The Armstrong Lie ( Official Trailer )

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by Fatcyclist


I am not sure "no one else has claimed" is accurate here. Maybe "they have not been able to award" might be better. Doping was systemic and trying to figure out who was the best or worst at doping and deriving the punishment based on that is fools errand.

It seems most are having trouble distinguishing between Lance the doper and Lance the jerk. I think if we were going to strip titles of tour winners for lying, bullying and being an all around jerk we would not have many tour winners left. I have not found many that I admire save Froome and Schleck in the modern era.

I think if we are relying on the conscience of super stars of each sport to govern the sport we are in real trouble. The point is that the sport did not have the tools or chose not to take action to regulate band substances. If that is the case then it is part of the sport and the sport is to be blamed not an individual.

I am okay with the ban for life but stripping the titles just screws the entire peloton in the telling them that for seven years the roll you played (doper or not) was meaningless since the entire race was being scratched. I know if I had to pull my leader up and down the Alps and Pyranees I would want the credit of knowing I was part of something. I don"t know that I could blame that feeling of being robbed of that on Lance Armstrong but could certainly blame that of the the UCI for pulling the titles...from everyone. It is like saying, those races never existed for the fans, sponsors, participants etc and that is bad for the sport and all of you wasted your time. People attend sporting events cause they want to be part of something greater than themselves.

I think truth is important above all and I doubt Lance will fully come to terms with what he did outside of doping but blowing up the tours for 7 years is just stupid. They have done this in other sports and the there was always regret in later years for responding with too much emotion.

you have quite a few concepts confused in your post. usada did not deliver there decision based upon churlish behaviour or if postal/disco/etc. doped better than anyone else, but on his refusal to co-operate with the investigation as his teammates mostly did and his refusal to face the charges. as for aso stripping his name of their records, that is their choice and, again, i doubt aso removed his name solely on his lack of character but more on the fact that he cheated his way to victory. how the other riders feel about it is something which i doubt you can pin down to one emotion or attitude and would have little sway as far as aso are concerned, i imagine. as for armstrong's actions when he felt he was beyond sanction and at the top of the tdf, that is something which damns him in the court of public opinion.

and it's a bit of a puzzler that you think truth important above all, yet cannot accept those seven years being vacated.

 

[Fatcyclist]

Originally Posted by slovakguy
you have quite a few concepts confused in your post. usada did not deliver there decision based upon churlish behaviour or if postal/disco/etc. doped better than anyone else, but on his refusal to co-operate with the investigation as his teammates mostly did and his refusal to face the charges. as for aso stripping his name of their records, that is their choice and, again, i doubt aso removed his name solely on his lack of character but more on the fact that he cheated his way to victory. how the other riders feel about it is something which i doubt you can pin down to one emotion or attitude and would have little sway as far as aso are concerned, i imagine. as for armstrong's actions when he felt he was beyond sanction and at the top of the tdf, that is something which damns him in the court of public opinion.

and it's a bit of a puzzler that you think truth important above all, yet cannot accept those seven years being vacated.

Doping was part of the sport cause they had no way to control it and should just leave it alone versus trying to clean it up 12 years later. Where does it stop, Patani in 98, Ulrich in 97, Riis in 96 all known dopers. Why stop at the cyclist, lets dig up every urine test out there and subject that to modern testing and strip Olympic medals, tiles, entire teams, etc.

It is clear they have an axe to grind and buck to pass. Cycling is not the only sport with a PED problem but they are the only ones stripping titles 12 years after the fact.

The expectation that some have that Armstrong, Ulrich, Pantani, etc should have walked from the sport instead of doped is paramount to Nancy Regans "just say no" campaign. Someone always brings up a guy that finished 138th in the tour and says "hey look that guy was clean" yep, and he was also 138th.

Accepting and not agreeing are two different things and truth is yet something else.

 

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by Fatcyclist


Doping was part of the sport cause they had no way to control it and should just leave it alone versus trying to clean it up 12 years later. Where does it stop, Patani in 98, Ulrich in 97, Riis in 96 all known dopers. Why stop at the cyclist, lets dig up every urine test out there and subject that to modern testing and strip Olympic medals, tiles, entire teams, etc.

It is clear they have an axe to grind and buck to pass. Cycling is not the only sport with a PED problem but they are the only ones stripping titles 12 years after the fact.

