Bench lift and shoulders

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

He's a moron.

"rev" <[email hidden]*an*> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
squat, DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my
Bench press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of
my shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned
but made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He
said that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
enlist the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

If you don't compete, I suppose it's not a problem, but you might as
well find an exercise you like better than the bench press if that one
bothers you. Either that or work on some assistance exercises, changes
to your technique, or both to deal with whatever issues you have.
People do work a partial range of motion on the bench press sometimes
but as a help, not a replacement, to the full movement. Try searching
the web for "bench press board press" and you'll find, e.g., this:

http://www.criticalbench.com/board-press.htm

Personally, I find one-armed overhead pressing much more satisfying.
You won't get the big numbers you get when benching - being able to put
up half your bodyweight in a strict one-armed military press is
considered pretty good - but your shoulders will likely like it a lot
better. Check out http://www.exrx.net and look at the Arnold Press.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

--
Keith

Would it not be a good idea to just pre-retract the scapula before beginning
the press?

Bob

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

Keith, why didn't anybody adopt Hatfield's Scap Bench??

It would seem that if shoulder health was any way a concern, that scap
benches would have sprang up all across the land. But most folks don't seem
to know about themor care.

Wouldn't scap benches help with this kind of thing?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Lee Michaels said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
>DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
>press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
>shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
>incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
>talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
>had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
>made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
>that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
>the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
>

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

Keith, why didn't anybody adopt Hatfield's Scap Bench??

It would seem that if shoulder health was any way a concern, that scap
benches would have sprang up all across the land. But most folks don't seem
to know about themor care.

Wouldn't scap benches help with this kind of thing?

I think the idea may have been good, but most people really don't want
to go into unfamiliar ground. A simpler solution would have been to
taper the bench radically in the mid-back area.

Hmmmm - maybe we should build and market that idea. And patent it.

________ _______
\_______/
_______
________/ \ ______

New type of scap bench.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Lee Michaels said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
> in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
> >squat,
> >DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
> >press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
> >shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
> >incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
> >talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
> >had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned
> >but
> >made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
> >that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
> >enlist
> >the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
> >
>
> He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that
can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM
is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint
involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower
the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is
transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

Keith, why didn't anybody adopt Hatfield's Scap Bench??

It would seem that if shoulder health was any way a concern, that scap
benches would have sprang up all across the land. But most folks don't
seem
to know about themor care.

Wouldn't scap benches help with this kind of thing?

I think the idea may have been good, but most people really don't want
to go into unfamiliar ground. A simpler solution would have been to
taper the bench radically in the mid-back area.

Hmmmm - maybe we should build and market that idea. And patent it.

________ _______
\_______/
_______
________/ \ ______

New type of scap bench.

Ahhhhhh......................., a PASSIVE scap bench design. Good idea.

Someone should make a few and put them out there. You could never make a
biz out of just a bench and/or a few items like this. The more copies the
letter.

Let people steal it. Think of it as freeware. A public domain passive scap
bench. Make plans available. It would benefit everybody. And you wouldn't
have to start a factory/business either. Which would be a good thing.

Lee Michaels

rev *an* said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

Cheers

I don't bench, but I think you'll be interested in this article.

3-4" seems pretty close to the chest. Perhaps you shouldn't allow your
elbows to pass below the level of your shoulders.

_____________________________________________________

Bench-Press ROM
by Timothy C. Fritz, CSCS
Muscle & Fitness
September, 2001
p. 212

QUESTION: What is the proper technique for the bench press? How can I
avoid the lingering shoulder injuries that so many experienced lifters
seem to have acquired from years of pressing?

ANSWER: As with any exercise, performing the bench press properly
through its full range of motion (ROM) is important for complete
muscle development. And while the bench press is a relatively simple
movement, you must use caution to prevent injury at the extreme ends
of the exercise. A good working knowledge of bench-press mechanics and
proper execution will enable you to safely get the most from the "big
daddy" of chest exercises.

Muscle Involvement
The principal muscles involved in the bench press are the pectoralis
major (pecs), anterior deltoids and the triceps. Several other muscles
of the chest, back and shoulders are involved as assistors and/or
stabilizers, but pec development is the primanj goal.

Horizontal adduction -- movement of the outstretched arm across and in
front of the body -- is the most direct movement utilizing the
pectoralis major. Usually, using a barbell limits the degree of
horizontal adduction but provides greater safety and allows the use of
heavier weights. In most cases, horizontal adduction should not exceed
the midline of the body (your elbow shouldn't pass below the level of
your shoulder). Beyond this point, emphasis of the movement shifts
from the pec muscles to the shoulder joints, a situation that's
neither beneficial nor desirable. Yet individuals who have longer arms
or flatter chests who have been instructed to touch their chests with
the bar will often commit this biomechanical crime.

Upper & Lower Limits
The start and finish positions of the bench press define its ROM. The
downward movement of the press depends on chest size, as the bar can
only be lowered until it meets the chest. This isn't necessarily the
right ROM endpoint for everyone, however. Depending on your physical
dimensions and the length of your limbs, touching the bar to your
chest might exceed your physical Iimits. Most importantly, your
shoulders should be pulled back (like you're trying to pinch your
shoulder blades together to put your pecs in a prestretched position
and extend the ROM. This simple move is crucial for maintaining
tension in the pets throughout the movement and eliminates the need to
extend the ROM by opening the shoulder joints.

Just as excessive horizontal adduction can put undue stress
on the shoulders, a grip that's too wide or too narrow can do the same
thing. Ideally, the proper grip width will put approximately a
90-degree angle in the elbow joints when the upper arms are in the
bottom position (about parallel to the floor. If you're uncertain,
play it safe by stopping the downward movement when your elbows pass
the back of your shoulders.

After you hit the bottom of your ROM, push the bar up and back
slightly so the finish position is over your shoulders (rather than
over the lower portion of your pecs). If you push the bar straight up,
the tension shifts from your pecs to your triceps. At the top of the
movement your arms should be fully extended, but not locked, to keep
tension on the muscles.

Final Word
The bench press is a safe and useful exercise for chest growth.
Dumbbell and cable movements are good supplemental exercises for
increased ROM and overall development. But more isn't always better,
so be careful not to take any movement farther than your body can
safely tolerate.

Thanks for all the replies and information. Some good things for me to
work on.

Cheers

Bob

Quoted message said:

Bench-Press ROM
by Timothy C. Fritz, CSCS
Muscle & Fitness
September, 2001
p. 212

Quoted message said:

After you hit the bottom of your ROM, push the bar up and back
slightly so the finish position is over your shoulders (rather than
over the lower portion of your pecs). If you push the bar straight up,
the tension shifts from your pecs to your triceps. At the top of the
movement your arms should be fully extended, but not locked, to keep
tension on the muscles.

I'm not so sure about this part. Again, there are differences of
opinion. When I lift, I make a point of locking out. Your joints
were meant to lock and support load. And by locking out, you
give your muscles a little rest to help you with your next rep.

Quoted message said:

Ideally, the proper grip width will put approximately a
90-degree angle in the elbow joints when the upper arms are in the
bottom position (about parallel to the floor.

I'm not so sure about this part either. With upper arms at 90 degrees
to body (at 3:00 and 9:00), wouldn't there be increased stress on the
shoulder capsule? Wouldn't upper arms at 45 degrees to body (4:00 and
8:00) "powerlifting style" be preferable for decreasing stress on the
shoulder joint and capsule?

Also, Fritz didn't address the point of bb contact with the chest so
it should be noted that high-chest contact increases stress on the
shoulder capsule.

I don't bench and now that I've had a taste of what it means to have a
sore shoulder from lifting, I'm even less motivated to do it.
However, if I ever do, I'll probably go with the "board press"
technique. I already plan to do warm-up drills and stretches for my
shoulder and I don't think that my bodily dimensions would make it
unwise for me to make BB contact with my midchest while benching
"heavy" (whatever that might mean for me). Therefore, I don't think I
would have to stop before my elbows pass below the level of my
shoulders.

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because
he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned
but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that
can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM
is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint
involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching
or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower
the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But
if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is
transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

Keith, I don't completely follow the anatomy here but a question - would
the improved flexibility one would get through learning the Olympic
clean, particularly the high elbows, help a bench presser keep the load
off his/her rotator cuffs at the bottom of the movement? Or would it
hinder or make no difference? Obviously individual anatomy plays
something of a role but I'm curious if you think it's possible to
generalize about this.

Thanks.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:59:37 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or, keep your shoulder muscles in balance and keep your rotators
strong.

Quoted message said:

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

I disagree that partial squats are not good. I never do them but I
should.

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:59:37 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
>DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
>press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
>shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
>incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
>talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
>had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
>made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
>that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
>the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
>

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or, keep your shoulder muscles in balance and keep your rotators
strong.

It's not a matter of strength - it's a matter of achieving a ROM in a
manner the joint capsule is not designed to do. The scapula have to move.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

I disagree that partial squats are not good. I never do them but I
should.

I'd do a high box squat instead.

--
Keith

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Freides said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
>squat,
>DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
>press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
>shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
>incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
>talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because
>he
>had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned
>but
>made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
>that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
>enlist
>the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
>

He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that
can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM
is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint
involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching
or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower
the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But
if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is
transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

Keith, I don't completely follow the anatomy here but a question - would
the improved flexibility one would get through learning the Olympic
clean, particularly the high elbows, help a bench presser keep the load
off his/her rotator cuffs at the bottom of the movement? Or would it
hinder or make no difference? Obviously individual anatomy plays
something of a role but I'm curious if you think it's possible to
generalize about this.

No, the olympic lifts have nothing to do with this ROM. Some people with
high chests and relatively short humerus bones can bring a bar down to
the chest with the scapula pinned and not put pressure on the shoulder
joint. The flatter the chest and the longer the humerus the more the
scapula has to be able to retract to be able to bring a bar down the
chest. And there is going to be some stress on the shoulder capsule -
both the ligaments on the small rotator cuff muscles. This is easy to
demonstrate with a broomstick. The movement is transverse adduction (I
screwed up and called it abduction in my original post.)

The olympic clean requires a fairly normal shoulder flexion to catch the
bar on the shoulders. If you can hold your arms straight out in front of
you that is enough shoulder flexion to catch the olympic clean. The ROM
most people have to improve on is in the wrist and elbows to catch high.

The squat [censored] requires way more shoulder flexion than the clean, but
neither will help transverse adduction.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Freides said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*>
> wrote
> in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
> >squat,
> >DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my
> >Bench
> >press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
> >shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
> >incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I
> >was
> >talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that
> >because
> >he
> >had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had
> >returned
> >but
> >made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He
> >said
> >that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
> >enlist
> >the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
> >
>
> He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement
that
can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar
of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction
ROM
is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint
involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on
the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench -
arching
or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their
back.

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to
lower
the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good
idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to
the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea.
But
if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is
transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the
shoulders.

Keith, I don't completely follow the anatomy here but a question -
would
the improved flexibility one would get through learning the Olympic
clean, particularly the high elbows, help a bench presser keep the
load
off his/her rotator cuffs at the bottom of the movement? Or would it
hinder or make no difference? Obviously individual anatomy plays
something of a role but I'm curious if you think it's possible to
generalize about this.

No, the olympic lifts have nothing to do with this ROM. Some people
with
high chests and relatively short humerus bones can bring a bar down to
the chest with the scapula pinned and not put pressure on the shoulder
joint. The flatter the chest and the longer the humerus the more the
scapula has to be able to retract to be able to bring a bar down the
chest. And there is going to be some stress on the shoulder capsule -
both the ligaments on the small rotator cuff muscles. This is easy to
demonstrate with a broomstick. The movement is transverse adduction (I
screwed up and called it abduction in my original post.)

The olympic clean requires a fairly normal shoulder flexion to catch
the
bar on the shoulders. If you can hold your arms straight out in front
of
you that is enough shoulder flexion to catch the olympic clean. The
ROM
most people have to improve on is in the wrist and elbows to catch
high.

The squat [censored] requires way more shoulder flexion than the clean,
but
neither will help transverse adduction.

I didn't think it would help, but since I don't do either of these
movements myself and I know you do both, I was curious.

Thank you, sir.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

--
Keith

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Freides said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Freides said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*>
>> wrote
>> in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
>> >squat,
>> >DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my
>> >Bench
>> >press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
>> >shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
>> >incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I
>> >was
>> >talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that
>> >because
>> >he
>> >had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had
>> >returned
>> >but
>> >made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He
>> >said
>> >that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
>> >enlist
>> >the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
>> >
>>
>> He's a moron.
>
> Not necessariy - depending on his logic.
>
> In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement
> that
> can
> be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
> combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar
> of
> course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction
> ROM
> is
> used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
> retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint
> involving
> the rotator cuffs.
>
> When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
> effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on
> the
> rotator cuff muscles.
>
> Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
> scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench -
> arching
> or
> putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their
> back.
>
> Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to
> lower
> the
> bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good
> idea.
> The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to
> the
> shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea.
> But
> if
> you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is
> transferred
> to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the
> shoulders.

Keith, I don't completely follow the anatomy here but a question -
would
the improved flexibility one would get through learning the Olympic
clean, particularly the high elbows, help a bench presser keep the
load
off his/her rotator cuffs at the bottom of the movement? Or would it
hinder or make no difference? Obviously individual anatomy plays
something of a role but I'm curious if you think it's possible to
generalize about this.

No, the olympic lifts have nothing to do with this ROM. Some people
with
high chests and relatively short humerus bones can bring a bar down to
the chest with the scapula pinned and not put pressure on the shoulder
joint. The flatter the chest and the longer the humerus the more the
scapula has to be able to retract to be able to bring a bar down the
chest. And there is going to be some stress on the shoulder capsule -
both the ligaments on the small rotator cuff muscles. This is easy to
demonstrate with a broomstick. The movement is transverse adduction (I
screwed up and called it abduction in my original post.)

The olympic clean requires a fairly normal shoulder flexion to catch
the
bar on the shoulders. If you can hold your arms straight out in front
of
you that is enough shoulder flexion to catch the olympic clean. The
ROM
most people have to improve on is in the wrist and elbows to catch
high.

The squat [censored] requires way more shoulder flexion than the clean,
but
neither will help transverse adduction.

I didn't think it would help, but since I don't do either of these
movements myself and I know you do both, I was curious.

Interesting aside to that. I was fairly typical in that as my [censored]
increased my bench headed downhill and vice versa. There is a japanese
guy who holds world records in both (really short humerus) and aside
from the anatomical advantage I can't figure out how he can do it.

--
Keith

On Thu, 12 May 2005 06:39:08 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:59:37 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
> in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my squat,
> >DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
> >press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
> >shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
> >incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
> >talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
> >had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned but
> >made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
> >that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to enlist
> >the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
> >
>
> He's a moron.

Not necessariy - depending on his logic.

In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
the rotator cuffs.

When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
rotator cuff muscles.

Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or, keep your shoulder muscles in balance and keep your rotators
strong.

It's not a matter of strength - it's a matter of achieving a ROM in a
manner the joint capsule is not designed to do. The scapula have to move.

You're not saying that bringing ones hands back to the chest position
is an unnatural movement are you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

I disagree that partial squats are not good. I never do them but I
should.

I'd do a high box squat instead.

I can see a box squat being far more dangerous than a partial squat
i.e. sudden impact with the box on a very heavy partial.

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 06:39:08 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:59:37 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article <[email hidden]>,
> John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*> wrote
>> in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
>> >squat,
>> >DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my Bench
>> >press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
>> >shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
>> >incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I was
>> >talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that because he
>> >had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had returned
>> >but
>> >made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He said
>> >that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
>> >enlist
>> >the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
>> >
>>
>> He's a moron.
>
>Not necessariy - depending on his logic.
>
>In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that can
>be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
>combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
>course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction ROM is
>used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
>retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint involving
>the rotator cuffs.
>
>When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
>effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
>rotator cuff muscles.
>
>Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
>scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching or
>putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their back.

Or, keep your shoulder muscles in balance and keep your rotators
strong.

It's not a matter of strength - it's a matter of achieving a ROM in a
manner the joint capsule is not designed to do. The scapula have to move.

You're not saying that bringing ones hands back to the chest position
is an unnatural movement are you?

No. I'm saying doing it with the scapula unable to move is unnatural!
When you have a heavy weight pinning your scapula to the bench it is
unnatural.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower the
>bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good idea.
>The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to the
>shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But if
>you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is transferred
>to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the shoulders.

