Arsewipe Armstrong confirms he's riding the Tour.

[IH8LANCE]

You are confussing fairness and laws.

Most of criminals are not in jail because the Justice was not able to catch them. That is unfair.

So we should assume all suspects are guilty even if we cannot prove it because some of them must be?

Professional cycling is a joke not because of the dopers -- it's because the organizers have given themselves the power to act arbitrarily when banning riders "suspected" to have doped. Drug tests, protocols, and burdens of proof exist for a reason -- to legitimize the sanctions of riders who cheat. But when you start penalizing suspects based on unsubstantiated positives, or worse -- mere hearsay and circumstance, you open the door to the worst sort of favoritism and back-room politics.

 

[RdBiker]

Basso doped, got caught, served his sentence and is now back. Armstrong has doped and gotten away with it, even though there is tons of circumstantial evidence against him.

Remember when Rasmussen was taken out of the tour? He hadn't actually been caught doping. He actually hadn't even officially broken any rules that could legally keep him from riding, yet he was told he's never be welcomed back to the tour, based only, at that time, on the circumstantial evidence against him.

How do you see Armstrongs situation as being different from Rasmussens?

Let me make a correction:
Basso said he had attempted to dope, served his sentence and is now back. SO actually he isn't one bit more honest than Armstrong

Rasmussen on the other hand was pulled out of the Tour by his team, not actually by the organisers. So it should be Astana who told Armstrong to piis off. I don't remember that Rasmussen is never to return to the Tour, but please, refresh my memory with a link.

 

[poulidor]

Once you start excluding riders that haven't been officially sanctioned then the whole system becomes and uncontrollable grey area.

David Millar. Drug cheat. Why can he ride?
Rasmussen?
Basso?
Floyd Landis?
Erik Zabel? Ok he's retired.
Tom Boonen?
Ale Jet?Di Luca?
The list of non sanctioned, semi sanctioned fully sanctioned cheaters is long.

When you move from firm rules to gut feel and emotion there is no way you can make consistent and repeatable decisions.

In your case though it seems to be just Armstrong...

Maybe my english post are not perfect but if you go back I am for exclude all riders who have no change his behaviour! I don't buy tales and of people.
Rasmussen, Basso, Landis,... and so can stay at home. Without a new and clear confession, without new acts they don't deserve an ivitation too.

 

[K'Ching]

Let me make a correction:
Basso said he had attempted to dope, served his sentence and is now back. SO actually he isn't one bit more honest than Armstrong

Basso was caught by the OP. The fact that he didn't admit to have doped doesn't change the fact that he served the sentence. He's not an honest man, but how many real confessions have we seen? I can only think of very few that seemed to be genuine.

I agree that he's no more honest but he did serve a two year ban which Armstrong hasn't, but should.

Armstrong riding is like OJ Simpsons not going to prison. If he had been sentenced to 20 years in prison, on the other hand, he would be a free man when he'd served that sentence.

Rasmussen on the other hand was pulled out of the Tour by his team, not actually by the organisers. So it should be Astana who told Armstrong to piis off. I don't remember that Rasmussen is never to return to the Tour, but please, refresh my memory with a link.

I know he was pulled out by his team. That doesn't change the things Prudhomme said. I couldn't find an article where he was quoted saying Rasmussen will never be allowed to ride the tour again, but I'm sure I've heard it. I found this article though, that has some interesting quotes:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/tour-shock-as-leader-dropped/2007/07/26/1185339115976.html

"We did all we could to get rid of him" after rasmussen was kicked out by his team, but before it was officially known that he had broken any rules.

"One cannot mock the Tour de France impunitively like those riders.'' Unless you've won the race 7 times already it seems.

 

[poulidor]

So we should assume all suspects are guilty even if we cannot prove it because some of them must be?

Professional cycling is a joke not because of the dopers -- it's because the organizers have given themselves the power to act arbitrarily when banning riders "suspected" to have doped. Drug tests, protocols, and burdens of proof exist for a reason -- to legitimize the sanctions of riders who cheat. But when you start penalizing suspects based on unsubstantiated positives, or worse -- mere hearsay and circumstance, you open the door to the worst sort of favoritism and back-room politics.

