apollo bottom bracket and chainset repairs

In message <[email hidden]>

raisethe said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

Surely a life of only 600 miles is "not fit for purpose" and I would
seek advice on a claim.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.

raisethe said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

That would be extraordinarily quick even for non branded components [1].
What exactly is wrong with both components? Did the BB ever get
submerged in water?

[1] To further on my reply to you in the thread about Shimano product
ranges: it sounds like your Apollo is equipped with one or a few branded
components like a rear derailer mixed with non brand components (like
the BB and crankset). This is common practice on cheap bikes (it doesn't
automatically mean that the non branded stuff is [censored]). My cheap
Halfords bike for example has SRAM GripShifters and a Shimano Tourney
rear derailer, but all other components are non branded (all components
are working fine for me).

If the smaller chainring is actually worn (not damaged), then as Charles
says you should investigate if you can claim "unfit for purpose".

--
Membrane

in message <[email hidden]>,

raisethe (') said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

Normally, I would consider such a [censored] piece of equipment, as this bso
is, to be fit only for the tip. However, shod with studded tyres, it
is convenient for the c.200 miles I do in winter when the snow is
down. It saves swapping tyres back and forth on my regular mount as
weather conditions continually change. Round here it snows
sporadically between October and April.

With the BB taken apart, I was wondering is there a sealed cartridge
type BB available that I could easily fit to my Apollo? I would like a
'fit and forget' option if possible.

There are only two bottom bracket shell lengths in common use, only one
diameter, and although there are several different threadings all but one
are /exceedingly/ uncommon. So yes, you can certainly get a cartridge
bottom bracket that will fit your frame.

So you need to measure the width of your bottom bracket shell (from side to
side of the bike - the length of the tube, not its diameter). It should be
either 68mm (road bikes, typically, usually used with 130mm OLN rear
axles) or 73mm (mountain bikes, typically, usually used with 135mm OLN
rear axles).

Having done that, you need to look at how the bottom bracket and the
crankset fit together. The most common system is 'square taper', but
unfortunately there are a number of different square taper standards, and,
even for the same axle length, where the cranks actually sit on the taper
can vary. Having said that I'd expect a cheap Apollo to be compatible with
a Shimano square taper, so the first thing I'd try is a Shimano (or
compatible) square taper BB with the same shell width as the bike and the
same axle length as the one you removed (but see below).

Quoted message said:

Secondly, the wee chainring (the one which is worn) appears to be
permanently attached to the other rings and the crank, so I suppose I
must replace the whole lot. Is it possible to replace it with parts
that can be replaced individually?

If you're also changing the chainset selection of a bottom bracket is
easy - you just get one to match the chainset.

Yes, most quality chainsets are modular and the rings bolt to the cranks.
You seem to be using an MTB setup, so suitable parts would be:

Shimano M442 Mega9 Tapered (44/32/22)
FSA Dyna Drive Tapered (44/32/22)

If your chainset is so worn it needs replacing I would /strongly/ recommend
changing the chain and the cassette at the same time. I know that
increases the cost of the exercise...

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other components
not showing signs of wear?

I would very strongly recommend it. Otherwise you are very likely to
quickly trash the new chainset as well.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Usenet: like distance learning without the learning.

raisethe said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

Taking into account the other two posts about 600 miles being excessively
short mileage for such wear to occur.

Quoted message said:

With the BB taken apart, I was wondering is there a sealed cartridge
type BB available that I could easily fit to my Apollo? I would like a
'fit and forget' option if possible.

Measure the width of the shell of the bottom bracket. I would expect it to
be the standard "British thread, 68mm wide". Next measure the BB axle
length, it will be around 125mm. Pick a suitable Shimano cartridge
(UN52/UN72), the length being the most important. However, if changing the
chainset, you need to check the length of the axle with respect to that
chainset.

Quoted message said:

Secondly, the wee chainring (the one which is worn) appears to be
permanently attached to the other rings and the crank, so I suppose I
must replace the whole lot. Is it possible to replace it with parts
that can be replaced individually?

Assuming its rivetted together, you may be able to drill the rivets out, and
replace with bolts (and spacers salvaged from the rivets).

