such as changing rooms. This should be secure enough & in sufficient numbers
to allow regulars to leave a bike at each end. Accessibility by bike to & from the stations should
be made safe and easy.

There is _no_ _way_ I am going to leave a bike of mine on a railway station without _very_
secure storage.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗ ;; If God does not write LISP,
God writes some code so similar to ;; LISP as to make no difference.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:27:43 +0000, [Not Responding] wrote:

This is a subject which I'm interested in.

Slam doors trains with guards vans are a relic off the Ark. Weren't a lot of people hurt in a crash
at a mainline London station because they were all standing up? 'Toast rack' carriages simply aren't
up to modern crash standards. And allowing passengers to open doors at any time seems to me to be a
recipe for disaster. And how about making people in wheelchairs travel in a guards van.

Having said that of course, I agree with the posters who say that modern trains have stupidly
forgotten about the provision for luggage, pushchairs, bikes etc. etc. There should be a luggage
area in every train.

Sorry to be yawn-inducing, but look at the Swiss system. Trains and cable cars are used to keep tiny
communities alive - they stop to take on milk churns. You can book luggage on from a Swissair flight
to be delivered off the plane, on the train, to your hotel. Every station has a goods office.
Stations have cycle hire, so you can plan a day off out in the countryside. As for taking your own
bike, have a look at: sbb.chveloselb e.htmOpen ↗ "Groups of 10 or more people are not
allowed to take accompanied bikes on trains. Group outings such as parties of schoolchildren are
therefore advised to use our Rent a Bike service instead."

We can all start weeping now. Nine people can just turn up and travel.

And (weep, cry):"The blue train information board shows you whereabouts on the train the bicycle
compartment will be located so that you can go to the right part of the platform before the
train arrives."

Then again, praise is due to the excellent trains staff on the London to Folkestone service we took
one Sunday two weeks ago. As the train split at Ashford, we all had to scurry forward with the
bikes. The train guard (slam door service) tipped the seats up in an empty carriage to help us get
the bikes on board. Top marks to him for helpfulness - and it helped him get the service started
off quicker.

Quoted message said:

Overall, I think we'll lose if we continue to simply demand the right to take a bike. There's too
many good reasons why it's not sustainable as well as a good many poor but unchallengable reasons
(H&S). We need to be imaginative and innovative and find solutions that can be made to work.

We'll certainly lose if we give up as easily as that. I agree with some of your points about
commuter trains - but there is no reason why long distance trains couldn't provide a decent service.
Reduction in bike/rail provision is not necessarily declining in all countries - in Denmark for
example it has improved in recent years.

What's happening here is that the fragmentation of the rail industry has led to a wide variation in
attitudes to bikes on trains from the various companies. Anyone planning a long distance trip that
might involve two or even 3 operators has to virtually do a research project to see if it's
possible. Even then you never quite know what'll happen on the day!

As a result of this I reckon that use of even the available facilities may be declining - people
just give up and put the bikes on a car. Witness 'The Trainline's recent quiet dropping of it's
online bicycle ticket booking service - due to lack of demand.

The rail system used to be a brilliant back up for holiday rides without a car. You knew that on a
family cycle trip a major breakdown or a serious turn in the weather was not a disaster as long as
you could get to a station. People without access to cars could do trips that can now be very
difficult or risky.

Whilst we may have to do some compromising on the commuter train front at peak times, the battle for
decently organised bike carriage on long distance trains *will* eventually be won. Like virtually
everything in the 'transport' field, have a look at Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland
etc before deciding what's not possible.

Paul

Richard Goodman said:

What's the problem with just bringing back the guard's van? I personally think all train operators
should be required to have one on each train!

In our area, platform length. Choice of 4 carriages or three carriages plus guards van. On a revenue
and demand basis no contest I'm afraid.

Tony

Simon Brooke wrote: .

Quoted message said:

I've seen in Seattle (and I recall other people have seen in other foreign cities) fold-down racks
on the fronts of busses to carry six or eight bikes, and there's no reason why similar racks
should not fitted on the front of commuter trains.

That would be fun, climbing down onto the tracks to load your bike onto the rack on the front.

Tony

Richard Goodman said:

What's the problem with just bringing back the guard's van? I personally think all train operators
should be required to have one on each train!

In our area, platform length. Choice of 4 carriages or three carriages plus guards van. On a revenue
and demand basis no contest I'm afraid.

Tony

John Hearns said:

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:27:43 +0000, [Not Responding] wrote:

This is a subject which I'm interested in.

Slam doors trains with guards vans are a relic off the Ark. Weren't a lot of people hurt in a
crash at a mainline London station because they were all standing up?