Of course... but we are not in that case. We are here because our federations is corrupted and filled by old dopers who prefer money than sport.
Only the idiots can not see the joke it has become.

And as we already say it, TDF is free to not invite Lance Armstrong. There is no rules against it. So why are you saying that I am against rules...

 

[save_ferris]

Winning Tour Is Not A Priority

"I've maintained that I never doped in my life. I fully co-operated with the independent investigation, the report was released, there's not anything else that I can do... other than keep repeating this and repeating this and repeating this, I'm sure I'll have to repeat it all year... I've made myself available, I did everything I could do. I sleep at night and, fortunately, we've suffered no ill effects from that."

 

[Eldron]

Let me make a correction:
Basso said he had attempted to dope, served his sentence and is now back. SO actually he isn't one bit more honest than Armstrong

Rasmussen on the other hand was pulled out of the Tour by his team, not actually by the organisers. So it should be Astana who told Armstrong to piis off. I don't remember that Rasmussen is never to return to the Tour, but please, refresh my memory with a link.

Agreed - Rasmussen was pulled by his team not the ASO.

That said - I'm all for him being able to ride in 2009 (hell I think he should have finished in 2008 - or been banned by someone official). My feeling on this is that WADA/UCI/Someone should have banned him for a while (pick a period) - the whole "you haven't been officially cited but we think you're guilty so you can't ride" **** needs to end...

Ban him or don't - the grey area is what causes half of cycling's problems. Make rules and enforce them consistenty - it aint so hard.

My feeling is a 2 year ban is a slap on the wrist - 5 years minimum.

Also - what happened to a 2 year ban PLUS another 2 years not being able to ride for a Pro Tour team? Basso seems to have slipped through that net rather easily...

 

[Eldron]

So we should assume all suspects are guilty even if we cannot prove it because some of them must be?

Professional cycling is a joke not because of the dopers -- it's because the organizers have given themselves the power to act arbitrarily when banning riders "suspected" to have doped. Drug tests, protocols, and burdens of proof exist for a reason -- to legitimize the sanctions of riders who cheat. But when you start penalizing suspects based on unsubstantiated positives, or worse -- mere hearsay and circumstance, you open the door to the worst sort of favoritism and back-room politics.

I agree 100%.

Poulidor - the ASO should not be allowed to invite whoever they want - the top 10/12/15? teams should be automatically invited plus a few that the ASO want - that way we see the best riders in the world riding AND the ASO get to feel powerful by choosing a few teams. Top 10 teams should be allowed to choose whatever riders they want (unless of course they have been officiallt sanctioned).

Ahh for the perfect world.....pity the UCI is half the problem

 

[DV1976]

I agree 100%.

Poulidor - the ASO should not be allowed to invite whoever they want - the top 10/12/15? teams should be automatically invited plus a few that the ASO want - that way we see the best riders in the world riding AND the ASO get to feel powerful by choosing a few teams. Top 10 teams should be allowed to choose whatever riders they want (unless of course they have been officiallt sanctioned).

Ahh for the perfect world.....pity the UCI is half the problem

I think that its ASO's prerogative to invite whoever they want to invite. Everyone is being judged in the court of public opinion anyway and if ASO overstep the line this will have adverse effects on them and the Tour. But the thing is that there is a very strong anti-LA sentiment, not just in France but over most of Europe. There is lots of circumstantial, and substantial, evidence against him plus he has been repeatedly rude about France and the French. It's only logical that he is unwelcome in the country as both a cyclist and a person. Coming back to whether ASO has the right to exclude riders, it's their party, they can do as they please. If we dont like it we can choose not to watch the race and then ASO will suffer the consequences but so far it seems to be working pretty well for them.
Regarding other riders like Basso and Landis they shouldnt be invited either at least not this year. Let them ride for one year see how they perform and how they conduct themselves and then we see.