(And, by "worn", you are not mistaking wear for the bits various makers
grind out of the teeth to make gear shifting a bit smoother ? Some chainsets
look like a dogs-breakfast when brand-new due to these various
adjustments ).

Quoted message said:

Can anyone suggest a
suitable part
to replace the current one?

TA make most sizes, Stronglite make some sizes, you need to calculate the
pitch-circle diameter for the mounting holes. Assuming TA make one, get a
steel one; they are cheaper. Spa Cycles in Harrogate if you don't have a
local source.

Quoted message said:

Given the nature of the bike, I don't
think highest quality would be appropriate, but it would be nice to
have something that would last for thousands rather than hundreds of
miles. I would ideally like a very small chainring, 22 or 24 teeth if
possible. Presumably my shifters would cope with this? The current
(oe) small ring has 28 teeth.

Chances are its a 28/38/48, 5 bolt (rivet) fixing, on 74mm PCD for the
inner ring. Smallest possible size is 24 teeth. I can't guarantee it, but
would expect 24-38-48 to work.
You may find it cheaper/easier to get a cheap MTB crankset (22-32-42 or
22-32-44), and slide the front shifter down the seatpost a little to engage
with it.

Alternatively, if only changing ratios, it may be cheaper to swap the rear
sprockets for a wide-ratio set (so called Mega-Range). Depends if rear wheel
has cassette or screw-on hub.

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other components
not showing signs of wear?

Why are you changing the sprocket ?
If it's the wrong ratio, then the wear should not be significant. If its
because the sprocket is worn, then the other bits are also going to be shot
(and I'd be back at the shop demanding that they replace it free of
charge!).

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

raisethe said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

Are you sure? Does the chain skip on it?

/snip

Quoted message said:

With the BB taken apart, I was wondering is there a sealed cartridge
type BB available that I could easily fit to my Apollo? I would like a
'fit and forget' option if possible.

Look into Shimano UN52/72/73.

/snip

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other components
not showing signs of wear?

I would not replace the chain if it was not too worn. That is if what is
supposed to be 12 inches (under load) hasn't elongated to 12 1/16" or 12
1/8" (depending on how conservative you want to be). Measure from pin to
pin, and see www.sheldonbrown.com

The cassette only needs changing if a new chain doesn't work with it.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Surely a life of only 600 miles is "not fit for purpose" and I would

seek advice on a claim.

I've had the bike for over a year, so would probably struggle. In any
case, I want to upgrade the components.

Agreed though, this 'bike' was definitely not fit for purpose. I've
rarely managed 30 miles on it without a repair or adjustment being
required. I took it back after the front wheel was buckled before I
even tried to ride it. Since then I've had several buckled wheels,
dissolved brake pads, seized brakes etc. My policy is to replace the
crappy bits with reasonable stuff as it becomes necessary. By the time
I've replaced all of the movable bits, I could buy a nice frame and
swap the bits over.

Membrane said:

raisethe said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

That would be extraordinarily quick even for non branded components [1].
What exactly is wrong with both components? Did the BB ever get
submerged in water?

I am getting a worsening creaking noise, and tried several other
things to fix it before stripping the BB. After removing the cranks,
the BB didn't turn too smoothly when rotated by hand.

One of the cages seemed fine, a trace of grease and the balls spinning
fine. The other one was dry, traces of rust and the balls were hard to
turn. I presume this has caused the creaking. The BB has been
subjected to all manner of winter filth - salty and snowy roads, and I
presume that the seal is not adequate on one side to keep this filth
out.

The smallest chainring has hooked teeth, standard sprocket wear.

Quoted message said:

[1] To further on my reply to you in the thread about Shimano product
ranges: it sounds like your Apollo is equipped with one or a few branded
components like a rear derailer mixed with non brand components (like
the BB and crankset). This is common practice on cheap bikes (it doesn't
automatically mean that the non branded stuff is [censored]). My cheap
Halfords bike for example has SRAM GripShifters and a Shimano Tourney
rear derailer, but all other components are non branded (all components
are working fine for me).

Yes, thats pretty much it. I too have some Tourney stuff and that has
all been trouble free so far. The shifters have also been fine.
However, it is the unbranded bits that have caused me problems, mainly
the wheels and brakes, but now the BB and chainrings, and I am
replacing them bit by bit.