Nearly every train before 10am and after 4pm on my line is standing room only. And they are not
slam door.

The problems of Britain's railways run far deeper than door design - or even bike carriage.

John B

John Hearns said:

Sorry to be yawn-inducing, but look at the Swiss system. Trains and cable cars are used to keep
tiny communities alive - they stop to take on milk churns. You can book luggage on from a Swissair
flight to be delivered off the plane, on the train, to your hotel. Every station has a goods
office. Stations have cycle hire, so you can plan a day off out in the countryside. As for taking
your own bike, have a look at: sbb.chveloselb e.htmOpen ↗ "Groups of 10 or more people
are not allowed to take accompanied bikes on trains. Group outings such as parties of
schoolchildren are therefore advised to use our Rent a Bike service instead."

Ooooh sweet memories. I spent 6 months working in Switzerland this year and you're right to praise
the rail service, It's glorious. Regular and punctual trains going everywhere you need to go. Clean
spacious carriages, double deckers very often. I was amazed the first time I went upstairs on a
Swiss train, I sat all by myself lounging about on a kind of "corner sofa" thing, with a nice table
for all my bits and pieces. I barely have that kind of luxury in my own front room.

Space throughout the train to stow bikes, plus, on many trains an additional guards van that would
fit ooodles of bikes! All of it accompanied by a friendly "can do" kind of attitude, miles away from
the surly "Oh I wish you'd just p*ss off and stop bothering me" aura that surrounds many of our
native rail staff.

True, you have to pay for and have a ticket for your bike but the price is perfectly reasonable and
I'll cheerfully cough up for that sort of service.

And, incredible idea, if you want to travel only one way, you actually buy a single ticket, for, get
this, about half the cost of a return one. Astonishing concept eh?

I'm off to Denmark for a few months in February so I'm looking forward to seeing how public
transport compares over there. Unfortunately I think it'll be a bit too chilly for much cycling but
hopefully I might get some miles in April/May time.

Anyone here happen to know what the weather and temperature is like around Copenhagen in Spring?
--

"Bob"

Email address is spamtrapped. To reply directly remove the beverage.

Simon Brooke wrote: .

Quoted message said:

I've seen in Seattle (and I recall other people have seen in other foreign cities) fold-down racks
on the fronts of busses to carry six or eight bikes, and there's no reason why similar racks
should not fitted on the front of commuter trains.

That would be fun, climbing down onto the tracks to load your bike onto the rack on the front.

Tony

John Hearns said:

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:27:43 +0000, [Not Responding] wrote:

This is a subject which I'm interested in.

Slam doors trains with guards vans are a relic off the Ark. Weren't a lot of people hurt in a
crash at a mainline London station because they were all standing up?

Nearly every train before 10am and after 4pm on my line is standing room only. And they are not
slam door.

The problems of Britain's railways run far deeper than door design - or even bike carriage.

John B

Richard Goodman said:

"[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Overall, I think we'll lose if we continue to simply demand the right to take a bike. There's too
many good reasons why it's not sustainable as well as a good many poor but unchallengable reasons
(H&S). We need to be imaginative and innovative and find solutions that can be made to work.

What's the problem with just bringing back the guard's van? I personally think all train operators
should be required to have one on each train!

There already is, its called a wheelchair space, and its never used.

Guard: Why thats a big bag.
Me: Why yes it is 🙂

Steve

John Hearns said:

Sorry to be yawn-inducing, but look at the Swiss system. Trains and cable cars are used to keep
tiny communities alive - they stop to take on milk churns. You can book luggage on from a Swissair
flight to be delivered off the plane, on the train, to your hotel. Every station has a goods
office. Stations have cycle hire, so you can plan a day off out in the countryside. As for taking
your own bike, have a look at: sbb.chveloselb e.htmOpen ↗ "Groups of 10 or more people
are not allowed to take accompanied bikes on trains. Group outings such as parties of
schoolchildren are therefore advised to use our Rent a Bike service instead."

Ooooh sweet memories. I spent 6 months working in Switzerland this year and you're right to praise
the rail service, It's glorious. Regular and punctual trains going everywhere you need to go. Clean
spacious carriages, double deckers very often. I was amazed the first time I went upstairs on a
Swiss train, I sat all by myself lounging about on a kind of "corner sofa" thing, with a nice table
for all my bits and pieces. I barely have that kind of luxury in my own front room.

Space throughout the train to stow bikes, plus, on many trains an additional guards van that would
fit ooodles of bikes! All of it accompanied by a friendly "can do" kind of attitude, miles away from
the surly "Oh I wish you'd just p*ss off and stop bothering me" aura that surrounds many of our
native rail staff.

