Alcohol stoves

"Crash Test" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I have to confess to always having always used a gas stove
in the field before now, but curiousity had been sparked
and the US style pepsi can stove
(pcthiker.compepsistove.shtmlOpen ↗) got
built. Frankly, I should have gotten a blue peter badge!

5 URW points awarded.

Quoted message said:

However, there are perhaps more efficient alchol stoves
about, such as (brasslite.combrasslite.comOpen ↗).

Many designs about. Build them all and report back.

Quoted message said:

On the face of it, they're quite interesting beasts -
silent, very light, you can carry only the fuel you need,
and they're eco friendly.

Add amazingly cheap and replaceable, and you can sniff the
fuel even if you can't drink it. And a fuel spill in your
pack or tent is survivable.

Some places the fuel is easily available and very cheap too.
Example: in Switzerland you can find alcohol in most
supermarkets and it costs the equivalent of about GBP 1.20
for a litre.

Quoted message said:

On the downside, the fuel is not as efficient (and you
therefore need more of it), they are slower, and as i
understand it, the stoves are not great in winds or
extreme cold (?).

Lightweight and extreme cold are not ideas that go
well together.

Quoted message said:

For those who have had a crack at it in the field as it
were - what have you made of them? Worth a play? Or is it
a romantic relic of a bygone age..(!)

For lightweight 2-season travel it's the wave of the future.
--
Mark South - Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!

Mark South said:

"Crash Test" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I have to confess to always having always used a gas
stove in the field before now, but curiousity had been
sparked and the US style pepsi can stove
(pcthiker.compepsistove.shtmlOpen ↗) got
built. Frankly, I should have gotten a blue peter badge!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Many designs about. Build them all and report back.

a la Lard; "No Neeeed"

hikinghq.netstove compare.htmlOpen ↗

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
thenmc.org.ukindex.phpOpen ↗

NMC website: thenmc.org.ukthenmc.org.ukOpen ↗

"Crash Test" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone had had much experience with
alcohol stoves?

I have to confess to always having always used a gas stove
in the field before now, but curiousity had been sparked
and the US style pepsi can stove
(pcthiker.compepsistove.shtmlOpen ↗) got
built. Frankly, I should have gotten a blue peter badge!

However, there are perhaps more efficient alchol stoves
about, such as (brasslite.combrasslite.comOpen ↗).

On the face of it, they're quite interesting beasts -
silent, very light, you can carry only the fuel you need,
and they're eco friendly. On the downside, the fuel is not
as efficient (and you therefore need more of it), they are
slower, and as i understand it, the stoves are not great
in winds or extreme cold (?).

For those who have had a crack at it in the field as it
were - what have you made of them? Worth a play? Or is it
a romantic relic of a bygone age..(!)

Trangia stoves use alcohol. Not the quickest boil, not the
lightest, not the most fuel efficient, but very very rugged
and reliable - and works better the windier it gets.

Ken said:

Trangia stoves use alcohol. Not the quickest boil, not the
lightest, not the most fuel efficient, but very very rugged
and reliable

Would this translate as "not the best"?

(not a troll/deliberately obtuse question, just in reading
the above I was drawn to that conclusion, but since I'm not
a Trangia user I can't offer a definitive comment, but am
curious about the answer)

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
thenmc.org.ukindex.phpOpen ↗

NMC website: thenmc.org.ukthenmc.org.ukOpen ↗

(Crash Test) said:

Hey all, I was wondering if anyone had had much experience
with alcohol stoves?

Dear all,

In case it's useful to anyone, here's a great link from some
round-the-world cyclists. It tells you how to get meths or
an equivalent alcohol all over the world!

mark-ju.netmeths.htmOpen ↗

Ian

<Steve Orrell> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

"Crash Test" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I have to confess to always having always used a gas
stove in the field before now, but curiousity had been
sparked and the US style pepsi can stove
(pcthiker.compepsistove.shtmlOpen ↗)
got built. Frankly, I should have gotten a blue peter
badge!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Many designs about. Build them all and report back.

a la Lard; "No Neeeed"

hikinghq.netstove compare.htmlOpen ↗

Au contraire, what we need from you is a critique of that
comparison based on your experience of building them all.

Besides, nearly all designs use US cans. British cans
probably have slightly different dimensions.

Which stoves are cheapest to build in the UK? Americans
don't factor in the cost of tools since they all have huge
workshops full of power tools....
--
Mark South - Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!

<Steve Orrell> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

Trangia stoves use alcohol. Not the quickest boil, not
the lightest, not the most fuel efficient, but very very
rugged and reliable

Would this translate as "not the best"?

If rugged is important then they would be at or near the
top. Since the soda can stoves are quite fragile but
amazingly cheap to replace it may not be important.

Quoted message said:

(not a troll/deliberately obtuse question, just in reading
the above I was drawn to that conclusion, but since I'm
not a Trangia user I can't offer a definitive comment, but
am curious about the answer)

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
--
Mark South - Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Trangia stoves use alcohol. Not the quickest boil, not the
lightest, not the most fuel efficient, but very very
rugged and reliable

Would this translate as "not the best"?

Well if you need the quickest boil, the lightest or the most
fuel efficient stove then Trangia are not the best. But if
you want a stove that works every time without fuss or
bother and is safe to use within a tent then a Trangia is
well worth a look. Their design makes them extremely stable,
and they are the only stove I personally would consider
using within the porch of a tent.

--
Boo

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

a la Lard; "No Neeeed"

hikinghq.netstove compare.htmlOpen ↗

Au contraire, what we need from you is a critique of that
comparison based on your experience of building them all.

Ah, the ol' re-inventing the wheel approach to research ;-)

Quoted message said:

Besides, nearly all designs use US cans. British cans
probably have slightly different dimensions.

shucks y'mean even the Merkin cans of pop are biger than
ours? I knew I was born the wrong nationality!

Quoted message said:

Which stoves are cheapest to build in the UK? Americans
don't factor in the cost of tools since they all have huge
workshops full of power tools....

LOL, methinks you're whipping mountains out of hills made by
moles; the tools used are tin snips, pliers, sewing needles,
er, gaffer tape. No sticky-backed plastic tho', no tradition
y'see, that's Merkins for ye.

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
thenmc.org.ukindex.phpOpen ↗

NMC website: thenmc.org.ukthenmc.org.ukOpen ↗

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:06:36 +0000, Boo <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net>

Quoted message said:

Well if you need the quickest boil, the lightest or the
most fuel efficient stove then Trangia are not the best.
But if you want a stove that works every time without fuss
or bother and is safe to use within a tent then a Trangia
is well worth a look.

I'd have thought that the concept behind the alcohol burning
stoves means that there's buggrall to go wrong, irrespective
of the make. I think the Trangia's place in our market is as
much to do with the fact that it had no competition for a
long time along as well as that it works, is robust and
comes with a good range of complementary pots/pans etc...

I'm still pondering which lightweight stove to go for;
interestingly the Brasslite is said to outperfom the Pocket
Rocket when it comes to quickest boil.

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
thenmc.org.ukindex.phpOpen ↗

NMC website: thenmc.org.ukthenmc.org.ukOpen ↗

Steve Orrell said:

I'd have thought that the concept behind the alcohol
burning stoves means that there's buggrall to go wrong,
irrespective of the make. I think the Trangia's place in
our market is as much to do with the fact that it had no
competition for a long time along as well as that it
works, is robust and comes with a good range of
complementary pots/pans etc...

I'd say that another thing in Trangia's favour, as opposed
to the simple alcohol burners being discussed here, is their
neat system of using the wind to increase the burner's power
(except on the mini Trangia that I mostly use, where the
wind is a pain in the bum!).

Incidentally, in case it's useful for anyone, here's a
pretty good link on making your own lightweight
alcohol stoves:

hikinghq.netkitchen.htmlOpen ↗ (follow the 'stoves'
link on the left)

Ian

--
Remove the nice brown paste in my signature if you
want to reply!

<Steve Orrell> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

a la Lard; "No Neeeed"

hikinghq.netstove compare.htmlOpen ↗

Au contraire, what we need from you is a critique of that
comparison

based

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on your experience of building them all.

Ah, the ol' re-inventing the wheel approach to
research ;-)

Quoted message said:

Besides, nearly all designs use US cans. British cans
probably have slightly different dimensions.

shucks y'mean even the Merkin cans of pop are biger than
ours? I knew I was born the wrong nationality!

Quoted message said:

Which stoves are cheapest to build in the UK? Americans
don't factor in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cost of tools since they all have huge workshops full of
power tools....

LOL, methinks you're whipping mountains out of hills made
by moles; the tools used are tin snips, pliers, sewing
needles, er, gaffer tape. No sticky-backed plastic tho',
no tradition y'see, that's Merkins for ye.

A clear demonstration that irony is lost on some people.
--
Mark South - Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!

<Steve Orrell> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

Trangia stoves use alcohol. Not the quickest boil, not
the lightest, not the most fuel efficient, but very very
rugged and reliable

Would this translate as "not the best"?

(not a troll/deliberately obtuse question, just in reading
the above I was drawn to that conclusion, but since I'm
not a Trangia user I can't offer a definitive comment, but
am curious about the answer)

As the other posters have said, it depends what you want it
for. Alcohol burners are far easier to use and more
reliable than any other type of burner, because not much
can go wrong. They don't flare up, they don't need pumping,
the jet doesn't need cleaning, and the fuel doesn't peter
out when it's cold, or high (in altitude), or low (in 'gas
left' terms). AFAIK, the trangia is the only alcohol burner
(and I can't think of any other stove types either) that
gets better as the wind gets up, due to the very clever
design that pulls air up from underneath the burner.
Contrast that with any of the MSR stoves (for example) that
allegedly become more difficult to use in wind, and either
require you to buy a separate wind shield, or make your own
out of tin foil.

Over the summer I invested in a simple & light gas cartridge
burner. It certainly boils water quicker, and is more easily
controlled during fine weather when there isn't any wind,
but was highly unreliable exactly when I needed it, in the
(very very slight) wind and (mild) cold of a Brecon forest
bivvy a few weeks ago. On full blast, it took about 20
minutes, and almost 100% of my attention, to get a small pan
of water mildly warm - which made keeping fed and getting my
shelter up considerably more difficult. For trips like that,
where I need reliability above all else, I'm going back to
my Trangia because I know it'll work in any conditions
thrown at it, and I can just set it up to cook while I go
off and do other things.

Having been considerably disappointed with about gas
burners, I'd be interested in other people's experiences of
multifuel/petrol/kerosene burners; IMHO the biggest
advantage they impart is for 3+ day trips, where the
relative inefficiency and unavailability of alcohol for
fuel can be a logistical problem; but I suspect that they
too require considerable attention, and degrade
substantially in the wind.

Quoted message said:

Besides, nearly all designs use US cans. British cans
probably have slightly different dimensions.

Small differences in the dimentions of the cans make little
difference to the stoves - the priciples are pretty much the
same. For the Photon stove (see below), for example, all you
require is a closed vessel that conducts heat.

Brass you no doubt be better, but steel cans are just a
little more common. The dimentions of the internal chamber
will dictate the alcohol pressure as it vapouises, but
that's also going to be influenced by the amount of alcohol
and level of heat. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Other stoves (like the Cat stove) work on different
priciples and use an open system. They work (as far as i
understand it) on convection currents, with the heat of the
tin drawing air up from the base before it mixes with the
alcohol at the top where it will be alite..

Changes to the design are all part and parcel of the
process.

What i would like ti know more about is the stove tops. Most
designs just copy the number and dimentions of the holes
from one stove type to another, with no reference to where
this originally came from.

This would no doubt have a significant impact on the
efficiency, but there appears to be little discussion of it
that i can find. (Well so far anyway!)

Quoted message said:

Which stoves are cheapest to build in the UK? Americans
don't factor in the cost of tools since they all have huge
workshops full of power tools....

Well here's a collection of the stoves if you want to try
your hand!!!

wings.interfree.itmain.htmlOpen ↗

Of the three that I've made (Pepsi can, Photon stove, and
Cat stove) none are hard and none require much in the way of
tools! The only tools that i used were a stanley blade, pair
of scissors, pliers, and a sewing needle or 1mm drill.

Happy building!

Quoted message said:

Over the summer I invested in a simple & light gas
cartridge burner. It certainly boils water quicker, and is
more easily controlled during fine weather when there
isn't any wind, but was highly unreliable exactly when I
needed it, in the (very very slight) wind and (mild) cold
of a Brecon forest bivvy a few weeks ago. On full blast,
it took about 20 minutes, and almost 100% of my attention,
to get a small pan of water mildly warm - which made
keeping fed and getting my shelter up considerably more
difficult. For trips like that, where I need reliability
above all else, I'm going back to my Trangia because I
know it'll work in any conditions thrown at it, and I can
just set it up to cook while I go off and do other things.

