Berlin

John Hearns said:

Just back from Berlin...

And the best feature - cars taking a right hook (left in the UK) have to
give way to bicycles and pedestrians. They actually sit on the main
carriageway and wait for the street to clear. IMHO, this one law would
make the biggest difference to promoting cycling in the UK.

Bikes crossing the side road from the pavement? It is already the case
in the UK for pedestrians crossing a side road. See HC rule 146. I do
it when driving (and when cycling) and I expect it when walking.

--
Matt B

John Hearns said the following on 31/05/2006 09:00:

Quoted message said:

And the best feature - cars taking a right hook (left in the UK) have to
give way to bicycles and pedestrians. They actually sit on the main
carriageway and wait for the street to clear. IMHO, this one law would
make the biggest difference to promoting cycling in the UK.

This already is law in the UK for pedestrians - you have right of way
when crossing a side street. The same applies to cyclists on the road -
a car turning left is supposed to wait until the cyclist has cleared
before turning.

A cyclist on the pavement though I guess has no right of way at all
because they shouldn't be there! How about a cyclist on a shared or
segregated pavement/cyclepath though?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Apologies. I already posted this before.
I really didn't remember - I plead tiredness from the trip back,
and general insanity.

Paul Boyd said:

A cyclist on the pavement though I guess has no right of way at all
because they shouldn't be there! How about a cyclist on a shared or
segregated pavement/cyclepath though?

No right of way which is why they are more dangerous than the road
alongside contrary to popular belief.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

"Paul Boyd" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the best feature - cars taking a right hook (left in the UK)

have to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

give way to bicycles and pedestrians. They actually sit on the

main

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

carriageway and wait for the street to clear. IMHO, this one law

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

make the biggest difference to promoting cycling in the UK.

This already is law in the UK for pedestrians - you have right of

way

Quoted message said:

when crossing a side street. The same applies to cyclists on the

road -

Quoted message said:

a car turning left is supposed to wait until the cyclist has

cleared

Quoted message said:

before turning.

A cyclist on the pavement though I guess has no right of way at all
because they shouldn't be there! How about a cyclist on a shared

or

Quoted message said:

segregated pavement/cyclepath though?

There's an interesting article in the latest CTC magazine (June
2006), "Cycling facilitated?" by John Franklin.

He talks a little about the problems about the problems of cycle
tracks at intersections, but there's much more he could have said,
but didn't.

Consider that the very phrase "cycle track" has such a poor
reputation that people, even their proponents, avoid using it. Cycle
tracks are the facility that dare not speak its name. Their hazards
have been well known for two thirds of a century. The traffic
engineers, who you would have expected to be precise with their
vocabulary, put up signs warning of "cycle LANES", instead of "cycle
tracks" which probably doesn't help drivers to look in the right
place.

The Dutch and Danish know about the intersection problem too. The
Danes considered it the main reason that they had one of the highest
child cyclist accident rates in Europe, and began phasing them out.

It does no good to ask motorists to give way to cyclists, if those
motorists do not notice that the cyclists are there. To see the
cyclists, the motorists have to look not just at the intersection,
but further back, perhaps in each direction, as well. One result is
that the hazard to cyclists is asymmetric. A "wrong way" cyclist in
the Netherlands has about twelve times the risk of a with flow
cyclist.

One problem, if you are driver, in scanning a long stretch of track
on you left, is that you must do this while you are simultaneously
watching forward, and somewhat to the right, for the cars making a
right turn into the intersection

Presumably, the faster the cyclist, the more likelihood of that
cyclist not being seen, because the longer the stretch of cycle track
that should have been surveyed. The Dutch cyclists have the
advantage here, because Dutch traffic engineers estimate the speed of
their cyclists to be only about three quarters the speed of the
average British or US cyclist, let alone a cyclist on a road racing
bike.

It's mopeds who are the fastest. In a pilot experiment a few years
ago Dutch mopedists were permitted to avoid the bike paths, and their
accident rate dropped by two thirds. As a result they have been
generally removed from urban bike paths. There are no plans, so far
as I know, for a similar experiment with bikes.

Jeremy Parker

Tony Raven said the following on 31/05/2006 10:51:

Quoted message said:

No right of way which is why they are more dangerous than the road
alongside contrary to popular belief.

I suspected as much. So a ped, a cyclist on a shared path and a car
turning left all reach the junction at the same time. Car gives way to
ped (yeah, right!), ped crosses, cyclist sits there like a lemon because
he hasn't got right of way and patiently waits for the car to move off
after having given way to the pedestrian.