True, you have to pay for and have a ticket for your bike but the price is perfectly reasonable and
I'll cheerfully cough up for that sort of service.

And, incredible idea, if you want to travel only one way, you actually buy a single ticket, for, get
this, about half the cost of a return one. Astonishing concept eh?

I'm off to Denmark for a few months in February so I'm looking forward to seeing how public
transport compares over there. Unfortunately I think it'll be a bit too chilly for much cycling but
hopefully I might get some miles in April/May time.

Anyone here happen to know what the weather and temperature is like around Copenhagen in Spring?
--

"Bob"

Email address is spamtrapped. To reply directly remove the beverage.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:37:39 +0000 someone who may be "John Hearns" <[email hidden]>
wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Weren't a lot of people hurt in a crash at a mainline London station because they were all
standing up?

Yes, but that had nothing to do with the door design.

Quoted message said:

And allowing passengers to open doors at any time seems to me to be a recipe for disaster.

Which is why it is in the process of being phased out. Outwith SE England it is rare to find
such doors.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

In article <[email hidden]>, Simon Brooke

Quoted message said:

I've seen in Seattle (and I recall other people have seen in other foreign cities) fold-down racks
on the fronts of busses to carry six or eight bikes, and there's no reason why similar racks
should not fitted on the front of commuter trains.

What, and at every station a queue of people climb down on to the track to load and unload it?
That's going to be fun in third-rail land. Buses are fitted with such racks in the Bay Area: I think
the usual argument against them in the UK is that they make Bull Bars look like the most gentle
thing imaginable if a pedestrian (or, indeed, a cyclist) gets hit.

In the Bay Area half of a coach on the trains that run up from San Jose to SF is simply bike rack,
and that seems to work well. However, I have a suspicion that the proportion of rail users who cycle
is larger there than here, simply because car use is so much more common.

ian

Richard Goodman said:

"[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Overall, I think we'll lose if we continue to simply demand the right to take a bike. There's too
many good reasons why it's not sustainable as well as a good many poor but unchallengable reasons
(H&S). We need to be imaginative and innovative and find solutions that can be made to work.

What's the problem with just bringing back the guard's van? I personally think all train operators
should be required to have one on each train!

There already is, its called a wheelchair space, and its never used.

Guard: Why thats a big bag.
Me: Why yes it is 🙂

Steve

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:37:39 +0000 someone who may be "John Hearns" <[email hidden]>
wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Weren't a lot of people hurt in a crash at a mainline London station because they were all
standing up?

Yes, but that had nothing to do with the door design.

Quoted message said:

And allowing passengers to open doors at any time seems to me to be a recipe for disaster.

Which is why it is in the process of being phased out. Outwith SE England it is rare to find
such doors.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

In article <[email hidden]>, Simon Brooke

Quoted message said:

I've seen in Seattle (and I recall other people have seen in other foreign cities) fold-down racks
on the fronts of busses to carry six or eight bikes, and there's no reason why similar racks
should not fitted on the front of commuter trains.

What, and at every station a queue of people climb down on to the track to load and unload it?
That's going to be fun in third-rail land. Buses are fitted with such racks in the Bay Area: I think
the usual argument against them in the UK is that they make Bull Bars look like the most gentle
thing imaginable if a pedestrian (or, indeed, a cyclist) gets hit.

In the Bay Area half of a coach on the trains that run up from San Jose to SF is simply bike rack,
and that seems to work well. However, I have a suspicion that the proportion of rail users who cycle
is larger there than here, simply because car use is so much more common.

ian

Tony Raven said:

Richard Goodman said:

What's the problem with just bringing back the guard's van? I personally think all train
operators should be required to have one on each train!

In our area, platform length. Choice of 4 carriages or three carriages plus guards van. On a
revenue and demand basis no contest I'm afraid.

A 'van' could take up say 1/4 of a carriage, as on the slam door trains. Neither is there any reason
why it could not be designed for flexible use with seats and gorrilla handholds in peak period
taking priority.

I think the train companies have gone beyond what is reasonable in trying to fit so many bum rests
into trains, forgetting that passengers also take luggage. Ever sat next to someone on who insists
on using a laptop, or reading a paper in one of those so-called airline designed seats? And it's not
only bikes, but push chairs, cases, and other belongings that need to be catered for.

Witness Wirgin, having to say they would run a road delivery service for luggage. What a joke.

And Scotrail who run a van between Wick and Inverness for bikes because their trains just do not
have the space for them - and nothing to do with numbers of passengers, but because of train design.

Bring back the van.

John B