Adding Frame Braze-ons

BaCardi said:

Brazing is not that hard to do.

Making a mess of it is even easier!

--
Marten

If you are a craftsman-type you should be able to braze on cable guides. But it is also very easy,
especially with a small torch, to blow a hole through a bike tube. And if you get a larger torch it
is easy to overheat the tubing which can cause annealing and future cracks at the site. Unlike
people here are commenting, it isn't just a case of pasting on a small bit although if you have an
older SP or such frame they are pretty hard to hurt.

I find it amazing that there isn't a frame builder within 100 miles of you. I've never been anywhere
where you couldn't find a framebuilder if you looked. Hell there are 10 good one's in the SF bay
area here. Albert Eisentraut, Ed Litton, Berny Mikkleson, Chris Kelley, Tom Ritchey, Bruce Gordon
and Steel are just the better know ones.

"Grenouil" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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My opinion: Save your time, money, and frame; don't try

the

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mini-torch thing. Yes, some of them will get a couple

of pieces of

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steel wire hot enough to braze together, but the frame

tube of a bike

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is a much larger piece. In order to get the frame hot

enough with a

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torch that small and of that low temp, you'd have to

heat too large of

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an area, and the torch might never get the tube hot

enough to flow the

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alloy.

Most people are not capable of brazing something like a

braze-on onto

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thin wall steel tubing properly and I suggest you not even

try unless

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you're planning on throwing away the first couple of

tries.

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If you have a welding shop available that's known to be

trustworty,

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I'd say that it might be worthwhile to try them.

YIKES! DO NOT put ultra-thin wall tubing in the hands of

someone that

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sticks big pieces of steel together. You might be lucky

and get

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someone with finess. More than likely you won't. And for

your effort

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the frame will fail where the tubes were seriously

overheated.

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There are bicycle builders all over the USA. I'm sure that

you can

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find one in your area. They are reasonably priced guys who

don't earn

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a lot for exceedingly frustrating work.

And as "Werehatrack" points out, after they are through

the bike

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requires painting. So you ain't getting away with sticking

on

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braze-ons on the cheap.

If it is a frame you like and want to keep do it right.

Tom - please read my original post....

I have called just about all of the local bike shops in the Nashville area - only one could
suggest a frame builder within driving distance and they don't do add-ons - only make custom
frames. If you know of a good one - anywhere in central Tennessee, Southern Kentucky, or northern
Alabama, let me know....

It was 'Werehatrack's suggestion that I try a local welding shop.....

And the frame is ALREADY stripped to the metal - I intend to have it powder coated after I get the
other work done

If I try this myself, I would obviously do a few trial runs on a junk frame I have here BEFORE
trying the real thing

(john m schmidt) may have said:

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This is no problem for you to do !! Brazing is not that hard, its not black magic like some
would have you believe.

Ever heard of embrittlement with 4130 tubing?

Ever hear of using silver brazing rod and simply not getting the tubing that hot?

Use a really light flame and practice pulling the flame away from the tubing when it just starts
turning color.

Light color, no larger than needed to flood the spot of joining plus one thickness of the work, but
still oxy-acetylene and very hot, to localize the heating. Yes, been doing it that way for, oh, I
guess thirty yearrs? Silver solder melting temps vary, though; some won't flow below the point at
which steel is approaching cherry red. The low-melt alloy is not as strong as the alloy I preferred
for the type of repair I most often did, but it's doubtless far stronger than needed for this
application. There are a lot of different silver solders available, with some interesting
properties.

(I found a non-silver solder for aluminum a while back that works like a treat, but I lost track of
the source and I'm down to one stick.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

OK, so now that we know the pitfalls of adding after-the-fact braze-ons, what options have people
found for adding things like bottle bosses or cable guides w/o brazing? Esp. the bottle bosses, I'd
love to start carrying some water with me on my ancient frame.

(lhoffman) may have said:

OK, so now that we know the pitfalls of adding after-the-fact braze-ons, what options have people
found for adding things like bottle bosses or cable guides w/o brazing? Esp. the bottle bosses, I'd
love to start carrying some water with me on my ancient frame.

I briefly ran arcoss a source for a clamp-on generic thing mount; it was in the bargain closeouts of
an lbs. They may still exist. Aluminum bracket, about 6 inches long, with two clamps and two
screw-mount bosses.

