While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
"Dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
dale
Where's the cup? The cup side is the side where the retainer should be. AFAIK, all lower cone races are on the fork, facing up. The upper cone can either be on the fork or pressed in the headtube, facing down or up, respectively. Sorni, take it away!
While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
dale
5/32 balls up on top, 3/16 balls down on the bottom.
On Wed, 09 May 2007 05:38:07 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Headset has same size balls top and bottom. Are these 3/16 " or 5/32". Campy part HS-OR006. I can't google a size from the part number.
On Wed, 09 May 2007 05:38:07 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Headset has same size balls top and bottom. Are these 3/16 " or 5/32". Campy part HS-OR006. I can't google a size from the part number.
Thanks
That one from 1993/4 and 3/16 balls, both 'balls down'. HS changed in 1995 to the one mentioned.
"Dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway. Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
dale
Where's the cup? The cup side is the side where the retainer should be. AFAIK, all lower cone races are on the fork, facing up. The upper cone can either be on the fork or pressed in the headtube, facing down or up, respectively. Sorni, take it away!
Nah, too easy. (But enough about your sister...or mother...or girlfriend...)
"Dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
dale
Does anyone know the relative merits of having differing the upper half of the headset, retainer orientation on top or on bottom? Why is it that threaded headsets are often retainer-up, while all the threadless headsets I've seen are retainer down?
While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Phil said:
Where's the cup? The cup side is the side where the retainer should be. AFAIK, all lower cone races are on the fork, facing up. The upper cone can either be on the fork or pressed in the headtube, facing down or up, respectively. Sorni, take it away!
Phil's right about that. We simplify by directing consumers to assemble cup and cone dry in their fingers and note that each system only works with the retainer in one orientation; if reversed, the clip (not the balls) drags on the race and it's obviously, dramatically wrong. That will test other systems besides Campagnolo headsets as retainers are variously designed with clip in or clip out. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
i read why and forgot. its brandtian. the english did it one way then the tiwainese decided that didn't make any sense so they reversed one to hold the shaft firmerly. i have done this wrong 3 times and it drives me nuts. expletive deleted deleted the solution maybe if you see it. seems to be easy to see it then fail to see its logic 30 minutes later. that would be fingers into cup, open side fingers toward cup wall, solid retainer ring surface facing cone or is that wrong? the balls need containment by cone, cup, and retainer. if you leave one side open when assembled then the balls runout. HOWEVER! the retainer maybe a factory assembly rig avoiding a constant rain of loose balls and wasted down time. Its easy to cool your grease and bearings in the fridge-cycle grease is made for this-butterknife a ridge of grease on the cone or cup-then place the bearings into the grease ridge without a retainer. i feel a friction loss with retainers v free bearings about equal to the friction loss experienced from a well adjusted freewheel to a well adjusted freehub.
i read why and forgot. its brandtian. the english did it one way then the tiwainese decided that didn't make any sense so they reversed one to hold the shaft firmerly. i have done this wrong 3 times and it drives me nuts. expletive deleted deleted the solution maybe if you see it. seems to be easy to see it then fail to see its logic 30 minutes later. that would be fingers into cup, open side fingers toward cup wall, solid retainer ring surface facing cone or is that wrong? the balls need containment by cone, cup, and retainer. if you leave one side open when assembled then the balls runout. HOWEVER! the retainer maybe a factory assembly rig avoiding a constant rain of loose balls and wasted down time. Its easy to cool your grease and bearings in the fridge-cycle grease is made for this-butterknife a ridge of grease on the cone or cup-then place the bearings into the grease ridge without a retainer. i feel a friction loss with retainers v free bearings about equal to the friction loss experienced from a well adjusted freewheel to a well adjusted freehub.
Retainers were initially developed to run bearing systems with fewer balls. Modern full-count designs can have no downside in performance while greatly assisting in faster assembly time.
The designs have many small variants and there is no general rule about which way they 'face'. Assemble dry in your fingers, turn, flip retainer, turn again. A backward retainer feels obviously and dramatically wrong.
-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Retainers were initially developed to run bearing systems with fewer balls. Modern full-count designs can have no downside in performance while greatly assisting in faster assembly time.
Using fewer balls was mainly in low cost applications. I think your assessment of easier assembly is more to the point here. I'm thinking specifically Square-taper BB's with 11-1/4" balls in a cage. The balls are close packed and removing the cage does not change bearing ball space. Head bearings are a little different, having too many bearing balls anyway, they could have 21 but 20 is adequate and the cage makes it definitely easier to assemble.
Quoted message said:
The designs have many small variants and there is no general rule about which way they 'face'. Assemble dry in your fingers, turn, flip retainer, turn again. A backward retainer feels obviously and dramatically wrong.
The cage must be on the cup side. If you turn it over, the cone will not make contact with the bearing balls but rather with the cage. That is rough going for a bearing
While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older style, too, and someone placed them in wrong.
Quoted message said:
Does anyone know the relative merits of having differing the upper half of the headset, retainer orientation on top or on bottom? Why is it that threaded headsets are often retainer-up, while all the threadless headsets I've seen are retainer down?
Cups facing down, cones up, is convenient to make the bearings reasonably waterproof in that the cups are recessed in aluminum cup shaped housings facing down. That way hosing off the bicycle will not fill the bearings with water and dirt.
With that cup orientation carrying the bicycle upside down on a car roof rack or even right-side up with 70mph water blast on the interface will fill the bearings with water. If the bicycle is tilted down forward there is a chance of not filling the head bearings with water but the other bearings will eat water just the same.
Duh, yeh. There is no way you can put it together wrong...I tried it.
Great! Note that because each application has examples of inverse design ( Tange and Campagnolo headset retainers for example) any 'assembly direction rule' will confuse a home mechanic. A simple turn-dry-in-fingers test is clear and unambiguous! -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Does anyone know the relative merits of having differing the upper half of the headset, retainer orientation on top or on bottom? Why is it that threaded headsets are often retainer-up, while all the threadless headsets I've seen are retainer down?
Cups facing down, cones up, is convenient to make the bearings reasonably waterproof in that the cups are recessed in aluminum cup shaped housings facing down. That way hosing off the bicycle will not fill the bearings with water and dirt.
One of my bikes has a threaded headset with the bottom cup facing down and the top cup facing up. The top cone is on the inside of a shell that extends down around the outside of the top cup. When fully assembled, it looks like the cup-facing-down arrangement that you describe. It worked quite well until I used it for winter commuting without fenders.
