Biker Misbehavior

ItsikH says:

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of reckless drivers and cyclers. The only solution is
education, and lots of it.

The real solution is to force all drivers to give uo their cars and ride a bike
everywhere for two weeks out of every year. Talk about education!

;-)

So, Mikey, your hatred is for all bikers, not just mountain bikers. Is your
hatred attributable to a physical impairment that precludes your from riding
bikes, or is it attributable to the obvious mental impairment that clouds
your judgment, resulting in the waste of a life that is yours?

I bet you're one fat piece of [censored] who probably lacks even the requisite
knowledge to ride a bike. Get off your ass, fattie, and stop being such a
miserable piece of [censored].

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin West <[email hidden]>
Subject: Responce to bikers.

Please see attached. The following it the same
document but without formating.

See this page:
http://www.marinbike.org/Campaigns/ShareTheRoad/Motorists.htm

A response to this paper need to be sent. You have my
permission to use all or any part of this letter on
your site or in the response.

. In 30 years of driving I have yet to see a biker
stop at a stop sign or light if it was clear! This
includes the very busy Sir Francis Drake Boulevard.
How can they complain about drivers breaking laws?

. Many times I have been behind bikers that were
weaving from the shoulder to the double yellow line.
When they finally had a wide enough place to drive so
that I could pass without going over the double line
the biker again shot over to the yellow line, (just
like he was asking to be hit). Both times this
happened, different days, I was about to gun it, but
because I am a defensive driver I did not assume the
biker would do the right thing. Anyone else would
have hit him. A bike site said that only kids weave,
adults ride in a straight line!

. Many bikers do not watch where they are going. I
have been nearly hit while walking on a paved path, by
a biker who was looking at the ground in front of his
wheel. I had to jump away, he never saw me!

. Bikers have claimed that no one has been killed by
being hit by a bike. This is nonsense. It may not
happed a lot but it does happen. I can not find the
statistics on injuries and deaths to walkers every
year by bikes but I would like to see it.

Bikers show no signs of self preservation i.e.
defensive driving. They do not look for erratic
drivers and do keep to the right. In Marin, there
were two bikers were killed by drivers in the last few
years. One driver was sleepy from anti-histamines the
other was drunk. If the bikers were aware of their
surroundings they would have noticed the erratic
driving and got out of the way. (For that matter they
would not have been in the way in the first place!)
In the drunken case the woman biker that was hit was
at the lead of a large group, on a hill, she was the
only one hit, (there is a concrete shrine for her at
the collision spot). The driver allegedly crossed
over the yellow line hit the biker and missed the
rest. Hard to believe! Since the only witnesses are
bikers, we will never know what really happened. I
have no doubt what happened is that the biker that
was hit was "arrogantly" up head of everyone probably
weaving near the yellow line and of course not looking
for oncoming cars. She no doubt never saw what hit
her. What happened after these two cases were the
bikers raving that the drivers need to be made aware
of bikers. Hence the "Share the Road signs", (one was
put in our property off the road without permission.)
Again both drivers were under the influence, no number
of "Share the road" signs would have made any
difference in these deaths. The bikers need to the
trained in defensive driving skills. At this time
they ride like they are invincible and when they get
hit blame it on bad drivers. There will always be bad
drivers! It is up to all of us to drive defensively
to keep alive! Bikers do not! There are bike trails
but most bikers do not use them, they would rather
play chicken with the cars! (There are plenty of
roads in West Marin that get little traffic.) The
fact that they bike on busy West Marin roads tells me
that they are looking for the danger and the adrenalin
rush that comes with it, (like the bungee jumpers,
steep mountain bikers, people that jump out of planes,
drive motorcycles too fast, etc.)

Bikers are claiming that they are banned from single
track trails only in Marin, more nonsense. Most
water district utilities ban bikes from trails. I
have not personally looked into it but talked to a
local advocate that did to check up on a bikers claim.
This person found NO water district in the SF Bay
Area, that allowed bikes on trails. As a matter of
fact some did not allow bikes on fire roads because of
the erosion going into their drinking water and road
maintenance expense. (I believe it was East Bay
Municipal District, i.e. Mount Diablo.