Except in practise, the car will just go anyway!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Tony Raven ([email hidden]) wrote:
: Paul Boyd wrote:
: >
: > A cyclist on the pavement though I guess has no right of way at all
: > because they shouldn't be there! How about a cyclist on a shared or
: > segregated pavement/cyclepath though?
: >

: No right of way which is why they are more dangerous than the road
: alongside contrary to popular belief.

Well, in Germany, cyclists in such a situation DO have right of way.
However, even in Germany, such cyclepaths are much more dangerous than
the road because drivers often fail to look, or because cyclists are
hidden behind parked cars or other obstacles (since the setup is: road,
parked cars, kerb, cyclepath, pedestrians).

I am not familiar with the literature, but apparently actual studies
exist (I think at least one by the German department of transport) that
putting cyclists on such a segregated path increases the risk to be in a
serious accident by somewhere between 4-6 times; in the best designed
cases where the continuation of the cyclepath across the road is marked
in red as a wide strip and sometimes elevated, by "only" 2 times.

And don't forget that if there is a cyclepath, you /must/ use it by
law. And this is actually enforced.

However, interestingly, public perception is widespread that it is
safer to be on a cyclepath. Ironically, insofar as this leads to more
people cycling, the availability of cyclepaths has an indirect positive
effect via safety in numbers. Still criminal in my view that their use
is mandatory.

m.

Marianne Promberger said:

And don't forget that if there is a cyclepath, you /must/ use it by
law. And this is actually enforced.

As I understand it, you are not obliged to use it if you believe to do
so would be more dangerous (as you say, the are plenty of official
statistics supporting the view that *all* cyclepaths are more dangerous
than the roads), so you just need to mention this fact to the officer,
prefereable followed by "... du sch*ss b*lle!". It works for Werner.

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Apologies. I already posted this before.
I really didn't remember - I plead tiredness from the trip back,
and general insanity.

No, do not apologise. For punishment I should just thwap you with a leafy
head of celery. I'm confident there'd be a market for the jpgs ;-)

sothach said:

Marianne Promberger said:

And don't forget that if there is a cyclepath, you /must/ use it by
law. And this is actually enforced.

As I understand it, you are not obliged to use it if you believe to do
so would be more dangerous (as you say, the are plenty of official
statistics supporting the view that *all* cyclepaths are more dangerous
than the roads), so you just need to mention this fact to the officer,
prefereable followed by "... du sch*ss b*lle!". It works for Werner.

Official rule in Germany is, that cycleways (segregated paths or marked
on the street) have to be used if marked with traffic signs 237, 240 or
241 (the three signs at the top of
<http://www.radwegweg.info/radwege/fsicher.htm>😉. Jurisdiction limits
further to ways, which are useable and reasonable. E.g. if cyclepath is
icy or blocked by any object, the biker is allowed to use the street.

Klaus
--
Rad weg! - der wahre Sinn der Radwege
http://www.radwegweg.info

FAQ zu de.rec.fahrrad: http://0x1a.de/rec/fahrrad/

Den 2006-05-31 12:20:42 skrev Jeremy Parker <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

One problem, if you are driver, in scanning a long stretch of track
on you left, is that you must do this while you are simultaneously
watching forward, and somewhat to the right, for the cars making a
right turn into the intersection

You're supposed to take your time and only go when you know it's safe.

You sound a little like the dorks who drive into a crossing even though
it's not clear on the other side. Then the lights change and the crossing
is blocked. Not smart.

Erik Sandblom

sothach said:

Marianne Promberger said:

And don't forget that if there is a cyclepath, you /must/ use it by
law. And this is actually enforced.

As I understand it, you are not obliged to use it if you believe to do
so would be more dangerous (as you say, the are plenty of official
statistics supporting the view that *all* cyclepaths are more dangerous
than the roads), so you just need to mention this fact to the officer,
prefereable followed by "... du sch*ss b*lle!". It works for Werner.

Thats correct. It enables road races, and more importantly training
rides to be carried out on the road. However, if you come to greif
you'd better have a good reason for not using it. In my experience they
don't usually bother, like most cops, depends on how bad a day they've had.

Tosspot of T-Online said:

sothach said:

Marianne Promberger said:

And don't forget that if there is a cyclepath, you /must/ use it by
law. And this is actually enforced.

