Bicycle Search Engine

Ryan Lanctot said:

Greetings:

Bicycles for Humanity, whose mission is to help empower women, children
and aids workers by providing them with bicycles, would like to invite
you to add your site to our new bike search engine!

Bicycles for Humanity's overall goal is to expand the work of its
members, build more sustainable initiatives and programs and to mobilise
and empower more of the world's poorest people.

Currently, we're supporting initiatives in Namibia by collecting used
bicycles, tools and parts and shipping them to those most in need.

Our website is located at http://www.bicycles-for-humanity.org

Our bike search engine is located at:
http://www.bicycles-for-humanity.org/portal

Regards, The Bicycles for Humanity Team.

Hmmm... Try being less sexist, and you might gain more support without
having to send spam advertising.

Cheers,

Vince

Vincent Patrick said:

Ryan Lanctot said:

Greetings:

Bicycles for Humanity, whose mission is to help empower women,
children and aids workers by providing them with bicycles, would
like to invite you to add your site to our new bike search engine!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regards, The Bicycles for Humanity Team.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm... Try being less sexist, and you might gain more support without
having to send spam advertising.

I suppose if they had said 'poor black people' you would have accused them
of being racist, you selfrighteous pompous git.
So tell me, what percentage of your income or time have you donated this
year to help those less fortunate than you?

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick said:

Ryan Lanctot said:

Greetings:

Bicycles for Humanity, whose mission is to help empower women,
children and aids workers by providing them with bicycles, would
like to invite you to add your site to our new bike search engine!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regards, The Bicycles for Humanity Team.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm... Try being less sexist, and you might gain more support without
having to send spam advertising.

I suppose if they had said 'poor black people' you would have accused them
of being racist, you selfrighteous pompous git.

As it turns out, no. LOL, all of us are self-righteous and pompous in our
own way - even you. :-)

From your outburst I guess that you support their sexism. If so, then you
could give them some support in their campaign for bikes, rather than
trying to bite my head off.

Before you do give your support though, try reversing the genders in the
original posting and see if you think the reversed form is reasonable.

Cheers,

Vince

'Bicycles for half of humanity??'

Vincent Patrick said:

Before you do give your support though, try reversing the genders in the
original posting and see if you think the reversed form is reasonable.

If the man want a bike, he gets a bike, if this means the woman and
children do without, tough. He ain't going to go without for them.

Its reasonable if we include reversing the economic sexism.

But you ignored this last time.

Aeek said:

Vincent Patrick said:

Before you do give your support though, try reversing the genders in the
original posting and see if you think the reversed form is reasonable.

If the man want a bike, he gets a bike, if this means the woman and
children do without, tough. He ain't going to go without for them.

A thoughtful comment, but I'm gonna disagree. :-/

If your blanket statement "He ain't going to go without for them" is how you
think all men behave, then there is no doubt you will feel the original
poster's bias is justified.

But if you think that, then you are ignoring the many African men who make
sacrifices for their wives and families.

More to the point of my original comment, the bike distribution may be more
successful by being more inclusive.

Cheers,

Vince

'Can a unicycle support one half of humanity?'

Vincent Patrick said:

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick said:

Ryan Lanctot wrote:

> Greetings:
>
> Bicycles for Humanity, whose mission is to help empower women,
> children and aids workers by providing them with bicycles, would
> like to invite you to add your site to our new bike search engine!

Quoted message said:

> Regards, The Bicycles for Humanity Team.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm... Try being less sexist, and you might gain more support without
having to send spam advertising.

I suppose if they had said 'poor black people' you would have accused them
of being racist, you selfrighteous pompous git.

As it turns out, no. LOL, all of us are self-righteous and pompous in our
own way - even you. :-)

From your outburst I guess that you support their sexism. If so, then you
could give them some support in their campaign for bikes, rather than
trying to bite my head off.

Before you do give your support though, try reversing the genders in the
original posting and see if you think the reversed form is reasonable.