The expectation that some have that Armstrong, Ulrich, Pantani, etc should have walked from the sport instead of doped is paramount to Nancy Regans "just say no" campaign. Someone always brings up a guy that finished 138th in the tour and says "hey look that guy was clean" yep, and he was also 138th.

Accepting and not agreeing are two different things and truth is yet something else.

yes, doping has always been a problem with cycling. oddly enough, cycling authorities have sanctioned cheats with varying degrees of penalties since that first time. as for those you cite as dopers, i'd like to believe that the authorities would sanction them as well, but for a statute of limitations.

who, specifically, has an axe to grind (i imagine you mean usada or aso)? most around here think other sports to be involved in doping, and we tend to be in agreement that other sports should do more. as a fan of baseball, a plausible argument could be made that cycling has been too lenient with cheats, if i can cite the chicago black sox scandal as an example.

so now truth has nothing to do with agreeing and accepting? whether you agree with or accept the punishment handed out to armstrong or not matters little to the truth that armstrong cheated and has been punished. as one cycling official put it, armstrong is done and dusted.

 

[Fatcyclist]

Originally Posted by slovakguy
yes, doping has always been a problem with cycling. oddly enough, cycling authorities have sanctioned cheats with varying degrees of penalties since that first time. as for those you cite as dopers, i'd like to believe that the authorities would sanction them as well, but for a statute of limitations.

who, specifically, has an axe to grind (i imagine you mean usada or aso)? most around here think other sports to be involved in doping, and we tend to be in agreement that other sports should do more. as a fan of baseball, a plausible argument could be made that cycling has been too lenient with cheats, if i can cite the chicago black sox scandal as an example
so now truth has nothing to do with agreeing and accepting? whether you agree with or accept the punishment handed out to armstrong or not matters little to the truth that armstrong cheated and has been punished. as one cycling official put it, armstrong is done and dusted.

Its like having a speed limit of 55mph but there are no radar guns and then finding out that everyone is speeding (there 's a shocker). Now you are able to historically prove who was speeding and how much so you start handing out huge ticket sums to people and then pointing to one guy that sped the most and say we are taking your car and anything you did while you had that car no longer counts. Is the guy the problem or was it a law that was made that could not be enforced.

In NASCAR they regulated the size of the gas tank to even the playing field so the teams made the gas lines fatter and longer. People are always going to try and gain an advantage.

No really blaming USADA, ASO or public...this is just philosophical point of view.

 

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by Fatcyclist


Its like having a speed limit of 55mph but there are no radar guns and then finding out that everyone is speeding (there 's a shocker). Now you are able to historically prove who was speeding and how much so you start handing out huge ticket sums to people and then pointing to one guy that sped the most and say we are taking your car and anything you did while you had that car no longer counts. Is the guy the problem or was it a law that was made that could not be enforced.

In NASCAR they regulated the size of the gas tank to even the playing field so the teams made the gas lines fatter and longer. People are always going to try and gain an advantage.

No really blaming USADA, ASO or public...this is just philosophical point of view.

not to quibble too greatly, but the men you defend chose to participate in the sport. in doing so, they agreed to participate under the rules stated by their various national governing bodies all of which were accepting rules as laid down by the uci which, in turn, complied with the ioc and wada. the terms of this agreement are nicely laid out on the back of the racing license (as a us masters champion found out at his hearing). in accepting the license, the rider accepts the terms under which competition is to be conducted. armstrong, entirely personally responsible for familiarity with these rules and penalties, chose to cheat. he was found out and was given the penalties due to him. to amplify the point, nascar has handed out many penalties after races when they have discovered cheating. the point about gas lines is specious. unless nascar specifically regulates the diameter and length of the gas line, then it is open to variance. doping within the cycling races, particularly during armstrong's term, was and is not. it was and is against the rules.

and while i reject your speeding example as justification, the point is that we as a society accept the concept of selective enforcement. the point there is that if you choose to drive faster than the posted speed limit, you should accept the consequences for your choice, if you are caught. i'm sure that you learned even in grade school that just because johnny is doing something does not justify your doing it. and just because you are being punished for it does not mean that johnny will be punished for it. does it suck that some get away with it and others don't? yes, but that's life.

 

[Peter Davies]

Hi I'm a student at Southampton Solent University looking into doping in cycling for my Sports Journalism Dissertation.

If you have minute, can you please take my Survey!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QWNYQKL

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by Peter Davies
Hi I'm a student at Southampton Solent University looking into doping in cycling for my Sports Journalism Dissertation.

If you have minute, can you please take my Survey!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QWNYQKL

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