As I understand it, you are not obliged to use it if you believe to do
so would be more dangerous (as you say, the are plenty of official
statistics supporting the view that *all* cyclepaths are more dangerous
than the roads), so you just need to mention this fact to the officer,
prefereable followed by "... du sch*ss b*lle!". It works for Werner.

Thats correct. It enables road races, and more importantly training
rides to be carried out on the road. However, if you come to greif
you'd better have a good reason for not using it. In my experience they
don't usually bother, like most cops, depends on how bad a day they've had.

I've no experience of the German police, but I can tell you that some German
motorists will get very irate if you are riding on 'their' road where they
think that there is a cycle path you are supposed to use. I've had passing
motorists pointing out a path using what appeared to be intended as helpful
gestures, and others being somewhat more aggressive with horns and other
sorts of gestures. No-one cut me up though.
--
Steph Peters
Chorlton Wanderers Cycling Group
Monthly slow and easy rides from South Manchester
http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/cycling/chwan.htm

In article <[email hidden]>
Steph Peters <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've no experience of the German police,

I've had the stern reprimand on attempting to cross an empty road
against the lights, but I just went back to the kerb and waited so he
didn't need to shoot me.

Quoted message said:

but I can tell you that some German
motorists will get very irate if you are riding on 'their' road where they
think that there is a cycle path you are supposed to use. I've had passing
motorists pointing out a path using what appeared to be intended as helpful
gestures, and others being somewhat more aggressive with horns and other
sorts of gestures. No-one cut me up though.

ISTR that making aggressive gestures at other road users is an offence
in Germany, and is taken quite seriously.

Steph Peters wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've no experience of the German police, but I can tell you that some German
motorists will get very irate if you are riding on 'their' road where they
think that there is a cycle path you are supposed to use. I've had passing
motorists pointing out a path using what appeared to be intended as helpful
gestures, and others being somewhat more aggressive with horns and other
sorts of gestures. No-one cut me up though.

When dealing with the Germans it's very helpful to remember the old
adage 'Every German kid wants to grow up to be a schoolteacher or a
Policeman'. I was told this by a German, and after several years of
observation I a) believe it to be true, and b) It explains *so* much.

We went to the Frankfurt motorshow a few years back and went to the
Mercedes stand and inquired where we could the bit of road that comes
with all Mercedes. He didn't see the funny side.

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>
Steph Peters <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've no experience of the German police,

I've had the stern reprimand on attempting to cross an empty road
against the lights, but I just went back to the kerb and waited so he
didn't need to shoot me.

Yep, had that one. Funny experience last year when I crossed against a
red man and got 'The Finger'[1] from an old lady on the other side.
Now, these lights were clearly broke, so with a bit of time on my hands
I parked myself against a lamp post and settled back to watch. I kid
you not, she nearly had a coronary before *eventually* deciding that in
her particualr case life was too short and crossed the road. Gave me a
warm feeeling inside.

They dont normally shoot you because of the paperwork. Unless your
obviously Turkish in which case they seem to make an exception.

[1] See previous post.

Tosspot said:

When dealing with the Germans it's very helpful to remember the old
adage 'Every German kid wants to grow up to be a schoolteacher or a
Policeman'. I was told this by a German, and after several years of
observation I a) believe it to be true, and b) It explains *so* much.

We went to the Frankfurt motorshow a few years back and went to the
Mercedes stand and inquired where we could the bit of road that comes
with all Mercedes. He didn't see the funny side.

You forgot another old adage - a German joke is no laughing matter ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 09:21:19 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tosspot said:

When dealing with the Germans it's very helpful to remember the old
adage 'Every German kid wants to grow up to be a schoolteacher or a
Policeman'. I was told this by a German, and after several years of
observation I a) believe it to be true, and b) It explains *so* much.

We went to the Frankfurt motorshow a few years back and went to the
Mercedes stand and inquired where we could the bit of road that comes
with all Mercedes. He didn't see the funny side.

You forgot another old adage - a German joke is no laughing matter ;-)

A friend works for a German bank. OK, _the_ German Bank. His boss (a
German) told him "people think all Germans are fat and have no sense
of humour. This isn't true. We're not all fat."

Tim

Tim Hall said:

A friend works for a German bank. OK, _the_ German Bank. His boss (a
German) told him "people think all Germans are fat and have no sense
of humour. This isn't true. We're not all fat."

As a German friend explained to me a few years ago, when your country is
run by a Mr Cabbage and most surnames have a literal translation, it
doesn't do to have jokes. He had once worked with a Mr Don'tLaugh
(translated)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci