article on hyponatremia

Rick, you an idiot.

Ignoramus21798 said:

rick++ said:

NY Times has a caution article on the habit of some
runners to drink too much water.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/health/14water.html
A fair fraction of [ rare ] race deaths have been attributed
to this cause.

Thanks for a link to a great article. Some people are still ignorant
of the dangers of drnking too much water.

Some people, no just you, actually, are ignorant of the dangers of
drinking too little water.

Martha

rick++ wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

NY Times has a caution article on the habit of some
runners to drink too much water.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/health/14water.html
A fair fraction of [ rare ] race deaths have been attributed
to this cause.

Its my view that water drinking, like any other race habit
must be practiced consistently in advance to learn ones limits.
Its tempting in an organized race to overdrink because of
convenient water stations.

ITSS - it's the salts stupid. For mid-pack marathoners (4 hours+), lack of
salts will cause more problems than anything else. Most people aren't aware
that sports drink isn't enough. For shorter races drinking too much would
be a bigger problem.

-Tony

Ignoramus21798 said:

rick++ said:

NY Times has a caution article on the habit of some
runners to drink too much water.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/health/14water.html
A fair fraction of [ rare ] race deaths have been attributed
to this cause.

Thanks for a link to a great article. Some people are still ignorant
of the dangers of drnking too much water.

But I take some issue with Noakes' quote:

"Everyone becomes dehydrated when they race," Dr. Noakes said. "But I
have not found one death in an athlete from dehydration in a
competitive race in the whole history of running. Not one. Not even a
case of illness."

Not even illness? Really? I can beleive the stat about no deaths
reported from dehydration, but not even illness. Having encountered the
beast of dehydration (once was after a 15mile race), I know it's not a
zero occurance. Maybe it's just under reported. (I know I only knew the
beast hit me AFTER the race, on the way home.)

The article does not report what percentage had dehydration, reporting
only that "most were fine". Note the two things are very different.
Hyponatremia is low sodium level in blood. Dehydration is lowered water
level. I can conceive of a dehydrated runner that happens to have a
good sodium balance with the water reamining in his bloodstream.

Sorry, but I just don't care for statements in the absolute. And I hope
no one gets the impression from Noakes that not drinking is a good
idea.

Quoted message said:

i

Quoted message said:

Its my view that water drinking, like any other race habit
must be practiced consistently in advance to learn ones limits.
Its tempting in an organized race to overdrink because of
convenient water stations.

(No, hyponatremia is not the name for TBR/FR/AA's regular

manifestation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of PMS.)

--
Running Log: http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/exercise.txt

Yes, practice beforehand is best, if possible with the same drink used
at the race. (Powdered gaterade is different from bottled. many races
use powdered.)

The article does note that another guideline is to not stop at the
water stations to drink. So drinking on the run takes practice too.

Ed.

"Ignoramus21798" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 14 Apr 2005 12:03:44 -0700, Ed Prochak <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ignoramus21798 said:

On 14 Apr 2005 06:15:45 -0700, rick++ <[email hidden]> wrote:
> NY Times has a caution article on the habit of some
> runners to drink too much water.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/health/14water.html
> A fair fraction of [ rare ] race deaths have been attributed
> to this cause.

Thanks for a link to a great article. Some people are still ignorant
of the dangers of drnking too much water.

But I take some issue with Noakes' quote:

"Everyone becomes dehydrated when they race," Dr. Noakes said. "But I
have not found one death in an athlete from dehydration in a
competitive race in the whole history of running. Not one. Not even a
case of illness."

he said "no deaths" not "no illness". i imagine it's the same principle as
trying to kill yourself from suffocation by holding your breath. when
someone passes out in a road race they may be dehydrated but not so far gone
that they can't be re-hydrated by EMTs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not even illness? Really? I can beleive the stat about no deaths
reported from dehydration, but not even illness. Having encountered the
beast of dehydration (once was after a 15mile race), I know it's not a
zero occurance. Maybe it's just under reported. (I know I only knew the
beast hit me AFTER the race, on the way home.)