Try driving a car in West Marin on the weekend this it
what you will see.

. Bikers in groups biking side by side in twos and
threes, violation of the law.
. Bikers going over the speed limit down hills, Whites
Hill for example.
. Bikers do not yielding to cars that want to pass.
They never do! A car or strings of cars will follow
a biker for miles because it is not legal to cross
over the double line. (I could not find any vehicle
code that specifically says bikers can not block
traffic, i.e. required to pull over if it is not safe
for cars to pass. (I am sure I read a section along
time ago that stated that, must have been changed.)
In any case they have to follow the vehicle code.
There is as section that says in effect that "A driver
has to pull over if there are 5 or more cars following
it". I have never seen a biker pull over for cars
and I have seen a dozen or more cars following a
biker(s) for miles passing many places to pull over.
Just a message to bikers, "You are in a car and after
followinga biker for miles, finally getting fed up
decide to pass. A car comes out of nowhere and you
have a choice between a head on with a car or hitting
a biker. What would you choose? The problem the
accident would be the fault of the driver, because he
crossedover the double yellow line! I would think
that the biker would do everything to stay alive like
pulling over for cars so the drivers do not get
frustrated and try to pass, unsafely. Silly me,
that's not the way bikers think thought! I guess
they like leaving this world as martyrs.
. Bikers never stop at stop signs or stop lights if it
is clear.
. Bikers driving at night without lights or
reflectors, this is also in towns.
. Bikers wearing dark cloths, night and day, very
common.
. Bikers riding against traffic, see this a lot on Sir
Francis Drake Blvd going to work.
. Bikers riding in the road, when there is a bike
lane. In West Marin the bikers forced the county to
widen some of the roads for a "bike lane". (Right of
the white line, but still paved.) Where I live,
Lagunitas, they would have had to take out dozens of
redwoods to make it wider; they had no problem with
this! It was stopped by the locals. Through the
state park the road was not changed since the state
park system does not have the money, not to mention it
would require removing a hundreds of redwoods! It is
amazing the damage and expense the bikers get away
with, just to satisfy a few people and their carnal
desires.
. Bikers on fire roads DO NOT SLOW down when passing
walkers. There are laws but they vary with the local
district. (Rarely bikers are sited; there are not
enough rangers to patrol all the land.) They go too
fast especially down hill with NO regard for hikers or
especially kids on bikes. It is very dangerous to
hike on fire roads with children because of the bikers
(that is why we do not anymore, it is a shame because
I hiked these beautiful areas as a kid and it is not
safe anymore because of bikers!)

What happens if you give a biker a little honk while
passing or to tell them you are behind them? The
chances are you will get yelling and a finger gesture
(at the least), or car banging at the next stop light,
not to mention things thrown at the car (someone told
me that a biker through an apple at their car after
they honked,. I have yet to see another reaction or
hear from someone on getting any other reaction. (An
elderly woman wrote a letter to the editor a number of
years ago and said that she gave a biker a little honk
while passing and at the next stop light the biker
banged on her car and yelled at her, she was
frightened.)

Again how can bikers say it is the car drivers that
are the problem?

What is this the say about drivers not giving bikers
the right of way? What right of way do they have?
They do not have the right of way to keep block the
road and keep cars from passing or to ride in the
middle of the road or ride double and triple. They do
not have the right of way to run stop signs and
lights. So what are they talking about? Biking is
good for environmental health Ha, Ha, Ha, bikers drive
to their biking area, (bikers put more miles on cars
than the rest of us! Look in West Marin and at all
the cars with bike racks! A very small number of the
bike miles are commuting to work and then only if it
suites them that day and the weather. This article is
full of nonsense it has to be responded to.

As usual they distort facts, here is CVC 21202 It
does not say that a biker can ride in the middle of
the road, as this article says! It says "As close as
practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the
roadway except under any of the following situations:"

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a
roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of
traffic moving in the same direction at that time
shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand
curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the
following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or
vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection
or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions
(including, but not limited to, fixed or moving
objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals,
surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make
it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or
edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For
purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane"
is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a
vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is
authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a
highway, which highway carries traffic in one
direction only and has two or more marked traffic
lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of
that roadway as practicable.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm site
of CVC
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd11c1a4.htm

This is just the street bikers. The mountain bikers
are another problem and in the end will not win
because if they do get concessions, the damage to the
trails will be very apparent and despite what they say
they will eventually be "stopped".

