BBC Breakfast TV - Helmets

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:03:35 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The BBC is the quintessential pinky "sheeple's" news
outlet.

Quoted message said:

Do you mind ? I'm the quintessential tomato (looks green,
but turns red when allowed to ripen) and I neither bleat,
nor own a TV.

BBC is also available via the wireless and the new-fangled
Interweb thingy.

Guy
--
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:17:53 +0100, Michael MacClancy
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

The report seemed to be trying to be balanced but it needed
someone with a better soundbite to balance the
Swampmonster's views.

We already have an excellent soundbyte which I think should
be used in every interview and response to the Beeb: there
is no known case where cyclist safety has improved with
increasing helmet use. The authority for this is road safety
minister David Jamieson.

Guy
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

Nathaniel Porter said:

The stat claimed on the report was 3000 cyclists killed
or injured. I

don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know how accurate this is.

I think it's about right - just don't inquire too closely
about how serious the injuries are (most are trivial) or
how many ar head injuries (under half, IIRC) or how many
of the head injury deaths and serious injuries could be
prevented by helmets (most optimistic plausible estimate
being about 10%).

Dunno, I'm not going to guess at the stats, but from
personal experience I believe that the majority of these
'injuries' will be trivial. I had a motorcycle accident
years ago where I was overtaking a car which decided to pull
out and overtake the car in front without looking or
indicating. I was so far forward that I could have reached
out and put his cigarette out for him as he started the
manoeuvre and when we finally made contact I ripped his
front bumper off. Anyway, I digress. The end result was, me
getting thrown over the handlebars and the bike ending up a
twisted mess in the ditch. Amazingly I was uninjured, having
rolled as I hit the ground. Later when being questioned by
the police, they kept returning again and again to the
question of any injuries I might have received. I assured
them several times that I was fine, but they kept asking if
I was cut anywhere. Eventually I looked down pulled up a
trouser leg and found a small graze where the skin had been
rubbed off and the bruised area underneath was just
'weeping' ever so slightly. The investigating copper looked
chuffed and ticked the relevant box. So down I went as an
accident statistic. I've never taken these accident
statistics seriously ever since.

--
Alex BMW R1150GS DIAABTCOD#3 MSWF#4 UKRMFBC#6 Ibw#35 BOB#8
team-ukrm.co.ukteam-ukrm.co.ukOpen ↗ Windy's "little soldier"

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:25:32 +0100, "Alex Ferrier"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I'm not going to guess at the stats, but from personal
experience I believe that the majority of these 'injuries'
will be trivial.

Well, it's a funny thing really. DfT KSI stats are collected
I believe by the pleece officers investigating a crash; thus
the definition of "serious" is open to interpretation. A cut
head which bleeds profusely may be logged as serious, while
a closed head wound which masks a potentially life-
threatening injury might not. But I compared the DoH
hospital admissions data with DfT stats and I believe that
DfT KSI stats are probably fairly close. Fatality is the
most accurate measure, followed by KSI. All injury stats are
no better than a guess,which is why few people use them
except for indicative purposes (being a large enough number
for statisticians to play with).

However...

As usual BeHIT are being mischievous. They want you to
believe that every one of those deaths and injuries would
have been prevented by a Magic Hat. The truth is, of course,
that few cyclists die, even fewer of head injuries alone,
many of the serious injuries will be to other parts of the
body, and in any case the cause of the problem is motor
traffic not failure to wear a PFDB.

Guy
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

As usual BeHIT are being mischievous. They want you to
believe that every one of those deaths and injuries would
have been prevented by a Magic Hat.

I've always thought they were used as Joe Public hears the
phrase as "*KILLED* <whisper> or seriously injured
</whisper>", or at least interprets it as such and BHIT are
well aware of this. So, many people will now think the huge
figure is for deaths.

Graeme

Just zis Guy said:

We already have an excellent soundbyte which I think
should be used in every interview and response to the
Beeb: there is no known case where cyclist safety has
improved with increasing helmet use. The authority for
this is road safety minister David Jamieson.

Yebbut nobody beleives government ministers these days

Tony

you know? said:

BBC is also available via the wireless and the new-fangled
Interweb thingy.

But it's the TV version that offers the worst of this
attitude. On Radio 4, You and Yours is an aberration. On TV,
it's the default.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:07:26 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On Radio 4, You and Yours is an aberration. On TV, it's
the default.

"Brassed Off Briatin - That's Life without the
intellectual rigour"
(c) Dead Ringers

Guy
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:01:23 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

nobody beleives government ministers these days

How true. What amazes me is that, according to the evidence,
people having become [censored] with the Labour Party's
duplicity are switching back to the Monster Raving Tory
Party, who gave us the Scott Report, sleaze and - well - an
almost indistinguishably different sort of duplicity. I
suppose a week is a long time in politics, and after nearly
a decade people have forgotten the unedifying spectacle of a
government trying to send innocent people to jail rather
than admit ministers lied to parliament.

My choice of candidate(s) in every election is strongly
influenced by which party is most likely to bring in a
change in the current scandalous voting system.

Although even if the MRTP did pledge to introduce PR I might
still be challenged to support them with Michael "Creature
of the Night" Howard at the helm.