I agree that an absolute statement such as "no illness from
dehydration was reported in the whole history of running", to be
rather unbelievable. (which does not make it false)

Quoted message said:

The article does not report what percentage had dehydration, reporting
only that "most were fine". Note the two things are very different.
Hyponatremia is low sodium level in blood. Dehydration is lowered water
level. I can conceive of a dehydrated runner that happens to have a
good sodium balance with the water reamining in his bloodstream.

Sorry, but I just don't care for statements in the absolute. And I hope
no one gets the impression from Noakes that not drinking is a good
idea.

Well, Noakes suggests that drinking when thirsty is the right thing to
do, as opposed to drinking copious amounts that the promoters of
"hydration" are suggesting.

I agree with you that there are dumb people who are unable to
comrehend simple things, and they can misunderstand anything.

i

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i

> Its my view that water drinking, like any other race habit
> must be practiced consistently in advance to learn ones limits.
> Its tempting in an organized race to overdrink because of
> convenient water stations.
>
> (No, hyponatremia is not the name for TBR/FR/AA's regular

manifestation

Quoted message said:

> of PMS.)
>

Yes, practice beforehand is best, if possible with the same drink used
at the race. (Powdered gaterade is different from bottled. many races
use powdered.)

The article does note that another guideline is to not stop at the
water stations to drink. So drinking on the run takes practice too.

Ed.

--
Running Log: http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/exercise.txt

Ed Prochak said:

But I take some issue with Noakes' quote:

"Everyone becomes dehydrated when they race," Dr. Noakes said. "But I
have not found one death in an athlete from dehydration in a
competitive race in the whole history of running. Not one. Not even a
case of illness."

Not even illness? Really? I can beleive the stat about no deaths
reported from dehydration, but not even illness. Having encountered the
beast of dehydration (once was after a 15mile race), I know it's not a
zero occurance. Maybe it's just under reported. (I know I only knew the
beast hit me AFTER the race, on the way home.)

I agree. People may not recognize the symptoms of dehydration, let alone
hyponatremia. Also, dehydration contributes to other things like
hypothermia and altitude sickness, and that's what gets diagnosed.
Noakes does say "competitive" race - wonder if he's only considering a
relative handful of races in there. I'm assuming the quote is accurate,
but there could be a media issue here also unless it's in his book (I
didn't look).

If a person gets most of their training in hs (short distances), then
gets involved in longer distances without any formal training or reading
(that "invincible" age), would they even know to be aware of
dehydration, let alone hyponatremia? (I'm basing this on some local
observations, which may or may not be generally true elsewhere.)

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

http://tinyurl.com/3u8xm
is a surprisingly concise summary of some hydration / electrolyte issues
- obviously omitting details, but at least calling attention to some
things frequently omitted elsewhere.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

"Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ignoramus21798 said:

rick++ said:

NY Times has a caution article on the habit of some
runners to drink too much water.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/health/14water.html
A fair fraction of [ rare ] race deaths have been attributed
to this cause.

Thanks for a link to a great article. Some people are still ignorant
of the dangers of drnking too much water.

But I take some issue with Noakes' quote:

"Everyone becomes dehydrated when they race," Dr. Noakes said. "But I
have not found one death in an athlete from dehydration in a
competitive race in the whole history of running. Not one. Not even a
case of illness."

Not even illness? Really? I can beleive the stat about no deaths
reported from dehydration, but not even illness. Having encountered the
beast of dehydration (once was after a 15mile race), I know it's not a
zero occurance. Maybe it's just under reported. (I know I only knew the
beast hit me AFTER the race, on the way home.)

That quote struck me as odd as well. Jim Peters was pretty out of it
in 1954 at the Commonwealth Games.

Quoted message said:

The article does not report what percentage had dehydration, reporting
only that "most were fine". Note the two things are very different.
Hyponatremia is low sodium level in blood. Dehydration is lowered water
level. I can conceive of a dehydrated runner that happens to have a
good sodium balance with the water reamining in his bloodstream.