If you think drilling holes in a frame is a good idea (I don't) then there's always rivnuts, but in
my estimation this idea emulates a vacuum cleaner. (Saw it done, and the user said it worked fine
and didn't cause a problem. I wouldn't do it on any but a thick-wall steel frame, though.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

With all this discussion about brazing on, has anybody considered alternative methods for
attaching stuff?

Maybe epoxy, or JB Weld?

Or a clamp? Okay, a clamp would be ugly, as well as terribly useless for cable stops and such. I
can't even remember WHAT was to be brazed on from the original post...
--
Rick Onanian

"lhoffman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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OK, so now that we know the pitfalls of adding

after-the-fact

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braze-ons, what options have people found for adding

things like

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bottle bosses or cable guides w/o brazing? Esp. the

bottle bosses,

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I'd love to start carrying some water with me on my

ancient frame.

Gaerlan - gaerlan.bizland.comcage.htmlOpen ↗
- have a clamp on water bottle cage. Or you could get the double bottle mounts that attach to the
seatpost - lots of on-line stores carry those.....

Don't do this. First, your temps for silver-brazing are way off. It's nearly as high as typical
brazing. Ishiwata 022 is a decently thin tube and will easily burn. You risk wrecking the frame. We
dis work like this in our shop all the time, and what I used is a basic propane torch with a fine
tip. Clean the metal perfectly, same for the braze-on bits. Use a high silver content silver solder.
NOT brazing rod Solder. It's quite strong and the temps are low. If you mess it up, no harm-no foul.
Start over. The loads experienced by these pieces are actually quite low, the surface area for
soldering is quite high. That's a good mix. I've had frames out there for 20 years and I had 1 left
derailleur shifter boss pop off 'cause I did a lousy job and only about 1/3 the surface actually
adhered. I was able to reattach by preheating the boss and didn't even damage the paint.

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Don't do this. First, your temps for silver-brazing are way off. It's nearly as high as typical
brazing. Ishiwata 022 is a decently thin tube and will easily burn. You risk wrecking the frame. We
dis work like this in our shop all the time, and what I used is a basic propane torch with a fine
tip. Clean the metal perfectly, same for the braze-on bits. Use a high silver content silver
solder. NOT brazing rod Solder. It's quite strong and the temps are low. If you mess it up, no
harm-no foul. Start over. The loads experienced by these pieces are actually quite low, the surface
area for soldering is quite high. That's a good mix. I've had frames out there for 20 years and I
had 1 left derailleur shifter boss pop off 'cause I did a lousy job and only about 1/3 the surface
actually adhered. I was able to reattach by preheating the boss and didn't even damage the paint.

Needless to say you're very wrong. If you don't know what you're talking about please don't say
anything. On the net nobody knows for real that you're an idiot except the people who really know
what they're doing. And it's far easier to retap an ISO BB Italian than to go thrrough the
rigamarole you advise. Phil Brown

"Phil Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Don't do this. First, your temps for silver-brazing are way off. It's

nearly

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as high as typical brazing. Ishiwata 022 is a decently thin tube and will

easily

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burn. You risk wrecking the frame. We dis work like this in our shop all the time, and what I
used is a basic propane torch with a fine tip. Clean the metal perfectly, same for the braze-on
bits. Use a high silver content silver solder. NOT brazing rod Solder. It's quite strong and the
temps are low. If you mess it up, no harm-no foul. Start over. The loads experienced by these
pieces are actually quite low, the surface area for soldering is quite high.

That's

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a good mix. I've had frames out there for 20 years and I had 1 left

derailleur

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shifter boss pop off 'cause I did a lousy job and only about 1/3 the

surface

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actually adhered. I was able to reattach by preheating the boss and

didn't

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even damage the paint.

Needless to say you're very wrong. If you don't know what you're talking

about

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please don't say anything. On the net nobody knows for real that you're an idiot except the people
who really know what they're doing. And it's far

easier

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to retap an ISO BB Italian than to go thrrough the rigamarole you advise. Phil Brown

What's 'retapping an ISO BB Italian' got to do with adding frame braze-ons?

I'm the original poster on this. We're discussing ways and means to add downtube shifter bosses (and
rear brake cable guides). Bikefixr has a valid point - try silver solder. I'm also investigating
epoxy for this as well. I have a test underway attaching steel bolts to flat steel plates. So far -
loaded to 12Kg - the epoxy works. But silver solder is something I want to try.........