Cheers,

Vince

'Bicycles for half of humanity??'

Who gives a [censored]? Go over there and live and then tell us if sexual
equality is the big deal it is here? Sure you might notice inequality,
but education, food, health, clothing, housing might rank a little
higher on the want list for the average family.

Donga

Donga said:

Vincent Patrick said:

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick wrote:
> Ryan Lanctot wrote:
>
>> Greetings:
>>
>> Bicycles for Humanity, whose mission is to help empower women,
>> children and aids workers by providing them with bicycles, would
>> like to invite you to add your site to our new bike search engine!

>> Regards, The Bicycles for Humanity Team.

> Hmmm... Try being less sexist, and you might gain more support without
> having to send spam advertising.

I suppose if they had said 'poor black people' you would have accused
them of being racist, you selfrighteous pompous git.

As it turns out, no. LOL, all of us are self-righteous and pompous in
our
own way - even you. :-)

From your outburst I guess that you support their sexism. If so, then
you could give them some support in their campaign for bikes, rather than
trying to bite my head off.

Before you do give your support though, try reversing the genders in the
original posting and see if you think the reversed form is reasonable.

Cheers,

Vince

'Bicycles for half of humanity??'

Who gives a [censored]? Go over there and live and then tell us if sexual
equality is the big deal it is here? Sure you might notice inequality,
but education, food, health, clothing, housing might rank a little
higher on the want list for the average family.

Donga

Yes, and presumably all those things rank higher than old bikes, too, but
that's what these bike distribution people are focussing on.

It was the original poster who wrote about bicycle distribution as if gender
matters, with some sort of suggestion that bike distribution should be
driven by gender. Seemed like ideological rubbish.

Cheers,

Vince

Vincent Patrick said:

It was the original poster who wrote about bicycle distribution as if
gender matters, with some sort of suggestion that bike distribution
should be driven by gender. Seemed like ideological rubbish.

In the situation, yes, gender matters a good deal.

Would you think "Bikes For Disadvantaged Children" to be unfair too? Why
don't we give the rich kids bikes as well? And why not the rich, and poor,
adults? And what about Vincent, why doesn't he get a bike?

Theo

Vincent Patrick said:

Theo Bekkers wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose if they had said 'poor black people' you would have
accused them of being racist, you self-righteous pompous git.

Quoted message said:

As it turns out, no. LOL, all of us are self-righteous and pompous
in our own way - even you. :-)

At least I know when I'm being a self-righteous pompous git.

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick said:

It was the original poster who wrote about bicycle distribution as if
gender matters, with some sort of suggestion that bike distribution
should be driven by gender. Seemed like ideological rubbish.

In the situation, yes, gender matters a good deal.

That's your view, but not everyone's view it seems.

Quoted message said:

Would you think "Bikes For Disadvantaged Children" to be unfair too?

No. Would you?

Quoted message said:

Why don't we give the rich kids bikes as well?

Errr... because they are fine with their new bicycles, perhaps?

Quoted message said:

And why not the rich, and poor, adults?

The bike distribution actually did include poor adults, as you might have
read. But only half the poor adults for some reason. Silly isn't it?

Quoted message said:

And what about Vincent, why doesn't he get a bike?

Got one. Thanks for the offer, though.

Now here's a couple of questions for you to ponder.

Theo, do you have a wife and children? Do you share a salary, home, cars,
finances and other things with them? Or do you live as a separate economic
entity?

Do you think African men are morally different from you?

Cheers

Vince

Vincent Patrick said:

Now here's a couple of questions for you to ponder.

Theo, do you have a wife and children? Do you share a salary, home,
cars, finances and other things with them? Or do you live as a
separate economic entity?

My children left home some years ago and are separate economic entities.
My wife has her own business, her own car, her own income. She owns half of
our house so we share that. We have pretty much always operated as separate
economic entities. She never rides my motorbike.