Both mountain and street bikers continually spout
false statistics, unscientific claims and
un-substantiated claims. They quote parts of laws out
of context and have their own interruptions of laws.
Their behavior and attitude says it all. The damage
to the trails is clear and the danger to hikers even
on fire roads is clear. (We stopped hiking on fire
roads year ago because of bikers, it was way too
dangerous for kids who can not jump out of the way as
fast as adults.)

A number of years ago I in a room with a guy that said
he was the head of some bike group. When another
person in the room asked him about the bikers riding
on trails illegally he responded "It is a stupid law
and we believe we do not have to obey stupid laws."
Again their arrogance and defiance of the law is
showing and will be the end of them eventually. (I
believe this was the person caught making an illegal
trail in public land a few months ago!) My neighbor
had a run in with this guy (probably him) as well many
years ago. My neighbor put up a gate across the old
narrow gauge rail right of way after purchasing the
property. The previous owner let people use it. This
"trail" runs thru his property. This person showed up
one day with bolt cutters and cut the chain. When my
neighbor approached him the guy had a fit and attacked
my neighbor, saying he had a right to use this
"trail". Again this attitude seems to be a norm for
too many mountain bikers so in the end they will
loose. I talked to a deputy sheriff that said
finding bolt cutters on bikers is common and he has
frequently found pistols on them!

In the end this mountain biking "fad" will fade, not
go away. There will eventually be law suits against
the parks and counties, water districts etc, by
environmental groups, to stop the damage being done by
mountain bikes. Insurance companies will eventually
charge more for people that mountain bike (like
smokers) or not cover biking accidents. (Who pays for
the injury to a pedestrian by a bike?) They will
respond by banning bikes off fire road, and because
the bikers do not obey laws they do not like, the
districts will have to patrol their property at great
cost.

Un-fortunately it will take one or many deaths or
injuries to walkers by bikes, then law suits.
Probably children will be the victims since they are
not as aware as adults and can not jump out of the way
as fast. (I have seen many destructive and dangerous
fads come and go or change radically, off road
motorcycling, snowmobiles, jet skies are banned in
many areas now and more are coming, for example. Off
road vehicle flips kill hundreds of children every
year and there are many law suits pending. In the end
there will either be banning the vehicles or outlawing
their use for minors.)

What is defensive driving? It is being aware of your
surroundings (bikers are not) and not assume anything,
ie is that car coming up to the light going to stop,
a defensive driver does not assume the driver will
stop. I picked up defensive driving when I first
started driving a motorcycle. I always said "Drive
like you are invisible and everyone else is a bad
driver!"

I have seen many people run stop signs and lights, if
I was an ordinary driver I would have been hit, many
times! I also had someone in front of me in SF change
her mind about a left turn after sitting there for a
minute, she jerked over in the main lane, if I had
passed I would have been hit, in their blind spot.
Anyone else would have passed, but something told me
not to, this did have a passing lane!

Some other defensive driving techniques

. When a light turns yellow stop if can with slamming
on breaks,
. Do not accelerate thru yellow lights.
. Coast with foot over break,(not breaking) thru
intersections.
. Do not pass in intersections unless there is a
passing lane.
. Do not pass a car turning left unless there is a
lane, it is illegal in California to drive or pass on
the shoulder, (over the white line, even if it is
paved).
. Keep a long following distance, longer in bad
weather.
. A fact, if you are going 25 mph and have to stop
suddenly you will travel at least 10 feet before
hitting the breaks. (This is because our nerve signals
in our brain and from the eyes to the brain and to the
feet are actually slow.) Every fraction of a second is
needed to prevent an accident that is why you keep
your foot over the break in intersections and when you
see a potential problem, a kid chasing a ball, car
coming up to a stop sign to fast etc.
. Think you are a defensive driver then you should no
the answer to this question. If you are going at 60
MPH at night on a straight road and high beams on and
see a block in the road can you stop? The answer is
no. The distance the high beams reach is less than
the stopping distance for 60 MPH. (Standard breaks in
good condition.)
. One drink will slow down your reflexes. Since you
need every second that one drink can prevent you from
preventing an accident! (I wounder how many accidents
could have been prevented if no one drank!)