On 19 Oct, 08:40, "Nigel Cliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Nigel

Many thanks for the detailed response. I have just spent a couple of
hours following your recommendations.

Quoted message said:

Measure the width of the shell of the bottom bracket. I would expect it to
be the standard "British thread, 68mm wide".

Yes it is.

Next measure the BB axle

Quoted message said:

length, it will be around 125mm. Pick a suitable Shimano cartridge
(UN52/UN72), the length being the most important.

It is 122mm. The standard size for Shimano cartridges seems to be
122.5mm. I presume the difference is not worth worrying about?

However, if changing the

Quoted message said:

chainset, you need to check the length of the axle with respect to that
chainset.

Noted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Secondly, the wee chainring (the one which is worn) appears to be
permanently attached to the other rings and the crank, so I suppose I
must replace the whole lot. Is it possible to replace it with parts
that can be replaced individually?

Assuming its rivetted together, you may be able to drill the rivets out, and
replace with bolts (and spacers salvaged from the rivets).

I tried to do this, but without success. It seems that the central
part of the small ring is welded to the middle ring. I tried drilling
and grinding, but it looks like a new triple will be necessary.

Quoted message said:

(And, by "worn", you are not mistaking wear for the bits various makers
grind out of the teeth to make gear shifting a bit smoother ? Some chainsets
look like a dogs-breakfast when brand-new due to these various
adjustments ).

I'm not, but I know what you mean. When I purchased a Shimano
Megarange I thought it was really poorly manufactured. It was some
time before I realised that it was supposed to look like that!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Given the nature of the bike, I don't

think highest quality would be appropriate, but it would be nice to
have something that would last for thousands rather than hundreds of
miles. I would ideally like a very small chainring, 22 or 24 teeth if
possible. Presumably my shifters would cope with this? The current
(oe) small ring has 28 teeth.

Chances are its a 28/38/48, 5 bolt (rivet) fixing, on 74mm PCD for the
inner ring.

Exactly as you say, except it has a 4 rivet fixing.

Quoted message said:

You may find it cheaper/easier to get a cheap MTB crankset (22-32-42 or
22-32-44), and slide the front shifter down the seatpost a little to engage
with it.

This will be the way to go I think.

Quoted message said:

Alternatively, if only changing ratios, it may be cheaper to swap the rear
sprockets for a wide-ratio set (so called Mega-Range). Depends if rear wheel
has cassette or screw-on hub.

I have the mega-range already. The 34 tooth rear is very handy, but I
find the jump to 24 for the 2nd biggest sprocket to be too great. One
or even two intermediate gears would be preferable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other components
not showing signs of wear?

Why are you changing the sprocket ?
If it's the wrong ratio, then the wear should not be significant. If its
because the sprocket is worn, then the other bits are also going to be shot
(and I'd be back at the shop demanding that they replace it free of
charge!).

This bike is a load of rubbish, but I don't think it is really worth
the bother of replacing [censored] components with more [censored] ones, even if I
won't have to pay for them. The amounts of money involved are trivial,
and I have had several more serious claims to deal with in the last
few years. It is a matter of not having the time or energy to pursue
the claim. Nevertheless, I do not think that this bike is of
merchantable quality and I'm surprised that given the current paranoia
over h&s, a bike with such unreliable and potentially dangerous brakes
is allowed to be sold.

Nigel Cliffe said:

.
You may find it cheaper/easier to get a cheap MTB crankset (22-32-42 or
22-32-44), and slide the front shifter down the seatpost a little to engage
with it.

Does this one look compatible?

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Shimano-Shimano-Alivio-M410-Square-Taper-Chainset-42--32--22T-175mm-Silver-15096.htm

Thanks
Ray

Simon Brooke said:

.
You seem to be using an MTB setup, so suitable parts would be:

Shimano M442 Mega9 Tapered (44/32/22)
FSA Dyna Drive Tapered (44/32/22)

Do you have a link for these? Noner of my regular suppliers seem to
stock them.

Quoted message said:

If your chainset is so worn it needs replacing I would /strongly/ recommend
changing the chain and the cassette at the same time. I know that
increases the cost of the exercise...

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other components
not showing signs of wear?

I would very strongly recommend it. Otherwise you are very likely to
quickly trash the new chainset as well.