 

[limerickman]

I agree 100%.

Poulidor - the ASO should not be allowed to invite whoever they want - the top 10/12/15? teams should be automatically invited plus a few that the ASO want - that way we see the best riders in the world riding AND the ASO get to feel powerful by choosing a few teams. Top 10 teams should be allowed to choose whatever riders they want (unless of course they have been officiallt sanctioned).

Ahh for the perfect world.....pity the UCI is half the problem

I disagree with your view about ASO.

The organisers of the TDF are entitled, in my view, to invite or not invite whoever they wish to race in their event.

If the ASO or any other race organiser has concerns about a team or a rider (s) on that team, then I think that they are quite entitled to not invite that team or rider (s).

 

[limerickman]

Lim,

After this year's TdF Cera fiasco there is no old versus new generation - cycling had and currently has a HUGE doping problem. Kohl, Leogrande, Shumacher, Beltran, Ricco, Piepoli were all busted THIS year and represent cycling from rising young stars right through to old dogs - Armstrong is no more or less guilty than any of these guys. Actually less guilty in the eyes of UCI/WADA/ASO etc because they actually haven't prosecuted him for anything.

Why prevent an innocent (strictly legally speaking only!) Armstrong from competing on the pretence that he will corrupt the youth? The youth are dirty through and given the busts this year can probably teach Armstrong a thing or two about modern EPO use....

Edit: scratch that last comment - if they're getting busted they should probably ask Lance for some tips

Fair comment, Eld.

I agree it would appear that the current generation too, have a problem judging by Ricco, Schumacher, Kohl.

I still don't think that the re-introduction of former dopers will help the situation though.

 

[Eldron]

I disagree with your view about ASO.

The organisers of the TDF are entitled, in my view, to invite or not invite whoever they wish to race in their event.

If the ASO or any other race organiser has concerns about a team or a rider (s) on that team, then I think that they are quite entitled to not invite that team or rider (s).

In principle I agree I just feel it leaves the door open for personal agendas and emotion based decisions.

It's rather hypocritical to allow David Millar to ride, Erik Zabel to ride, Riis to attend - hell even Eddie M has all but confirmed he doped and he's the patron on the race!

I don't but into the Lance hates France hype - sure he said some nsty things about the ASO, the french lab and questioned his safety but I'm of the opinion the media has creaed most of the hate...

Ah well - we'll all have our opinions and one thing we know for sure - never in the history of the Internet has anyone ever uttered the words "you're right!"

 

[limerickman]

In principle I agree I just feel it leaves the door open for personal agendas and emotion based decisions.

It's rather hypocritical to allow David Millar to ride, Erik Zabel to ride, Riis to attend - hell even Eddie M has all but confirmed he doped and he's the patron on the race!

I don't but into the Lance hates France hype - sure he said some nsty things about the ASO, the french lab and questioned his safety but I'm of the opinion the media has creaed most of the hate...

Ah well - we'll all have our opinions and one thing we know for sure - never in the history of the Internet has anyone ever uttered the words "you're right!"

In fairness to Riis - he did eventually admit his use of EPO.
And he offered to hand back the 1996 maillot jeune!

 

[poulidor]

I don't but into the Lance hates France hype - sure he said some nsty things about the ASO, the french lab and questioned his safety but I'm of the opinion the media has creaed most of the hate...

There is not hate created by media. Only Lance's behaviour and arrogance created it.
Don't you remember the Lance's challenge: Prove that I dope!

When he came back after his cancer he was questionned many times and softly about his miraculous improvement. Evrery reporter asked similar questions, and of course it was difficult to explain such progress so late in the career and during a such period. No serious reporters, especially those coming from outside cycling to meet the cancer survivor accepter the tales. Their questionnements became harder with stupid responses. And that, that was in 99 the year after festina.
In 2000 there were the corticoïd antidated TUE... and of course some difficult time for Lance with media who asked the good questions.
Then there is Ferrari's link with Lance, the USPS garbage,...
Every year one more link to doping with Lance.