I took a defensive driving class in college about 30
years ago, it is a habit. Bikers have no defensive
driving skills and I am sure their car driving is just
as bad if not worse. (Too bad one can not print out
their driving record for these debates.) Again,
driving is a habit, it is hard work having to be aware
of both sides of the car rear view, far head and right
in front all at the same time. I get very stressed
out driving because of the concentration, but have
never been in a accident that was my fault and only
have been hit twice, (rear ended, not much I could
have done with either one, no room to get out of the
way and I saw one coming!) I have had my breaks fail
while driving twice and did not hit anyone because I
by habit follow at a long distance. I have also have
hit black ice and because of my following distance
avoided a collision.

A few years ago I saw a bumper sticker on a car with a
mountain bike on it, the bumper sticker said "Nature
Bats Last", and need I say more!

Read this page.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/cover/2000_Jun_28.BIKERCOV.html

Quoted message said:

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman said:

• In 30 years of driving I have yet to see a biker
stop at a stop sign or light if it was clear! This
includes the very busy Sir Francis Drake Boulevard.
How can they complain about drivers breaking laws?

How would you respond to a pedestrians crossing a clear street in a red light? Technically they are breaking the law, but assuming reasonable judgement and common sense, there is nothing wrong with that.

Mike Vandeman said:

• Many times I have been behind bikers that were
weaving from the shoulder to the double yellow line.
When they finally had a wide enough place to drive so
that I could pass without going over the double line
the biker again shot over to the yellow line, (just
like he was asking to be hit). A bike site said that only kids weave,
adults ride in a straight line!

Cyclers would only weave in respond to obstacles on the shoulders, the kind you could never even notice. Too many of those were thrown out of cars, the most common is broken beer bottles.

Mike Vandeman said:

• Many bikers do not watch where they are going. I
have been nearly hit while walking on a paved path, by
a biker who was looking at the ground in front of his
wheel. I had to jump away, he never saw me!

The problem is combined cycling and walking paths. IMHO, these are dangerous since bicycles are fast enough to injure pedestrians. I am extra careful when riding these, and prefer the road for *safety* reasons (not mine).

Mike Vandeman said:

• Bikers have claimed that no one has been killed by
being hit by a bike. This is nonsense. It may not
happed a lot but it does happen. I can not find the
statistics on injuries and deaths to walkers every
year by bikes but I would like to see it.

Nonsense. These are negligible. I have been hit by several reckless drivers, but never hit a pedstrian, nor have I heard of such an incident.

Mike Vandeman said:

• Bikers going over the speed limit down hills, Whites
Hill for example.

Speeding? I would like to see the cycler crossing the 55MPH limit just for fun.

Mike Vandeman said:

• Bikers do not yielding to cars that want to pass.

Well I have seen cyclers yielding, in the dosens, groups and singles, all across spain. Cyclers and drivers should and could respect each other. BTW, the assumption that the cycler should pull over shows total lack of understanding: The most dangerous moments in cycling are breaking and starting. A cycler going uphill should not stop, especially if the climb is steep.

I could go on and on, but it seems to me that the writer has never exsperienced cycling, or even bothered studying the matter.

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:35:23 GMT, "John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

..So, Mikey, your hatred is for all bikers, not just mountain bikers. Is your
..hatred attributable to a physical impairment that precludes your from riding
..bikes, or is it attributable to the obvious mental impairment that clouds
..your judgment, resulting in the waste of a life that is yours?
..
..I bet you're one fat piece of [censored] who probably lacks even the requisite
..knowledge to ride a bike. Get off your ass, fattie, and stop being such a
..miserable piece of [censored].

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm in better shape than you are.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:38:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm a miserable piece of [censored].

Guess your Exlax finally kicked in! I told you not to eat the entire
"chocolate" bar, dumb-ass.

--
Slacker