Guy
--
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:01:23 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
family.com> wrote in message <2j2u3qFt576nU2@uni-
berlin.de>:

...the unedifying spectacle of a government trying to send
innocent people to jail rather than admit ministers lied
to parliament.

I would suggest this is insignificant compared to sending
thousands of innocent people to their deaths rather than
admit ministers lied to parliament....

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:44:21 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...the unedifying spectacle of a government trying to
send innocent people to jail rather than admit ministers
lied to parliament.

Quoted message said:

I would suggest this is insignificant compared to sending
thousands of innocent people to their deaths rather than
admit ministers lied to parliament....

The Falklands, you mean? Never looked into it that closely.

Guy
--
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

parts of the body, and in any case the cause of the
problem is motor traffic not failure to wear a PFDB.

I've injured myself twice on a bicycle, once where a helmet
did save me injury and the second where I ended up in a pile
of grass at a rather high speed.

In both cases, motor traffic was not a problem - I was
totally at fault.

Motor traffic contributes, but don't ever think people
aren't stupid enough to injure themselves all on their own.

Just zis Guy said:

The Falklands, you mean? Never looked into it that
closely.

Obviously

Tony

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:12:04 +0100, "dwb" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Motor traffic contributes, but don't ever think people
aren't stupid enough to injure themselves all on their own.

But, looking at the stats for children, 90% of the injuries
are due to road traffic, and 90% of child cycling is
offroad. All but one of the fatalities in 2003 were offroad
as well. And although road traffic accounts for only 10% of
all child injury admissions it makes up half of the
fatalities.

So, in as much as there is a single predominant problem,
motor traffic is it.

Guy
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote:

| On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:17:53 +0100, Michael MacClancy
| <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| <[email hidden]>:
|
| >The report seemed to be trying to be balanced but it
| >needed someone with a better soundbite to balance the
| >Swampmonster's views.
|
| We already have an excellent soundbyte which I think
| should be used in every interview and response to the
| Beeb: there is no known case where cyclist safety has
| improved with increasing helmet use. The authority for
| this is road safety minister David Jamieson.

Yep, a good'un, except it doesn't counter "it still might
help for me", that would take some risk compensation
research...

Another good line is "The most worrying statistic is from
Alberta, Canada where...". Any news on the progress of facts
from there?

--
Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK anweald.co.ukanweald.co.ukOpen ↗

Patrick Herring said:

"Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

| On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:17:53 +0100, Michael MacClancy
| <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| <[email hidden]>:
|
|>The report seemed to be trying to be balanced but it
|>needed someone with a better soundbite to balance the
|>Swampmonster's views.
|
| We already have an excellent soundbyte which I think
| should be used in every interview and response to the
| Beeb: there is no known case where cyclist safety has
| improved with increasing helmet use. The authority for
| this is road safety minister David Jamieson.

Yep, a good'un, except it doesn't counter "it still might
help for me", that would take some risk compensation
research...

Another good line is "The most worrying statistic is from
Alberta, Canada where...". Any news on the progress of
facts from there?

"Anyone who thinks that a bit of moulded polystyrene can
protect them from serious head injury ... needs to have
their head examined."
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "His mother should have
thrown him away and kept the stork." - Mae West
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:44:21 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...the unedifying spectacle of a government trying to
send innocent people to jail rather than admit
ministers lied to parliament.

Quoted message said:

I would suggest this is insignificant compared to sending
thousands of innocent people to their deaths rather than
admit ministers lied to parliament....

The Falklands, you mean? Never looked into it that
closely.

What was the lie to parliament w.r.t. the Falklands?

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:11:09 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ...the unedifying spectacle of a government trying to
> send innocent people to jail rather than admit
> ministers lied to parliament.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would suggest this is insignificant compared to
sending thousands of innocent people to their deaths
rather than admit ministers lied to parliament....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Falklands, you mean? Never looked into it that
closely.

Quoted message said:

What was the lie to parliament w.r.t. the Falklands?

Like I said, I didn't study it in that much detail. I can
only remember some creative interpretation of facts re
the General Belgrano, and being rather cagey about the
negotiations which had been underway on sovereignty of
the islands.

Since both Blue Labour and the MRTP were in favour of the
illegal invasion of Iraq, that was the only war I could
think of which would be relevant.

Guy
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

But, looking at the stats for children, 90% of the
injuries are due to road traffic, and 90% of child cycling
is offroad. All but one of the fatalities in 2003 were
offroad as well.

Misprint?

Quoted message said:

And although road traffic accounts for only 10% of all
child injury admissions it makes up half of the
fatalities.

So, in as much as there is a single predominant problem,
motor traffic is it.

Colin McKenzie

--
The great advantage of not trusting statistics is that it
leaves you free to believe the damned lies instead!

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:20:03 +0100, Colin McKenzie
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But, looking at the stats for children, 90% of the
injuries are due to road traffic, and 90% of child
cycling is offroad. All but one of the fatalities in 2003
were offroad as well.

Quoted message said:

Misprint?

Eh? Oh, I see. Yes, all but one were road transport. Ta.

Guy
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88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University