Sorry, but I just don't care for statements in the absolute. And I hope
no one gets the impression from Noakes that not drinking is a good
idea.

Quoted message said:

i

Quoted message said:

Its my view that water drinking, like any other race habit
must be practiced consistently in advance to learn ones limits.
Its tempting in an organized race to overdrink because of
convenient water stations.

(No, hyponatremia is not the name for TBR/FR/AA's regular

manifestation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of PMS.)

--
Running Log: http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/exercise.txt

Yes, practice beforehand is best, if possible with the same drink used
at the race. (Powdered gaterade is different from bottled. many races
use powdered.)

Actually a lot of races use a liquid concentrate. Add 1 gallon to ten
gallons of water (or something like that). Regardless, most races will
dilute the mix to stretch it out. This really potentially adds to the
problem of hyponatremia since there is now more water and a lower [Na+]

Quoted message said:

The article does note that another guideline is to not stop at the
water stations to drink. So drinking on the run takes practice too.

Ed.

Sam said:

That quote struck me as odd as well. Jim Peters was pretty out of it
in 1954 at the Commonwealth Games.

yeah but was that dehydration or heat exhaustion ? (for example the Swiss
athlete who staggered into the stadium in the 1984 womens marathon had heat
exhaustion)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tony said:

rick++ wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

NY Times has a caution article on the habit of some
runners to drink too much water.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/health/14water.html
A fair fraction of [ rare ] race deaths have been attributed
to this cause.

Its my view that water drinking, like any other race habit
must be practiced consistently in advance to learn ones limits.
Its tempting in an organized race to overdrink because of
convenient water stations.

ITSS - it's the salts stupid. For mid-pack marathoners (4 hours+), lack of
salts will cause more problems than anything else. Most people aren't aware
that sports drink isn't enough. For shorter races drinking too much would
be a bigger problem.

I thought so too, and asked an exercise physiologist friend. He said that
overdrinking is the problem, and that he'd never take salt in a marathon. He
also said that plasma sodium levels *increase* during exercise. You don't
"balance" overdrinking with salt capsules, you just don't overdrink in the
first place.

One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the people in the
article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained 10 pounds or more. They
were simply drinking way too much.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Ed Prochak said:

But I take some issue with Noakes' quote:

"Everyone becomes dehydrated when they race," Dr. Noakes said. "But I
have not found one death in an athlete from dehydration in a
competitive race in the whole history of running. Not one. Not even a
case of illness."

Noakes generally espouses a "drink less water" philosophy, and he pushes it
fairly agressively.

He does this partly by pointing to how little water elites drink, and partly
by emphasising (one might argue, overemphasising) the dangers of hyponatremia.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the people
in the article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained 10 pounds
or more. They were simply drinking way too much.

Which could either be caused by either too much fluid or too much fluid
without the right concentration of electolyes.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the people
in the article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained 10 pounds
or more. They were simply drinking way too much.

Which could either be caused by either too much fluid or too much fluid
without the right concentration of electolyes.

Sorry, don't understand the point you're making -- but the only way you can
gain weight while racing is by drinking too much fluid (regardless of
electrolyte concentration).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the
people in the article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained
10 pounds or more. They were simply drinking way too much.

Which could either be caused by either too much fluid or too much
fluid without the right concentration of electolyes.

Sorry, don't understand the point you're making -- but the only way
you can gain weight while racing is by drinking too much fluid
(regardless of electrolyte concentration).

I should have made that "could be caused be either too much fluid and/or
improper elecrolyte concentration," thereby causing the body to retain
fluid. I'm too lazy to read the entire thread, so I'm not sure to what
distances we are referring. In the ultra events runners are weighed at
various checkpoints and if their change in weight is too great, they are
often recommended to take more or less sodium.

--
Phil M.

Ignoramus20182 said:

Phil M. said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the people
in the article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained 10 pounds
or more. They were simply drinking way too much.