Groan. Okay, noted.

I currently have a 7 speed freewheel with a megarange that jumps from
a penultimate sprocket of 24 teeth to 34 on the last. Is there a set
of sprockets available which has a more sensible transition but still
has at least 30t on the largest sprocket? Most suppliers do not quote
the size of the second largest sprocket.

Many thanks
Ray

Pete Biggs said:

raisethe said:

After 600 miles my Halfrauds Apollo BB needs servicing and the
smallest front chainring requires replacing.

Are you sure? Does the chain skip on it?

No, but the teeth are clearly worn in the same way that my motorbike
sprockets wear.

Quoted message said:

/

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other components
not showing signs of wear?

I would not replace the chain if it was not too worn. That is if what is
supposed to be 12 inches (under load) hasn't elongated to 12 1/16" or 12
1/8" (depending on how conservative you want to be). Measure from pin to
pin, and seewww.sheldonbrown.com

The cassette only needs changing if a new chain doesn't work with it.

The chain is 12" exactly and the freewheel shows no sign of wear. I
note your advice here is different to Simon's. If I replace the
freewheel and chain it will roughly increase the cost by 50%. Would
you see this as an unnecessary extra cost or is it a judgement call?

Cheers
Ray

raisethe said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? Does the chain skip on it?

No, but the teeth are clearly worn in the same way that my motorbike
sprockets wear.

a) Modern bicycle chainring teeth look funny to begin with, so maybe
they're not quite as worn as you suspect.

b) A worn chainring doesn't /have/ to be replaced until it's so worn that
chain starts to misbehave on it. (The bad behaviour always begins in a mild
non-dangerous way, in my experience, like an occasional slight skip). It
might be ideal to change it before that point, but I wouldn't bother on this
sort of bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, I have read that when changing the chainrings it is also
necessary to repace the chain and rear sprockets. Is that really
necessary in this case, after only 600 miles and the other
components not showing signs of wear?

I would not replace the chain if it was not too worn. That is if
what is supposed to be 12 inches (under load) hasn't elongated to 12
1/16" or 12 1/8" (depending on how conservative you want to be).
Measure from pin to pin, and seewww.sheldonbrown.com

The cassette only needs changing if a new chain doesn't work with it.

The chain is 12" exactly and the freewheel shows no sign of wear. I
note your advice here is different to Simon's. If I replace the
freewheel and chain it will roughly increase the cost by 50%. Would
you see this as an unnecessary extra cost or is it a judgement call?

If the chain isn't worn then it's totally unnecessary to change it (or the
cassette). Actually it must be slightly worn by now, but if it's not enough
to measure, it's not enough to worry about.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>,

raisethe (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

.
You seem to be using an MTB setup, so suitable parts would be:

Shimano M442 Mega9 Tapered (44/32/22)
FSA Dyna Drive Tapered (44/32/22)

Do you have a link for these? Noner of my regular suppliers seem to
stock them.

Wiggle do 'em:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdID=5360029483
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdID=5360031735

For my money it would be the FSA - the spider is cast in one piece with the
crank and in my experience that usually makes for a stiffer chainset.

I note that they've also got this:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdID=5360021264

I don't know whether it's bolted or rivetted, but it's a good price.

Edinburgh Bicycle Co-op will sell you a Suntour CWXCM Chainset (44/32/22, 7
or 8 speed only, steel rings) for only £18.95

Quoted message said:

I currently have a 7 speed freewheel with a megarange that jumps from
a penultimate sprocket of 24 teeth to 34 on the last. Is there a set
of sprockets available which has a more sensible transition but still
has at least 30t on the largest sprocket? Most suppliers do not quote
the size of the second largest sprocket.

Mountain bike cassettes do the same sort of range in more even steps -
Shimano HG50 is 8 speed, 11-32 teeth. If your rear wheel is
the 'freewheel' type (ratchet mechanism is part of the cog assembly)
rather than the more modern 'freehub' (ratchet is part of the hub) you're
going to have more difficulty but it shouldn't be impossible.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase

raisethe said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

.
You may find it cheaper/easier to get a cheap MTB crankset (22-32-42
or 22-32-44), and slide the front shifter down the seatpost a little
to engage with it.

Does this one look compatible?

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Shimano-Shimano-Alivio-M410-Square-Taper-Chainset-42--32--22T-175mm-Silver-15096.htm

Without checking your bike, I think it would be OK. A tad expensive at £30.
For example, Chain Reaction do a similar FSA model for £25. I am sure
others will be around as well.

Your other comment on Bottom Bracket lengths, yes, 0.5mm is neither here nor
there.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Nigel Cliffe said:

raisethe said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

.
You may find it cheaper/easier to get a cheap MTB crankset (22-32-42
or 22-32-44), and slide the front shifter down the seatpost a little
to engage with it.

Quoted message said:

Does this one look compatible?

Quoted message said:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Shimano-Shimano-Alivio-M410-Square...

Without checking your bike, I think it would be OK. A tad expensive at £30.
For example, Chain Reaction do a similar FSA model for £25. I am sure
others will be around as well.

Your other comment on Bottom Bracket lengths, yes, 0.5mm is neither here nor
there.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

Thanks Nigel, I'll report back when I've bought and assembled the bits.

Am Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:52:01 +0100 schrieb Simon Brooke:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

raisethe (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

.
You seem to be using an MTB setup, so suitable parts would be:

Shimano M442 Mega9 Tapered (44/32/22)
FSA Dyna Drive Tapered (44/32/22)

Do you have a link for these? Noner of my regular suppliers seem to
stock them.

Wiggle do 'em:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdID=5360029483
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdID=5360031735

For my money it would be the FSA - the spider is cast in one piece with the
crank and in my experience that usually makes for a stiffer chainset.

I note that they've also got this:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdID=5360021264

That's the one I bought last week from wiggle. So far it runs good, but
still a bit 'edgy'. I'll give it a 100 miles or so until it all runs
smooth. Yet it's an 48-38-28 size, so a bit bigger than the usual
mountainbike chainsets. The Deore LX front derailleur that I intended to
install was touching the middle chainring when shifting. So I kept the old
1995 LX front derailleur which still work fine...

Quoted message said:

I don't know whether it's bolted or rivetted, but it's a good price.

It is bolted. So in theory you could change one of the chainrings. I
intended to do that with my old chainset. But I found it quite difficult to
find separate chainrings and much easier to change the whole chainset.

A

raisethe said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

Quoted message said:

--

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

Thanks Nigel, I'll report back when I've bought and assembled the bits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I purchase the Alivio chainset 22/32/44 with the appropriate BB un54,
110mm long. These were easy to install but I have had a nightmare
trying to get the gear selection to work. After much fiddling I have
got the front rings to select reasonably, though 2nd maybe dicey, but
I cannot engage the first two gears of the freewheel. I have shortened
the chain by two links, as the previous chasinset was 28/38/48 to take
out some slack. The new bb is 12mm shorter than the old. Otherwise,
everything is the same.

Why can I not get the lowest two gears? Is there anything I can try to
get them to work? Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Thanks

raisethe said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

Quoted message said:

--

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

Thanks Nigel, I'll report back when I've bought and assembled the bits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I purchase the Alivio chainset 22/32/44 with the appropriate BB un54,
110mm long. These were easy to install but I have had a nightmare
trying to get the gear selection to work. After much fiddling I have
got the front rings to select reasonably, though 2nd maybe dicey, but
I cannot engage the first two gears of the freewheel. I have shortened
the chain by two links, as the previous chasinset was 28/38/48 to take
out some slack. The new bb is 12mm shorter than the old. Otherwise,
everything is the same.

Why can I not get the lowest two gears? Is there anything I can try to
get them to work? Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Thanks

raisethe said:

I purchase the Alivio chainset 22/32/44 with the appropriate BB un54,
110mm long. These were easy to install but I have had a nightmare
trying to get the gear selection to work. After much fiddling I have
got the front rings to select reasonably, though 2nd maybe dicey, but
I cannot engage the first two gears of the freewheel. I have shortened
the chain by two links, as the previous chasinset was 28/38/48 to take
out some slack. The new bb is 12mm shorter than the old. Otherwise,
everything is the same.

Why can I not get the lowest two gears? Is there anything I can try to
get them to work? Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

I don't know what to suggest without knowing a bit more.....

What happens when you /try/ to shift?

Did you do anything to the rear gear cable?

~PB