Theo

Vincent Patrick said:

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick said:

It was the original poster who wrote about bicycle distribution as if
gender matters, with some sort of suggestion that bike distribution
should be driven by gender. Seemed like ideological rubbish.

In the situation, yes, gender matters a good deal.

That's your view, but not everyone's view it seems.

Quoted message said:

Would you think "Bikes For Disadvantaged Children" to be unfair too?

No. Would you?

Quoted message said:

Why don't we give the rich kids bikes as well?

Errr... because they are fine with their new bicycles, perhaps?

Quoted message said:

And why not the rich, and poor, adults?

The bike distribution actually did include poor adults, as you might have
read. But only half the poor adults for some reason. Silly isn't it?

Quoted message said:

And what about Vincent, why doesn't he get a bike?

Got one. Thanks for the offer, though.

Now here's a couple of questions for you to ponder.

Theo, do you have a wife and children? Do you share a salary, home, cars,
finances and other things with them? Or do you live as a separate economic
entity?

Do you think African men are morally different from you?

Cheers

Vince

I couldn't comment on African morality myself. I've never been there. I
don't know their religious and cultural background and values. It's a
big continent with a lot of diversity and that magnifies my lack of
knowledge. I can't assume they have the same moral constructs as me,
let alone the rest of Australia. I certainly wouldn't try to force my
morality on them. Heck, if their morality says women don't go out of
the house to work but men do, hence the men need bikes, well shut the
gate, that's their business. I could just join a church and head over
there telling them to repent or burn in hell. You seem to have a lot of
confidence in your morality Vince.

Donga

Donga said:

I couldn't comment on African morality myself. I've never been there. I
don't know their religious and cultural background and values. It's a
big continent with a lot of diversity and that magnifies my lack of
knowledge. I can't assume they have the same moral constructs as me,
let alone the rest of Australia. I certainly wouldn't try to force my
morality on them. Heck, if their morality says women don't go out of
the house to work but men do, hence the men need bikes, well shut the
gate, that's their business. I could just join a church and head over
there telling them to repent or burn in hell. You seem to have a lot of
confidence in your morality Vince.

Cultural relativism is a dangerous thing, use it with care.

Bleve said:

Donga said:

I couldn't comment on African morality myself. I've never been there. I
don't know their religious and cultural background and values. It's a
big continent with a lot of diversity and that magnifies my lack of
knowledge. I can't assume they have the same moral constructs as me,
let alone the rest of Australia. I certainly wouldn't try to force my
morality on them. Heck, if their morality says women don't go out of
the house to work but men do, hence the men need bikes, well shut the
gate, that's their business. I could just join a church and head over
there telling them to repent or burn in hell. You seem to have a lot of
confidence in your morality Vince.

Cultural relativism is a dangerous thing, use it with care.

If you're saying it might end up in excusing ethnic cleansing or
somesuch, I see your point, but the reverse is intolerance of
diversity, with its own dangers.

Donga said:

Bleve said:

Donga said:

I couldn't comment on African morality myself. I've never been there. I
don't know their religious and cultural background and values. It's a
big continent with a lot of diversity and that magnifies my lack of
knowledge. I can't assume they have the same moral constructs as me,
let alone the rest of Australia. I certainly wouldn't try to force my
morality on them. Heck, if their morality says women don't go out of
the house to work but men do, hence the men need bikes, well shut the
gate, that's their business. I could just join a church and head over
there telling them to repent or burn in hell. You seem to have a lot of
confidence in your morality Vince.

Cultural relativism is a dangerous thing, use it with care.

If you're saying it might end up in excusing ethnic cleansing or
somesuch, I see your point, but the reverse is intolerance of
diversity, with its own dangers.

Yeah, it's a bit strange that some people here are so confident African men
are less moral than themselves.

Cheers,

Vince

'We all try to be tolerant of the intolerant people around us, but we
usually fail.'

Theo Bekkers said:

Vincent Patrick said:

Now here's a couple of questions for you to ponder.