Which could either be caused by either too much fluid or too much fluid
without the right concentration of electolyes.

Because of the law of conservation of mass, the only cause of their
weight gain was drinking (and eating, if there was any). Weight could
not come from thin air.

True, but I'm talking about drinking water and not being able to eliminate
it in a timely manner due to improper sodium concentration.

--
Phil M.

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the people
in the article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained 10 pounds
or more. They were simply drinking way too much.

Which could either be caused by either too much fluid or too much fluid
without the right concentration of electolyes.

Sorry, don't understand the point you're making -- but the only way you can
gain weight while racing is by drinking too much fluid (regardless of
electrolyte concentration).

If they're drinking that much they can't be running very fast. Sounds like
the 5 hour + person who stops at every aid station and drinks 3 cups. They
never get going fast enough to sweat it out...

For those of us who do sweat profusely during summer exercise and are still
losing weight during our runs, the ultra solution of salt tabs really does
seem to work to aid absorption.

-Tony

Tony said:

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

>One thing you notice reading that article carefully is that the people
>in the article *gained* weight -- and in some cases, gained 10 pounds
>or more. They were simply drinking way too much.

Which could either be caused by either too much fluid or too much fluid
without the right concentration of electolyes.

Sorry, don't understand the point you're making -- but the only way you can
gain weight while racing is by drinking too much fluid (regardless of
electrolyte concentration).

If they're drinking that much they can't be running very fast. Sounds like
the 5 hour + person who stops at every aid station and drinks 3 cups. They
never get going fast enough to sweat it out...

For those of us who do sweat profusely during summer exercise and are still
losing weight during our runs, the ultra solution of salt tabs really does
seem to work to aid absorption.

-Tony

To add to your comments, people should read this 1st person account:
http://www.restonrunners.org/special/hyponatremia/michele_burr_hyponatremia.php

I couldn't find the 2002 VT100 results (blank page), but my recollection
was that she was one of the lead women, but I could be wrong - certainly
not a back of packer (or I might have stories twisted). (Doug may
remember) Granted, "fast" in a hot 100 is relative.

One thing overlooked in this thread is the incredible variation among
humans in same environmental conditions - sweat rate, sodium
concentration in sweat, ADH (anti-diuretic hormone), your normal diet
and its sodium content (not race intake, but daily food), etc - and this
changes within an individual with training and heat adaptation. So it's
an on-going learning process that frequently takes a while for people to
figure out.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

Dot said:

I couldn't find the 2002 VT100 results (blank page), but my recollection
was that she was one of the lead women, but I could be wrong - certainly
not a back of packer (or I might have stories twisted). (Doug may
remember) Granted, "fast" in a hot 100 is relative.

She finished 22nd overall, 3rd female. (found results on another page)

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Quoted message said:

If they're drinking that much they can't be running very fast. Sounds like
the 5 hour + person who stops at every aid station and drinks 3 cups. They
never get going fast enough to sweat it out...

For those of us who do sweat profusely during summer exercise and are still
losing weight during our runs, the ultra solution of salt tabs really does
seem to work to aid absorption.

-Tony

To add to your comments, people should read this 1st person account:
http://www.restonrunners.org/special/hyponatremia/michele_burr_hyponatremia.php

I couldn't find the 2002 VT100 results (blank page), but my recollection
was that she was one of the lead women, but I could be wrong - certainly
not a back of packer (or I might have stories twisted). (Doug may
remember) Granted, "fast" in a hot 100 is relative.

That's an *ultra*. She was certainly out there for more than 5 hours, much
like a slow marathoner ! It's also possible that she actually stopped at
water stations -- wouldn't be unheard of even for a competitive ultra runner
(again, like a slow marathoner). But even if she didn't stop, cumulative
errors over 18hrs or more could put you in the danger zone. I know a
competitive marathoner who gained 1.5lb in a race without stopping to walk,
fairly moderate intake. Of course she was fine, but repeat that error 6 times
over and you could have some trouble.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/