Yep, that windshield design certainly pays for a multitude
of sins (mainly weight-related ones ;-).

Quoted message said:

Having been considerably disappointed with about gas
burners, I'd be interested in other people's experiences
of multifuel/petrol/kerosene burners;

I have an Optimus Nova multifuel stove and it works well,
particularly when Coleman fuel is available. On my most
recent trip I could only find "Petrol Desaromatise"
(whatever tf that is ?) and it made it harder to prime (this
worstened with time oddly enough, but the effect disappeared
when I switched back to CF).

Having acquired a bit of practise with the stove, and using
CF as fuel, I use a simplified start procedure that
eliminates priming almost completely - just pump, turn the
knob very slightly open for a second then close it, ignite,
and when the burner starts to work open it veeery slowly and
there you are. It's still more effort than a gas burner but
only a little.

IMO the biggest downside with one of these stoves is the
excess weight cf a gas or ultralight meths stove. In future
for lightweight trips I intend to take both my Brasslight
and also a gas stove so hopefully should be able to find
something to cook with. This combination will still be
lighter than the Nova, but does depend on being able to
resupply at reasonable intervals. If you are going to be far
from all possible supply points for a protracted period (say
2 weeks or so) then a multifuel stove will end up being the
lightest option just because they are so fuel efficient.

Quoted message said:

IMHO the biggest advantage they impart is for 3+ day
trips, where the relative inefficiency and unavailability
of alcohol for fuel can be a logistical problem; but I
suspect that they too require considerable attention, and
degrade substantially in the wind.

Well, a windshield would be a definite advantage but I did
without on one long trip and didn't really suffer. I stayed
mainly in huts though and obviously they are pretty well
sheltered so ymmv.

hth,

--
Boo

Boo boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Well, a windshield would be a definite advantage but I did
without on one long trip and didn't really suffer. I
stayed mainly in huts though and obviously they are pretty
well sheltered so ymmv.

I find that I can always use my rucksack/coat/whatever as a
windshield. I've certainly never really needed to carry a
separate item just for that purpose, which is rather
contrary to the principles of lightweight hiking!

Ian

--
Remove the nice brown paste in my signature if you
want to reply!

"Ian Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-03-23 21:04:20 +0000, Boo

boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Well, a windshield would be a definite advantage but I
did without on one long trip and didn't really suffer. I
stayed mainly in huts though and obviously they are
pretty well sheltered so ymmv.

I find that I can always use my rucksack/coat/whatever as
a windshield.

I would like to express a definite preference for
nonflammble windshields.

Quoted message said:

I've certainly never really needed to carry a separate
item just for that purpose, which is rather contrary to
the principles of lightweight hiking!

Hmmm. If your windshield suddenly gets touched by a naked
flame (a real risk) it should not ruin one's entire trip.
Sac or coat getting burned would be a major downer.
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

I find that I can always use my rucksack/coat/whatever as
a windshield.

I would like to express a definite preference for
nonflammble windshields.

Quoted message said:

I've certainly never really needed to carry a separate
item just for that purpose, which is rather contrary to
the principles of lightweight hiking!

Hmmm. If your windshield suddenly gets touched by a naked
flame (a real risk) it should not ruin one's entire trip.
Sac or coat getting burned would be a major downer.

That's funny - I at first included a line to the effect of
being careful but I thought it would go without saying! Of
course I'm very careful about that - I wouldn't stick
something right next to the stove. What I meant is that
popping a bag or something in the path of the wind, but at
some distance from the stove, seems to work ok. I *do* make
sure it's far enough so that a gust of wind from the other
direction wouldn't be able to blow a flame anywhere
dangerous!

--
Remove the nice brown paste in my signature if you
want to reply!

"Ian Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I find that I can always use my rucksack/coat/whatever as
a windshield. I've certainly never really needed to carry
a separate item just for that purpose, which is rather
contrary to the principles of lightweight hiking!

Carrying a stove at all is rather contrary to the principles
of lightweight hiking.