Because it was just CYLING - just cycling and "sport" - Lance should have stayed calm and step down a bit but he prefered to try to tarnish everyone than to accept the mess he created by his lies.

Now we are tired of Lance and if he were on next TDF, we would make him difficult days. No violence but we would make everything "to promote" his case on TV and to force reporters to dig in Lance's story and myths!

Personnaly I hope there is a good weather for my local stages, I have some smelling gifts for Bruyneel.

With or without Lance, that would be an interesting TDF for different reasons.

 

[Leafer]

I agree 100%.

Poulidor - the ASO should not be allowed to invite whoever they want - the top 10/12/15? teams should be automatically invited plus a few that the ASO want - that way we see the best riders in the world riding AND the ASO get to feel powerful by choosing a few teams. Top 10 teams should be allowed to choose whatever riders they want (unless of course they have been officiallt sanctioned).

Ahh for the perfect world.....pity the UCI is half the problem

The Tour de France is wholly owned by ASO - of course they should have every right to decide who rides, and, more importantly, who doesn't. It's their pocketbook that's going to be affected, not yours.

 

[Geoff Vadar]

The Tour de France is wholly owned by ASO - of course they should have every right to decide who rides, and, more importantly, who doesn't. It's their pocketbook that's going to be affected, not yours.

 

[IH8LANCE]

The Tour de France is wholly owned by ASO - of course they should have every right to decide who rides, and, more importantly, who doesn't. It's their pocketbook that's going to be affected, not yours.

And this kind of "screw the competitors themselves, we'll decide who rides based on . . . whatever the hell we decide" -- is one of the reasons that professional cycling is viewed as a 2nd tier, provincial sport. From what I can tell, it seems fairly clear that many cycling fans are OK with that. They hate the thought of their quaint little pastime being run like a business rather than a club. As long as that mentality remains prevalent, the organizers will continue to eat away at the sport from the inside out, like a malignant tumor, playing favorites, acting arbitrarily, crucifying the stars of the sport based on rumor, innuendo, and circumstantial evidence -- and earning the scorn of the general public. Professional cycling is viewed as a farce by even its most ardent fans -- that says a mouthful.

 

[limerickman]

And this kind of "screw the competitors themselves, we'll decide who rides based on . . . whatever the hell we decide" -- is one of the reasons that professional cycling is viewed as a 2nd tier, provincial sport. .

You're generalising again.

Just because cycling is viewed as a second tier sport where you are, that doesn't mean that it is a second tier sport elsewhere.

Throughout Europe, despite the doping controversies, the sport has a huge following.

They hate the thought of their quaint little pastime being run like a business rather than a club. .

Quaint little pastime?

Have you ever attended a GT or major stage race?

the organizers will continue to eat away at the sport from the inside out, like a malignant tumor, playing favorites, acting arbitrarily, crucifying the stars of the sport based on rumor, innuendo, and circumstantial evidence -- and earning the scorn of the general public. Professional cycling is viewed as a farce by even its most ardent fans -- that says a mouthful.

The organisers ain't the problem, amigo.

 

[poulidor]

Run cycling as a sport first then maybe as a business. Don't do the reverse where cheaters are on top because it's good for money!

 

[IH8LANCE]

You're generalising again.

Just because cycling is viewed as a second tier sport where you are, that doesn't mean that it is a second tier sport elsewhere.

Throughout Europe, despite the doping controversies, the sport has a huge following.

Like I said, provincial -- as in big in Europe and not particularly big anywhere else. Road cycling is losing market share to other sports and even within the sport itself young riders are gravitating to other forms of cycling. When you consider the exponential growth of other sports worldwide during similar timeframes -- golf, automobile racing, and several team sports, why is it that professional cycling is still primarily a regional boy's club? Sure, inroads have been made in the US, Eastern Europe, and Down Under, but in comparison to other sports . . . no contest.

The organisers ain't the problem, amigo.

They facilitate the problem, mon ami.