I disagree that partial squats are not good. I never do them but I
should.

I'd do a high box squat instead.

I can see a box squat being far more dangerous than a partial squat
i.e. sudden impact with the box on a very heavy partial.

You don't want to do that. But you don't with a high box squat. Very
gentle drop onto the box. It has been used by champion powerlifters
since the sport was invented. Bill West, John Kuc, Roger Estep, Louie
Simmons, etc, etc.

There is no sudden impact.

--
Keith

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 11:02:50 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 06:39:08 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:59:37 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >In article <[email hidden]>,
>> > John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:51:17 +0930, rev <[email hidden]*an*>
>> >> wrote
>> >> in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> >My flat BB bench press has never been that good, for me, while my
>> >> >squat,
>> >> >DL etc have been going along nicely for an old timer. While my
>> >> >Bench
>> >> >press has been ever so slowly improving I find that because of my
>> >> >shoulders [censored] at me I tend to do most of my chest stuff with
>> >> >incline bench DB, flys, and various other means. Last night I
>> >> >was
>> >> >talking to another lifter at the gym and he mentioned that
>> >> >because he
>> >> >had similar issues he left the flat bench but recently had
>> >> >returned
>> >> >but
>> >> >made sure he didnt lower the bar to anywhere near his chest. He
>> >> >said
>> >> >that lowering it to maybe 3-4 inches off his chest didnt seem to
>> >> >enlist
>> >> >the shoulders only the chest. Any comments?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> He's a moron.
>> >
>> >Not necessariy - depending on his logic.
>> >
>> >In the flat bench movement you have a certain range of movement that
>> >can
>> >be achieved through a natural transverse abduction of the shoulders
>> >combined with flexion of the elbows. IOW - when you lower the bar of
>> >course the shoulders are involved. But once the natural abduction
>> >ROM is
>> >used up the last 3-4" is often achieved through either scapular
>> >retraction (adduction) or through action directly on the joint
>> >involving
>> >the rotator cuffs.
>> >
>> >When lying flat on the bench with a heavy weight the scapula is
>> >effectively pinned to the bench. So the last 3-4" can be hell on the
>> >rotator cuff muscles.
>> >
>> >Two easy work-arounds. Powerlifters generally try and release the
>> >scapula to retract by getting their mid-back off the bench - arching
>> >or
>> >putting their weight on their necks and butts rather than their
>> >back.
>>
>> Or, keep your shoulder muscles in balance and keep your rotators
>> strong.
>
>It's not a matter of strength - it's a matter of achieving a ROM in a
>manner the joint capsule is not designed to do. The scapula have to
>move.

You're not saying that bringing ones hands back to the chest position
is an unnatural movement are you?

No. I'm saying doing it with the scapula unable to move is unnatural!
When you have a heavy weight pinning your scapula to the bench it is
unnatural.

I don't ever see the weight pinning your scapula to the bench being a
problem that would be corrected by not bringing the weight down all
the way to the chest. Having them pinned back would put the rotators
in a better position at the bottom of the lift.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> >
>> >Or simply do the flat bench and place 2 2x6's on your chest to lower
>> >the
>> >bar to. Simply stopping a heavy weight 3-4" short is not a good
>> >idea.
>> >The full reversal (amortization) force is going to go directly to
>> >the
>> >shoulder joints. Just like squatting partial is not a good idea. But
>> >if
>> >you put boards on the chest the force during amortization is
>> >transferred
>> >to hard surface of the sternum and rib cage as well as the
>> >shoulders.
>>
>> I disagree that partial squats are not good. I never do them but I
>> should.
>
>I'd do a high box squat instead.

I can see a box squat being far more dangerous than a partial squat
i.e. sudden impact with the box on a very heavy partial.

You don't want to do that. But you don't with a high box squat. Very
gentle drop onto the box. It has been used by champion powerlifters
since the sport was invented. Bill West, John Kuc, Roger Estep, Louie
Simmons, etc, etc.

No kidding you don't want to do that.

Quoted message said:

There is no sudden impact.

But there is certainly the potential.

That is what the safety supports on the power rack are for.

So you can do safe movements.

Any surprises or sudden moves are met with steel.

Not soft tissue.