Theo, do you have a wife and children? Do you share a salary, home,
cars, finances and other things with them? Or do you live as a
separate economic entity?

My children left home some years ago and are separate economic entities.
My wife has her own business, her own car, her own income. She owns half
of our house so we share that. We have pretty much always operated as
separate economic entities. She never rides my motorbike.

Theo

Still a fair bit of interdependency and sharing going on, with the house and
other things, especially in your child-rearing years.

The life expectancy of a Namibian man is somewhere under 45 years, so he is
less likely to be in your child-free (DINKy) position. Probably quite a
bit of sharing and economic interdependency going on too, and so a bike for
the African dad may help the family economically.

Cheers,

Vince

--
Frank
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"Vincent Patrick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Donga said:

Bleve said:

Donga wrote:

> I couldn't comment on African morality myself. I've never been there.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> don't know their religious and cultural background and values. It's a
> big continent with a lot of diversity and that magnifies my lack of
> knowledge. I can't assume they have the same moral constructs as me,
> let alone the rest of Australia. I certainly wouldn't try to force my
> morality on them. Heck, if their morality says women don't go out of
> the house to work but men do, hence the men need bikes, well shut the
> gate, that's their business. I could just join a church and head over
> there telling them to repent or burn in hell. You seem to have a lot

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> confidence in your morality Vince.

Cultural relativism is a dangerous thing, use it with care.

If you're saying it might end up in excusing ethnic cleansing or
somesuch, I see your point, but the reverse is intolerance of
diversity, with its own dangers.

Yeah, it's a bit strange that some people here are so confident African

men

Quoted message said:

are less moral than themselves.

Cheers,

Vince

'We all try to be tolerant of the intolerant people around us, but we
usually fail.'

In this case it seems that baby steps are what's needed. If the culture is
such that women don't ride bicycles, for whatever reason, it seems silly to
give them one. Surely in a situation where limited resources are to be
distributed it's best to direct those resources where they will be used.
It's better to give bikes that will be used rather than bikes that stand
idle (for whatever reason).

Once people have the ability to survive, the cultural aspects of equality,
etc. can be addressed. First, they got to eat. We take survival as granted -
for many people in the world survival is a luxury. Imagine, then, the luxury
of a bicycle which helps survival.

I have a Filipina friend who, although almost completely westernised, still
refuses to ride a bike. For her there is a deep cultural taboo which
precludes women on bikes. Why would I give her a bike? It seems to me that
would be a awaste of a resource.

In the case of the organisation in question here I think their approach is
fair - give bikes to the people who will use them. I'm sure there are other
organisations involved with inflicting our ethical/cultural/civilisation on
the people. It's hard to convert dead people...

I don't really want to dip into relativism but nor am I an absolutist. I
don't want to deprive a family of a chance of survival simply because I
believe the organisation working to enable survival is sexist. Perhaps it
is, but the bottom line is that a bike given to a man can (and does) enable
the family to eat. I'm afraid my moral ground is not high enough to withold
aid that helps women, children and men survive based on a (relatively)
sophisticated argument of sexism.

Charity is about giving someone what they need, not what you think they
should have. They need bikes, you think they need a different moral
construct. That can come later...

Me

Plodder (remove DAKS to reply) wrote:

Nicely put, Plodder.

Donga

Vincent Patrick said:

The life expectancy of a Namibian man is somewhere under 45 years, so
he is less likely to be in your child-free (DINKy) position.

That doesn't mean there are no older people.

Quoted message said:

Probably quite a bit of sharing and economic interdependency going on
too, and so a bike for the African dad may help the family
economically.

The African dad with a job mostly works away from home, being away for weeks
or even months at a time. If he takes the bike with him, consider that the
average African woman has to cart all the water used in the home from an
average distance of one mile.

I'm happy to think the group distributing the bicycles has done some
research, knows where the need lies, and is supplying that need. Unlike you
and I who are working off conjecture.

Theo